2011.03.24 - Air Sample Expert Testimony

[Intermezzo]

You make some great points, I hadn't looked at it that way. Seemed to me most of the time JB didn't understand what Dr. Vass was trying to explain to him. If LKB hadn't quit she would've been the one doing the questioning of this particular witness imo. I could tell from reading several depos that JA not only understands the science involved but keeps up with the latest. JB just doesn't know any of this stuff and is ill prepared to do the questioning. There were times when I understood what Dr. Vass was explaining but JB didn't seem to that made me really embarrassed for him.

I was wondering why Sims was not questioning Dr Vass? other than Baez and his ego had to be front and center. :twocents:
IMO. Big chip on his shoulder, he has something to prove and he is getting a bit to sassy with talking back to the Judge..Very Unprofessional. :twocents:

 

[Intermezzo]

I'm such a science dork, I though it was pretty cool as well!
I :heart: science.

JB, on the other hand, obviously flunked science.
Repeatedly. :tsktsk:

bbm
I am remembering the article the Orlando sentinel did on him..Baez left or dropped out of high school in the 9th grade, had a child and got married at 17 and then went and got his GED...and so on.

 

[LambChop]

Yeah, students aren't allowed to use it as a source. But they must be teaching that young now!!

Kids today are so fast at picking up things from the computer. They may as well know what's out there, what they can trust, what they can't so they don't end up being a defense attorney who has no clue what he's talking about. lol

 

[Intermezzo]

Yeah, students aren't allowed to use it as a source. But they must be teaching that young now!!

I just asked her where she heard or learned that Wiki is not a good source her reply with a "duh" look on her face....sassy girl LOL
"mommy everyone knows that, my friends, my teachers, everyone knows Wiki isn't a good website"...there we have it everyone knows, well with the exception of Jose Baez Esq. it seems.

 

[logicalgirl]

I agree that she killed Caylee to spite Cindy. And I think it was partially in response to Cindy threatening to take custody of Caylee after the big fight.

But I think at the time of the initial computer searches Casey was fantasizing the murder of her folks.

I think ICA killed Caylee because she didn't want her in any part of her life ever again, including with CA and GA.

She wanted to be completely free.

 

[sumbunny]

Does anyone think Cindy may try to get up on the stand and testify she attempted to clean the trunk stain with nail polish remover (acetone) and bleach or some stupid thing?

 

[Horace Finklestein]

:maddening::maddening::maddening: Now I :innocent: have admitted my HUGE BIAS regarding this Ph. D in previous posts (NOPE, it isn't the "classic M.D. vs D.O. vs Ph.D vs DDS/DDM vs D.V.M." crap!) but challenging the "WIKI" definition of Dr. Vass as a "bio-chemist" was DUMB for the following reasons:
1. His ASCP certification ALONE requires a MINIMUM of 20 credit hours (academic,college course) in "mother chemistry" and then a clinical rotation in CLINICAL CHEMISTRY! UMMM, what I'm saying is MEDICAL TECHNOLOGISTS "know" chemistry-be it bio-chem, pathophysiological chem, analytical chem, organic chem , or YUCK, analytical chem.
PS: The degree requirements for a BS in "pure Biology" (aka what the heck can I do with this degree other than more school/research/"HOPE a lab will OJT train me") USUALLY requires at least 16 credit hours in chem., most students grab MORE to assist in getting a JOB! PSS: The is another facet of "bio-chemistry" totally ignored by JB: That which is covered in depth within advanced level BIOLOGY/MICROBIOLOGY/PATHPHYS. courses :seeya:




2. MS degree: A minimum of 42 GRADUATE semester credits here's a "taste" of the "chemistry/bio-chemistry" type courses and PLEASE NOTE the "weight" of the credit hours! BIOC/MICR 503 Biochemistry, Cell and Molecular Biology

3​

BIOC/MICR 504 Biochemistry, Cell and Molecular Biology

3​

BIOL 530/HGEN 501 Human Genetics

3​

BIOL/BNFO 540 Fundamentals of Molecular Genetics

3​

BIOL 693 Current Topics in Biology (molecular biology)

1​

CHEM 506 Introduction to Spectroscopic Methods in Organic Chemistry

1.5​

CHEM 606 Advanced Spectroscopic Methods in Organic Chemistry

1.5​

CHEM 630 Electroanalytical Chemistry

1.5​

CHEM 631 Separation Science

1.5​

CHEM 632 Chemometrics

1.5​

CHEM 633 Mass Spectrometry




CHEM 634 Surface Science

1.5​

CHEM 635 Spectrochemical Analysis 1.5


FRSC 670 Forensic Evidence and Criminal Procedure 3








FRSC 671 Instrumentation in Forensic Chemistry

3​

FRSC 673 Forensic Microscopy

2​

FRSZ 673 Forensic Microscopy Laboratory

1​

FRSC 675 Forensic Serology and DNA Analysis

2​

FRSZ 675 Forensic Serology and DNA Analysis Laboratory

1​

Gonna take a lot of course work & TIME to reach the magic degree #, eh?

Okay think I "hit" my point that the good Dr. KNOWS his way around a chem lab.......and definitely one with GC/MS since that instrumentation is utilized in the BOLDED courses!​

AND: HE ISN'T the primary "owner" of the sniffer! :banghead:​

It is intensely frustrating to hear him being questioned by someone who dropped out of high school and could barely pass the bar.

 

[Caligram]

Some undeniable damning evidence was left when Caylee was hauled out of that trunk and discarded like garbage. This decomp was noticed by far too many people, and ICA can't escape the awful terrible truth of murdering Caylee. The odor and the duct tape, what a chilling combination for the jury.
Dr. Vass provided some amazing testimony. His explanations were straight-forward and geared to the non-scientific mind so even I, a gramma, could get it. The jury selection criteria for the DT will be very interesting, to put it mildly. The fact that the DT is so very desperate to keep this likeable, fascinating brilliant man away from the jury is proof that they believe this evidence is credible. Cool, isn't it?!!

 

[LinasK]

..my 10 year old keeps telling me, whenever she see Wiki up on the computer screen, "mommy you can't believe what's on wiki..other people can post things there that are wrong, okay mommy"
.:innocent:

Mine just told me the same thing tonight!

 

[joypath]

Some undeniable damning evidence was left when Caylee was hauled out of that trunk and discarded like garbage. This decomp was noticed by far too many people, and ICA can't escape the awful terrible truth of murdering Caylee. The odor and the duct tape, what a chilling combination for the jury.
Dr. Vass provided some amazing testimony. His explanations were straight-forward and geared to the non-scientific mind so even I, a gramma, could get it. The jury selection criteria for the DT will be very interesting, to put it mildly. The fact that the DT is so very desperate to keep this likeable, fascinating brilliant man away from the jury is proof that they believe this evidence is credible. Cool, isn't it?!!

BBM! Pretty cool! You've essentially summed up Edmund Locard's (a or the "father of forensic science") floorlaugh: so sorry Henry C. Lee, but Edmund arrived FIRST:floorlaughtheory
Here's the crux of the matter in forensics:

"Wherever he steps, whatever he touches, whatever he leaves, even unconsciously, will serve as a silent witness against him. Not only his fingerprints or his footprints, but his hair, the fibers from his clothes, the glass he breaks, the tool mark he leaves, the paint he scratches, the blood or semen he deposits or collects. All of these and more, bear mute witness against him. This is evidence that does not forget. It is not confused by the excitement of the moment. It is not absent because human witnesses are. It is factual evidence. Physical evidence cannot be wrong, it cannot perjure itself, it cannot be wholly absent. Only human failure to find it, study and understand it, can diminish its value."

:rockerrofessor Edmond Locard :rocker:

:great: BTW: it's a quote from before the days of "uni-sex"/"PC" language so it does apply to female perps!:floorlaugh:
​

 

[logicalgirl]

BBM! Pretty cool! You've essentially summed up Edmund Locard's (a or the "father of forensic science") floorlaugh: so sorry Henry C. Lee, but Edmund arrived FIRST:floorlaughtheory
Here's the crux of the matter in forensics:

"Wherever he steps, whatever he touches, whatever he leaves, even unconsciously, will serve as a silent witness against him. Not only his fingerprints or his footprints, but his hair, the fibers from his clothes, the glass he breaks, the tool mark he leaves, the paint he scratches, the blood or semen he deposits or collects. All of these and more, bear mute witness against him. This is evidence that does not forget. It is not confused by the excitement of the moment. It is not absent because human witnesses are. It is factual evidence. Physical evidence cannot be wrong, it cannot perjure itself, it cannot be wholly absent. Only human failure to find it, study and understand it, can diminish its value."

:rockerrofessor Edmond Locard :rocker:

:great: BTW: it's a quote from before the days of "uni-sex"/"PC" language so it does apply to female perps!:floorlaugh:
​

Wow - thank you for that explanation!

As an aside - I've been watching a really cool drama on BBC about forensic pathologists (in Britain) solving crimes called "Silent Witness". I always thought it was a great name for the series, but now I know where the name actually came from - very impressive!

 

[Caligram]

Thank you joypath. I'm always learning more about the science of forensics on WS. It's such a fascinating tool in aiding to determine who has been good and who has done evil. I hope that many are encouraged by the horror of this case to join those who seek out evil. It surely would be a rewarding career.

 

[LambChop]

Actually who needs the damn machine anyway. We just heard a scientist who is well versed in his "sniffing" capabilities to determine whether or not it smelled like "there's was a dead body in the damn car" testify he jumped back two feet because of the smell of decomposition when he opened the jar with the carpet sample. Good grief, JB, ya had a hissy fit for nothing. The doctor said he smelled decomposition, plan and simple. The second dog handler said he smelled decomposition. Now if you put Bones' master back on the stand and what are the bets that she will say, "Yep, smelled like decomposition to me." In my opinion, and I'm sure the jurors will feel the same way....."the nose knows". jmo

 

[kushka]

Thank you joypath. I'm always learning more about the science of forensics on WS. It's such a fascinating tool in aiding to determine who has been good and who has done evil. I hope that many are encouraged by the horror of this case to join those who seek out evil. It surely would be a rewarding career.

Dr. Vass appearance in court last Thursday so impressed me that it might have inspired me to study forensics if I was 50 years younger, but since I am not, it inspired me in another way.

After watching Dr. Vass's testamony I looked up the University of Tennessee's Forensic Anthropology Center web page and liked what I saw; so have filled out the it is donation forms and told my lawyer and my oldest son that it is where I want my body donated.

I have always thought modern embalming and burial practices a huge waste and had considered donating my body to science, but had heard so many antidotes about medical students playing practical jokes with body parts of donated corpse to feel happy about turning my body over to a medical school. But after seeing Dr Vass and reading about the work they are doing from their website, I feel very good about furthering the study of forensics in this way.

 

[faefrost]

Actually who needs the damn machine anyway. We just heard a scientist who is well versed in his "sniffing" capabilities to determine whether or not it smelled like "there's was a dead body in the damn car" testify he jumped back two feet because of the smell of decomposition when he opened the jar with the carpet sample. Good grief, JB, ya had a hissy fit for nothing. The doctor said he smelled decomposition, plan and simple. The second dog handler said he smelled decomposition. Now if you put Bones' master back on the stand and what are the bets that she will say, "Yep, smelled like decomposition to me." In my opinion, and I'm sure the jurors will feel the same way....."the nose knows". jmo

Yeah, I just sort of noticed that. It's a win win for the state. Even if the actual air samples science gets tossed under Frye, they can still put Dr. Vass on the stand. He is clearly one of the worlds leading experts on the smell of human decomposition. His own observational "opinion" testimony is actually easier for a jury to understand, less prone to attack, and far more powerful than all of the graphs and charts. There was a clear chain of custody for the carpet sample sent for analysis. And a leading expert on the smells of human decomposition was driven back by the clearly identifiable smell when he opened the seals.

It almost makes the Frye hearing irrelevant, doesn't it? I mean think about it? You have

- The dog hits. Based on what we saw last week the dogs will be coming in to trial.

- Witness A, the victims ex LE, ex Homicide investigator father, tells both the tow yard operator and investigating LE what he smells. The quote from his police interview "please don't let this be my Caylee!" as he was opening the trunk says all you need to know. He clearly identified what that smell was.

- Witness B, The tow yard operator. He can back up GA's story and he can identify situations where he has encountered this smell before.

- Witness C, CA herself, in the excited utterance on the 911 tape. "It smells like there has been a dead body in the damned car!" i don't think more needs to be said.

- Witness D, Det Melich can clearly describe the odor he detected in the vehicle. (there may also be other initial LE officers as well)

- Witness E, Dep Forgey the dog handler of Gerus. In addition to his findings via the dog, JB managed to elicit from him, on the stand in open court, that yes he is truly expert at identifying the smell of human decomposition, can describe in great detail how why and where he is familiar with the smell as a result of his training and experience, and clearly indicates how his own human nose was able to corroborate the dogs findings about the vehicle.

- Witness F, and finally we come to Dr. Vass. Perhaps one of the worlds 3 leading experts on the the gases and odors emitted by a decomposing human body. One of the key top people at the world famous "Body Farm" where they do experiments on this sort of thing. And above and beyond any analytical scientific findings he is able to clearly describe what he himself smelled when he first encountered the sealed sample from the vehicle.

Stick a fork in the subject please, it's done. You can talk about peaks and test samples and spectrograph's all you want. But it will not make a difference at that point. The jury will have made their decision on the subject long long before the defense steps up to try and confuse things or claim junk science or argue about the secrecy of Dr. Vass's database. Actually in some ways it might be more powerful for the prosecution to opt not to use the scientific data and just have Vass talk about his observations. Boy wouldn't that be pee'ing in JB's cornflakes? anic:

 

[LambChop]

I think the clincher was Dr. Vass describing a skunk and how you don't need to know a skunk is there, you can smell it and you know it's a skunk. Everyone on the jury has smelled a skunk at some time in their life. And Mr. Squirrel, bless his heart, is odor free...must be all the chlorophyll he was eating.

Also I loved the dog handler when JB asked him about the garbage and he said yes he has smelled lots of garbage, dumpsters, etc. Not the answer JB was looking for. There are worse smelling things in dumpsters than was in that garbage bag of trash and you still would not confuse the smell of a dumpster with that of decomposition. I love it.

Genius, pure genius. Which side is JB working for now????? Wonder if CM will have little tuffs of hair missing from his scalp the next time we see him in court.....lol jmo

 

[logicalgirl]

I thought it was kind of interesting over at the Hinky that Valhall is :waitasec: if the chloroform is a by product - or off gas - of some kind of bug spray/pesticide "someone" sprayed into the trunk to get rid of any flies or bugs....

 

[flourish]

I thought it was kind of interesting over at the Hinky that Valhall is :waitasec: if the chloroform is a by product - or off gas - of some kind of bug spray/pesticide "someone" sprayed into the trunk to get rid of any flies or bugs....

I can't remember which thread, exactly, but I remember us talking here about pesticides...

Also, didn't LE take some pesticide sprayer things from the A's house/shed/garage?

 

[strach304]

I thought it was kind of interesting over at the Hinky that Valhall is :waitasec: if the chloroform is a by product - or off gas - of some kind of bug spray/pesticide "someone" sprayed into the trunk to get rid of any flies or bugs....

Another prime example of every time this DT tries to contribute something exculpatory they fall flat on their face. They have to try, I realize that. There is overwhelming evidence of guilt that they cannot overcome.

 

[strach304]

I can't remember which thread, exactly, but I remember us talking here about pesticides...

Also, didn't LE take some pesticide sprayer things from the A's house/shed/garage?

I'm pretty sure there was a power wash sprayer, pesticide sprayer, vacuums, etc. I do know we had threads here for both chloroform and grave wax. Cleaning products and pesticides were discussed for the chloroform and soap and cosmetics for the grave wax.