2011.06.17 TRIAL Day Twenty-one (Afternoon Session)
- Thread starter beach
- Start date
- Status
TotallyObsessed
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,096
- Reaction score
- 1
I can almost feel this spanking. #caseyanthonyby jimlichtenstein via twitter at 2:11 PM
Curious Me
Who When Where What Why & How
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2009
- Messages
- 27,627
- Reaction score
- 115,059
Something inside the salami package makes the witness wonder.
Mountain_Kat
Heca Firimar !
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2010
- Messages
- 13,966
- Reaction score
- 45,234
JA is mopping the floor with Dr. Huntington. It's almost...no, it IS...pitiful.
ExpectingUnicorns
. . . only the pure of heart can see.
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2008
- Messages
- 4,617
- Reaction score
- 3,229
In not readily admitting that the spit can never smell like a dead person, I believe he has demonstrated to us and the jury, that his testimony is quite biased. He did not seem to hesitate and insist on so many, if any, qualifiers on the defense questions.
mombomb
New Member
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2008
- Messages
- 1,437
- Reaction score
- -3
SIDEBAR #5(1:59-2:02)
DIRECT EXAMINATION OF DR. HUNTINGTON BY JB - continued
Indicators of what would lead you to believe the body was moved - the soil?
When a body decomposes, the body fluids come out of the body, and when it is outdoors, the decomp fluids will leach into the soil and changes the animal community. It was also kill the plant community in the area. When examining sites of decomp, there are relatively emergent fields in science that are looking at the composition of the soil itself to determine if it is a decomp site. A lot of this research is done at University of Nebraska....
OBJECTION - SUSTAINED
JB - so there is a stain on the ground where someone would decompose? Yes.
Would that include a body in a couple of plastic bags? If there is no breach to the bags, entirely sealed so that no fluid can escape, then he would not expect to find anything at the site. If there are holes in bag, fluids would leak out.
Examining a death scene outdoors, the stain is something he looks at to describe the scene. If a body is found outdoors and there is no staining...
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
Because you spend so much time looking at decomposing bodies, you come to look for these things. Anything unusual stands out.
Any other findings that would support this conclusion?
Were there early colonizers in the canvas bag? 3 puparial cases of colonizing blow flies. The only early colonizing insects at the site were in the bag itself. This reinforces the hypothesis that the remains were moved. If you have a body that has moved after decomp has begun, especially in a bag or container, you would expect some of the insects that have made the transition to pupal stage to be physically moved with the body. In this case not finding them away from the body reinforces that. They should have been found all over the place around the body in much greater numbers.
JB conferring with CM.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY JA:
Do you suggest this body fully skeletonized at another location? No I did not say that.
When he says the body decomposed elsewhere, he is primarily referring to the early stages of decomp which would be the fresh stage, bloat stage and possibly early active decomposition. On a child he could not give number of days to go through fresh and blow stage. He did not have the data available.
Accumulated degree days - average daily temp minus minimum base temp. Some scientists erroneously feel you do not need to do that. Minimum base temp is - a temp where biological processes stop.
2 days - average temp of 90 - he needs to know the average base temp. 180 accumulated degree days.
What is the equivalency between 2 90 degree days and 2 60 degree days. 1 90 degree day would accumulate 1.5 60 degree days.
At the scene, how long do you believe this body was at another location before it was moved to Suburban Drive? It is a hard thing to say because it depends on the environmental conditions at that site. JA - assume hot outside like it is now - 95 degrees. How many days before body moved? Probably 2 to 4 days.
He agreed that from that point on this body remained at that location from that point forward - assuming the remains were exposed to those conditions and no intermediary conditions. The scene is consistent with that scenario? He is hesitating because it is consistent with a lot of other scenarios too.
He agreed the body was in another location previously. That location - there were early colonizers present on the body in very low numbers so they had some access.
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
The insects had access to the body in early stages of decomp because they were there, and then the body was moved at some point thereafter.
There is a definite window where early colonizers lose attraction to the remains. They are not going to colonize remains not favorable to their offspring. At some point the flies decide the remains are no longer attractive and that point can be very distinct.
He did not say they were washed off.
Why aren't the early colonizers there? This is due to postmortem movement. Why didn't they stay with the body? Due to what the body is contained in, possibly.
A couple of scenarios - first that the body was moved late in the feeding stages of the maggots, meaning the early colonizers had left the body in large number with only a few remaining accounting for those found in the bag. Second - large numbers of maggots were removed from the body and the body was then transported. Third - a large number of maggots, the body was placed into the bags and then moved.
Fourth - the body was inaccesible to the flies? The body had to be accessible to the flies because they were found.
Regarding the decomposing pig picture - how long did it take the flies to appear? It is not simultaneous.
It is not possible the body was kept for a time not accessible to early colonizers? Anything is possible. He then stated "yes".
He gave two depositions in this case.
Regarding Dr. Haskel's opinion as to the lack of significant early colonizers.... Do you recall me asking if you agreed with Dr. Haskel's opinion? Please read Dr. Haskel's opinion.
OBJECTION BY JB - OVERRULED
He was asked in his depo if there is anything in Dr. Haskel's opinion of the scene that he disagreed with. His depo answer said that his report was very similar or the same as what his report would look like.
He was asked if he now disagreed with Dr. Haskel's statement that the body had been kept somewhere where early colonizing was not available. He said he agreed with it, he was just expounding with other possibilities.
Is there something about the environmental conditions ....
OBJECTION BY JB - OVERRULED
Is anything different about the environmental conditions? No.
Would you agree with Dr. Haskel that the evidence was consistent with the body being deposited there in June of July of 2008. Yes.
Is this body was kept somewhere away from early colonizers during early decomp? Yes, it would smell and you would not be able to get the smell out. He agreed the smell of decomposition is very recognizable. He agreed you can't get it out. It would smell bad and that smell would be difficult to get out.
When you examined the Sunfire in this case in July of 2010 (2 years later) after the trunk liner was removed and there was no garbage in the trunk.....
SIDEBAR #6 requested by JB (2:36-2:39?)
CROSS EXAM BY JA continued
When he viewed the trunk in 2010, he agreed there was a smell in the trunk. It was fairly week. Knowing there was once garbage in the trunk, he could associate it with that. He has never left a bag of garbage in a car trunk for a week and did not have that experience.
He was hired initially on Dec 11, 20-08. He began the experiment in September of 2010 - not specifically for this case. He had occasion to get the junk cars and then asked if he could do the experiment. He told Defense that he was going to do it. He has wanted to do this experiment for a long time.
Other cases with bodies in trunks - no other occasions.
Opinions regarding bodies decomposing in trunks was not just from experience in this case. There are numerous case studies. He is not aware of any that specify a small child wrapped in blankets and stuffed in a garbage bag.
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
WHY DIDN'T YOU WRAP YOUR PIGS IN A BLANKET? He did not wrap the pigs because that was not what he was looking at in this experiment. There are other studies that look at pigs in a blanket. In a bag? He doesn't know if that combination has been attempted.
What he was examining in the experiment was the flies' accessibility in the trunk. He did not include the barrier of blankets, laundry bag or trash bags. However, he would still expect to see evidence in the trunk. If the flies can smell it, they can most certainly get to it.
1 study he looked at involved a body in a bag in a trunk. It was a body recovered in Europe where the head of a victim was placed in a garbage bag in the trunk of a vehicle. There are many studies that look at barrier efficiency. He did not mean to imply that there is no way the bag could be a barrier.
Why wouldn't a bag keep bugs out? If the smells can get out of the bag, that indicates that it is not air tight. If a fly can smell the odors of decomposition, a female fly will deposit eggs on the outside layer near the knot of the bag if they can't get in. Then, when the maggots hatch, they will crawl in.
Did you experiment on the effects of chloroform on attracting flies?
OBJECTION - outside of scope - OVERRULED
Did you experiment with chloroform?
OBJECTION - outside of scope - OVERRULED
No. He did not. High concentrations of chloroform can kill insects.
Hypothetical - body is in trunk for a day or 2
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
Hypothetical - individual is placed in trunk alive, dies in trunk, large amounts of chloroform on the body and in the air - effect of this on early colonizers? Because there has been no research on that specific topic, he doesn't know if there is a good answer. The chloroform has to be sufficiently high to displace the oxygen. If chloroform acts as most chemicals do that have been studied, the effect is very short lasting.
If you change the air, you change the colonizers?
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
Flies can detect parts per billion. Were there anything other than a complete displacement, the flies would still be attracted. He agreed there have been no studies of this.
The flies don't smell the odor the same way we do. They pick up on individual molecules that are emitted. Changing the content of the air, you would have to replace every single one of the volatile sulfur compounds that the flies are attracted to.
He acknowledges there are no studies with chloroform and flies.
Paper towels - what was on them? He does not know what was on them. He has a report that states that it was fatty acids.
OBJECTION BY JB - what report?
Page 7 of Dr. Vass's report. Fatty acids - like adipocere or grave wax. He did not examine the paper towels. He assumes Dr. Vass is correct.
Would the flies be attracted to adipocere? Yes, they would be. Yet, you think it is the tobacco spit they were attracted to, rather than the adipocere.
HHJBP - PLEASE LET THE WITNESS FINISH
He did not consider the tobacco spit as a little bit. The presence of the flies on the towel is not something you would expect to find if it was adipocere because they would not tend to pupate near their food source.
He was shown the photo which showed the container that contained the tobacco spit. He said that was one of several. He showed several tops of cans that were used as spittoons. He said you could see the remnants - everyone he has met that spits into a can and leaves them around - look exactly like that. He has photos on a computer. JA is now preparing to show him the actual items.
OBJECTION BY JB - wants JA to use photos instead - OVERRULED
He was shown Exhibit 136 and stated it looked like a can, but not one of the ones he was talking about. Exhibit 10 - that's what he is talking about -
OBJECTION BY JB - He wants to see the item.
This would have easily attracted scuttle flies. JA - there is nothing in the can. He would need a flash light or the can cut open. He was not sure if he had records that indicated the cans were empty. One could assume that a bag of garbage with tobacco chew in a trunk of a car would evaporate. Do you recall being told the cans were empty?
OBJECTION - hearsay - OVERRULED
He was shown the inventory and agreed they all indicated they were empty. No entomological remnants were found in the cans. There were photos that showed some ON the cans.
OBJECTION BY JB - witness should be allowed to see the pictures - OVERRULED
Tobacco spit does not smell like human decomp, ever? He could not qualify it with "ever". Saliva can smell like a full decomposing body? Not what I'm saying. He would not assume the tobacco spit to smell like a decomposing human person. Do you agree there was no food in the bag? He stated there is a photo of the salami container that shows something inside of it.
RECESS at 3:13 to 3:30.
DIRECT EXAMINATION OF DR. HUNTINGTON BY JB - continued
Indicators of what would lead you to believe the body was moved - the soil?
When a body decomposes, the body fluids come out of the body, and when it is outdoors, the decomp fluids will leach into the soil and changes the animal community. It was also kill the plant community in the area. When examining sites of decomp, there are relatively emergent fields in science that are looking at the composition of the soil itself to determine if it is a decomp site. A lot of this research is done at University of Nebraska....
OBJECTION - SUSTAINED
JB - so there is a stain on the ground where someone would decompose? Yes.
Would that include a body in a couple of plastic bags? If there is no breach to the bags, entirely sealed so that no fluid can escape, then he would not expect to find anything at the site. If there are holes in bag, fluids would leak out.
Examining a death scene outdoors, the stain is something he looks at to describe the scene. If a body is found outdoors and there is no staining...
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
Because you spend so much time looking at decomposing bodies, you come to look for these things. Anything unusual stands out.
Any other findings that would support this conclusion?
Were there early colonizers in the canvas bag? 3 puparial cases of colonizing blow flies. The only early colonizing insects at the site were in the bag itself. This reinforces the hypothesis that the remains were moved. If you have a body that has moved after decomp has begun, especially in a bag or container, you would expect some of the insects that have made the transition to pupal stage to be physically moved with the body. In this case not finding them away from the body reinforces that. They should have been found all over the place around the body in much greater numbers.
JB conferring with CM.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY JA:
Do you suggest this body fully skeletonized at another location? No I did not say that.
When he says the body decomposed elsewhere, he is primarily referring to the early stages of decomp which would be the fresh stage, bloat stage and possibly early active decomposition. On a child he could not give number of days to go through fresh and blow stage. He did not have the data available.
Accumulated degree days - average daily temp minus minimum base temp. Some scientists erroneously feel you do not need to do that. Minimum base temp is - a temp where biological processes stop.
2 days - average temp of 90 - he needs to know the average base temp. 180 accumulated degree days.
What is the equivalency between 2 90 degree days and 2 60 degree days. 1 90 degree day would accumulate 1.5 60 degree days.
At the scene, how long do you believe this body was at another location before it was moved to Suburban Drive? It is a hard thing to say because it depends on the environmental conditions at that site. JA - assume hot outside like it is now - 95 degrees. How many days before body moved? Probably 2 to 4 days.
He agreed that from that point on this body remained at that location from that point forward - assuming the remains were exposed to those conditions and no intermediary conditions. The scene is consistent with that scenario? He is hesitating because it is consistent with a lot of other scenarios too.
He agreed the body was in another location previously. That location - there were early colonizers present on the body in very low numbers so they had some access.
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
The insects had access to the body in early stages of decomp because they were there, and then the body was moved at some point thereafter.
There is a definite window where early colonizers lose attraction to the remains. They are not going to colonize remains not favorable to their offspring. At some point the flies decide the remains are no longer attractive and that point can be very distinct.
He did not say they were washed off.
Why aren't the early colonizers there? This is due to postmortem movement. Why didn't they stay with the body? Due to what the body is contained in, possibly.
A couple of scenarios - first that the body was moved late in the feeding stages of the maggots, meaning the early colonizers had left the body in large number with only a few remaining accounting for those found in the bag. Second - large numbers of maggots were removed from the body and the body was then transported. Third - a large number of maggots, the body was placed into the bags and then moved.
Fourth - the body was inaccesible to the flies? The body had to be accessible to the flies because they were found.
Regarding the decomposing pig picture - how long did it take the flies to appear? It is not simultaneous.
It is not possible the body was kept for a time not accessible to early colonizers? Anything is possible. He then stated "yes".
He gave two depositions in this case.
Regarding Dr. Haskel's opinion as to the lack of significant early colonizers.... Do you recall me asking if you agreed with Dr. Haskel's opinion? Please read Dr. Haskel's opinion.
OBJECTION BY JB - OVERRULED
He was asked in his depo if there is anything in Dr. Haskel's opinion of the scene that he disagreed with. His depo answer said that his report was very similar or the same as what his report would look like.
He was asked if he now disagreed with Dr. Haskel's statement that the body had been kept somewhere where early colonizing was not available. He said he agreed with it, he was just expounding with other possibilities.
Is there something about the environmental conditions ....
OBJECTION BY JB - OVERRULED
Is anything different about the environmental conditions? No.
Would you agree with Dr. Haskel that the evidence was consistent with the body being deposited there in June of July of 2008. Yes.
Is this body was kept somewhere away from early colonizers during early decomp? Yes, it would smell and you would not be able to get the smell out. He agreed the smell of decomposition is very recognizable. He agreed you can't get it out. It would smell bad and that smell would be difficult to get out.
When you examined the Sunfire in this case in July of 2010 (2 years later) after the trunk liner was removed and there was no garbage in the trunk.....
SIDEBAR #6 requested by JB (2:36-2:39?)
CROSS EXAM BY JA continued
When he viewed the trunk in 2010, he agreed there was a smell in the trunk. It was fairly week. Knowing there was once garbage in the trunk, he could associate it with that. He has never left a bag of garbage in a car trunk for a week and did not have that experience.
He was hired initially on Dec 11, 20-08. He began the experiment in September of 2010 - not specifically for this case. He had occasion to get the junk cars and then asked if he could do the experiment. He told Defense that he was going to do it. He has wanted to do this experiment for a long time.
Other cases with bodies in trunks - no other occasions.
Opinions regarding bodies decomposing in trunks was not just from experience in this case. There are numerous case studies. He is not aware of any that specify a small child wrapped in blankets and stuffed in a garbage bag.
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
WHY DIDN'T YOU WRAP YOUR PIGS IN A BLANKET? He did not wrap the pigs because that was not what he was looking at in this experiment. There are other studies that look at pigs in a blanket. In a bag? He doesn't know if that combination has been attempted.
What he was examining in the experiment was the flies' accessibility in the trunk. He did not include the barrier of blankets, laundry bag or trash bags. However, he would still expect to see evidence in the trunk. If the flies can smell it, they can most certainly get to it.
1 study he looked at involved a body in a bag in a trunk. It was a body recovered in Europe where the head of a victim was placed in a garbage bag in the trunk of a vehicle. There are many studies that look at barrier efficiency. He did not mean to imply that there is no way the bag could be a barrier.
Why wouldn't a bag keep bugs out? If the smells can get out of the bag, that indicates that it is not air tight. If a fly can smell the odors of decomposition, a female fly will deposit eggs on the outside layer near the knot of the bag if they can't get in. Then, when the maggots hatch, they will crawl in.
Did you experiment on the effects of chloroform on attracting flies?
OBJECTION - outside of scope - OVERRULED
Did you experiment with chloroform?
OBJECTION - outside of scope - OVERRULED
No. He did not. High concentrations of chloroform can kill insects.
Hypothetical - body is in trunk for a day or 2
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
Hypothetical - individual is placed in trunk alive, dies in trunk, large amounts of chloroform on the body and in the air - effect of this on early colonizers? Because there has been no research on that specific topic, he doesn't know if there is a good answer. The chloroform has to be sufficiently high to displace the oxygen. If chloroform acts as most chemicals do that have been studied, the effect is very short lasting.
If you change the air, you change the colonizers?
OBJECTION - OVERRULED
Flies can detect parts per billion. Were there anything other than a complete displacement, the flies would still be attracted. He agreed there have been no studies of this.
The flies don't smell the odor the same way we do. They pick up on individual molecules that are emitted. Changing the content of the air, you would have to replace every single one of the volatile sulfur compounds that the flies are attracted to.
He acknowledges there are no studies with chloroform and flies.
Paper towels - what was on them? He does not know what was on them. He has a report that states that it was fatty acids.
OBJECTION BY JB - what report?
Page 7 of Dr. Vass's report. Fatty acids - like adipocere or grave wax. He did not examine the paper towels. He assumes Dr. Vass is correct.
Would the flies be attracted to adipocere? Yes, they would be. Yet, you think it is the tobacco spit they were attracted to, rather than the adipocere.
HHJBP - PLEASE LET THE WITNESS FINISH
He did not consider the tobacco spit as a little bit. The presence of the flies on the towel is not something you would expect to find if it was adipocere because they would not tend to pupate near their food source.
He was shown the photo which showed the container that contained the tobacco spit. He said that was one of several. He showed several tops of cans that were used as spittoons. He said you could see the remnants - everyone he has met that spits into a can and leaves them around - look exactly like that. He has photos on a computer. JA is now preparing to show him the actual items.
OBJECTION BY JB - wants JA to use photos instead - OVERRULED
He was shown Exhibit 136 and stated it looked like a can, but not one of the ones he was talking about. Exhibit 10 - that's what he is talking about -
OBJECTION BY JB - He wants to see the item.
This would have easily attracted scuttle flies. JA - there is nothing in the can. He would need a flash light or the can cut open. He was not sure if he had records that indicated the cans were empty. One could assume that a bag of garbage with tobacco chew in a trunk of a car would evaporate. Do you recall being told the cans were empty?
OBJECTION - hearsay - OVERRULED
He was shown the inventory and agreed they all indicated they were empty. No entomological remnants were found in the cans. There were photos that showed some ON the cans.
OBJECTION BY JB - witness should be allowed to see the pictures - OVERRULED
Tobacco spit does not smell like human decomp, ever? He could not qualify it with "ever". Saliva can smell like a full decomposing body? Not what I'm saying. He would not assume the tobacco spit to smell like a decomposing human person. Do you agree there was no food in the bag? He stated there is a photo of the salami container that shows something inside of it.
RECESS at 3:13 to 3:30.
Bon
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 1,577
- Reaction score
- 1
Wishbone
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2009
- Messages
- 4,025
- Reaction score
- 19,656
I'm just watching this and it makes me feel embarrassed that his lies are so transparent
KenoshaKid
All the darkness in the world cannot put out a sin
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2009
- Messages
- 1,147
- Reaction score
- 0
Absolutely riveting.
- Status
DNASolves
Staff online
-
WS AdminAdministrator
Online statistics
- Members online
- 180
- Guests online
- 254
- Total visitors
- 434