2012.05.17 Doc Dump Thread

[Isabelle]

Sigh.

What is the gray object in the picture, just to the right of the midline? (not the sidewalk) Thanks

 

[wowitsdark]

I happen to have experience in dispatching and those are the exact type phrases they are taught to say. It is a polite way of saying, "DO NOT FOLLOW HIM"

Also, the dispatcher not saying anything until after GZ already left his truck is because the dispatcher most likely heard the wind and the running noises. As soon as the dispatcher determined that GZ was running after TM, he certainly gave him instructions not to do that.

Further, if he didn't care that GZ was following TM, he would have said nothing.

I respect your POV saying that GZ was trying to stop crime in his neighborhood, by profiling a young black male.

So it's a *polite* way to say it?

I don't doubt that is how dispatchers are trained, but the phrase is not pointed. If you are dealing with someone in a heightened state of concern - enough that they have called 911 - 'polite' statements that are euphemisms for pointed ones are a poor choice, IMHO.

People have said repeatedly that GZ was told to *stay* with his truck. I don't even recall reading in the 911 transcript that mention was made of his truck until well after he could no longer see TM and they were discussing where to meet.

 

[sleonardelli]

There is no witness that says she/he saw "them running."
There are however witnesses that describe the man on the bottom getting beat up.
So the idea that they somehow just fallen down is not supported by evidence as far as I can tell.

And there's another witness who says she saw GZ on top based on photos on the news as the "larger man". Granted, the Trayvon photos shown at one time were when he was younger and the defense can ask her to clarify but Trayvon was only 2" taller (according to the ME report) BUTabout 40 lbs lighter.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/vide...nd-on-what-she-heard-on-the-phone#pl-68832490

 

[sleonardelli]

How have you proved he caused the confrontation?

Nobody has seemed to answer this question.

The GF (ear witness) indicated Trayvon told her "He's getting close" before Trayvon asked GZ "Why are you following me" and GZ asked "What are you doing here". Then, she says she heard Trayvon say something like "Get off get off". http://www.orlandosentinel.com/vide...nd-on-what-she-heard-on-the-phone#pl-68832490 (1:42)

 

[sleonardelli]

GZ goal, as he indicated in his 911 was to detain. To keep TM from getting away. Why else call LE???? I do not think it was ever GZ's intention to get into a fight but it was his intention to keep TM from getting away and the minute TM started to move away, I believe GZ reacted by grabbing TM. That would account for GZ's injuries and TM's lack of them. It's possible they were not fighting but merely they fell and TM was trying to get away and GZ got hurt in the process. I think TM was shot because GZ had had enough and shot him. I think it was that simple. That would explain the witness saying she saw them running. jmo

The GF (ear witness) indicated Trayvon told her "He's getting close" before Trayvon asked GZ "Why are you following me" and GZ asked "What are you doing here". Then, she says she heard Trayvon say something like "Get off get off". http://www.orlandosentinel.com/vide...nd-on-what-she-heard-on-the-phone#pl-68832490

Sounds like GZ may have tried to "detain" Trayvon.

 

[saguaro]

BRBM.
Rudeness and entitlement? IMO, you can't get much ruder than beating the carp out of a stranger because he asked you what you were up to.

JMO, OMO, AND MOO

The "entitlement" word greatly disturbs me. Is it being used to bring home the idea of GZ being "white"? Therefore, he somehow felt "entitled"?

I've seen it tossed around a few times in OP-ED pieces online in regards to GZ and I don't get it at all.

IMO!

 

[sleonardelli]

BEM: good point
GZ was the one on the ground yelling for help. All the condescension and rebuttal in the world won't change that fact. The only thing to deduce from the fact that he was the one on the ground, is he was punched to the ground and his keys and phone were knocked out of his hands. TM didn't have any signs of being attacked. TM started it-maybe he wanted to get GZ's keys and take his car. Who knows. It just makes no sense that he'd jump him for no reason.

JMO

There is a witness who "believes" she saw GZ on top: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/vide...nd-on-what-she-heard-on-the-phone#pl-68832490

 

[Isabelle]

Sigh.

The gray object in the grass that is a light gray color has a marking on it that looks like the shape 'U', if you flipped the closed part of the U to the right. I see this shape near the southeast corner of the gray object that is almost a square shape. Does anyone else see this. GZ has the same imprint on the back of his head.

 

[saguaro]

How is it you shoot someone from 3 feet away...directly into their chest...and it's not considered a crime?
Who provoked who? TM was just walking home.
I guess I'm missing something.

PS- GZ was close enough supposedly to say he thought TM looked high. Wasn't it dark?

The shot was at very close range; 2-4 inches is what has been said.

Where did the "3 feet" come from??

IMO!

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Has Zimmerman's medical and EMT/Rescue reports been released?

Last two pages here.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

 

[Yoda]

The only person who had control over the incident that night was GZ. He had a choice to stay with the car, as directed, or get out and follow. He chose to follow with deadly results. It does matter in a court of law who "started" it when you have a dead body of a person who was doing nothing wrong, just walking home.

It was a gamble at best for GZ to get out of his car. GZ did not stop a crime, he created a homocide. Far worse than anything TM could have been up to with his Arizona drink and bag of Skittles. jmo

Through all of these posts and threads posters have been saying he should have just stayed in the car so it's his fault. I have to thank you because, for some reason, the way you worded the first paragraph made me finally understand where you, and possibly other posters, are coming from. Yes if TM didn't go to the store or wasn't suspended, etc it wouldn't have happened, but GZ had control- knowledge that he was possibly going to be face to face with TM if he got out of the vehicle. So GZ got to choose whether he was willing to take this chance while TM did not. Is that where you are coming from? That makes more sense to me.
I believe that GZ's rights of freedom to move as he pleases should be as equal as TM's. I don't think GZ should be considered responsible because he got out of the vehicle. I think whomever physically attacked the other first should be the responsible party. That being said when one is deceased and there are no witnesses how can that be determined? I don't know, but it doesn't seem like there is a way for the deceased to have his version heard unless the evidence can prove who attacked first. And that is not just for TM. Sorry for the rambling, just trying to work it out. Thanks again though.

 

[Isabelle]

The GF (ear witness) indicated Trayvon told her "He's getting close" before Trayvon asked GZ "Why are you following me" and GZ asked "What are you doing here". Then, she says she heard Trayvon say something like "Get off get off". http://www.orlandosentinel.com/vide...nd-on-what-she-heard-on-the-phone#pl-68832490

Sounds like GZ may have tried to "detain" Trayvon.

Sounds like an ambush to me!

 

[Sherbie]

Or stuff that Zimmerman was telling the 911 operator was not true. The clubhouse video should help along with George's statement. It has been implied that he lied in a statement and said Martin circled his car and beat his head repeatedly on the cement. It will be good to see all the evidence.

Given the ambiguity (or even potential pro-defense interpretation) of much of the evidence in yesterday's doc dump, I think the alleged inconsistencies in his statements must be the biggest factor in charging him with second degree murder. Depending on whether there are major or minor inconsistencies, his statements, IMO, will solidify a position for many of us who are still on the fence and potentially change the minds of some of us who have already decided.

 

[RR0004]

I disagree.

When someone tells someone that they don't *need* something, it doesn't mean that they don't *want* it or that it's unnecessary or that to proceed would be unwelcome.

My tired teenager was about to unload the dishwasher for me, and I said, "You don't need to do that."

Heck, it wasn't that it would be *unwelcome*. It was just that I felt that I could handle it better than he could.

He saw that I had a to-do list a mile long and said, "I can do it - it's not a problem."

GZ was present, in the neighborhood where a suspicious-looking stranger had just turned a corner.

Unless I am remembering incorrectly, GZ had not announced to the dispatcher that TM had turned a corner and disappeared from view. GZ just continued his description of what he was seeing as he commenced to move from his vehcile and walk towards the cut-through area.

GZ's eyes were on the situation, and he was in a better position to know what would be helpful to the policemen than a dispatcher who was just receiving remote information.

On a *typical* evening, GZ would have first seen TM while afoot, not from his vehicle. If that had been the case - that he was out walking his dog and continued to walk in the direction where TM had disappeared - would *that* have been a violation?

I was just in my county's court house...simply walking down a hall...when I saw 2 police officers walking with a prisoner in chains. I was no where near them, but the police officer looked back and said to me "you need to stay back". Do you think that I wouldn't? Do we know for a fact that the dispatcher wasn't a ranking officer? In my town, the guy at the mic is often a police officer.

 

[Yoda]

I don't think anyone has ever answered me when I have asked this, so if you know the answer, I would appreciate some direction here.

When was GZ directed to stay with the car? Did it occur while he was still in the the car? "Stay" to me indicates that he was *with* the vehicle and they told him to *remain* with the vehicle.

In hindsight, because of the way things ended up, it is easy to Monday Morning Quarterback and say that it was a poor decision for him to exit the vehicle.

If, however, TM had been someone with a gun and had murdered someone around the corner, or broken into a condo and raped someone or abducted a child, people would be complaining that he was too chicken to get out and keep tabs on the criminal and clamoring for laws that protect watchmen who intervene.

Example: tonya Thomas who just killed her 4 kids and the neighbor who is getting harassed because he had a gun and didn't go out there.

 

[wowitsdark]

How is it you shoot someone from 3 feet away...directly into their chest...and it's not considered a crime?
Who provoked who? TM was just walking home.
I guess I'm missing something.

PS- GZ was close enough supposedly to say he thought TM looked high. Wasn't it dark?

He said he was "This guy looks like he's up to no good. Or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about."


I think it was his behavior and not his appearance that made him seem suspicious.

 

[LambChop]

I don't think anyone has ever answered me when I have asked this, so if you know the answer, I would appreciate some direction here.

When was GZ directed to stay with the car? Did it occur while he was still in the the car? "Stay" to me indicates that he was *with* the vehicle and they told him to *remain* with the vehicle.

In hindsight, because of the way things ended up, it is easy to Monday Morning Quarterback and say that it was a poor decision for him to exit the vehicle.

If, however, TM had been someone with a gun and had murdered someone around the corner, or broken into a condo and raped someone or abducted a child, people would be complaining that he was too chicken to get out and keep tabs on the criminal and clamoring for laws that protect watchmen who intervene.

It's never the responsibility of a private citzen to put themselves or anyone else in danger. LE is trained to handle dangerous situations. GZ called on a non-emergency number so he knew LE was not going to repond as fast as if he were to call 911. But part of his instructions for NWP is to call the non-emergency number if they suspected someone and 911 if they witness an actual crime in real time. GZ is not security for the HOA. He's not LE. It was never his job to patrol the community, ever.

You can't assume everyone walking down the street is going to commit a murder and then try to prevent this "murder" by confronting someone and end up killing the suspect only to find out the next day they were just walking home from the store. We would not have very many people left. We'd be killing people left and right just because we thought they might be up to something or we did not like the way they looked. That is someone out of control. To me that was GZ. jmo

 

[RR0004]

The shot was at very close range; 2-4 inches is what has been said.

Where did the "3 feet" come from??

IMO!

All over HLN today...reporting based on documents released. Also said Trayvon hadn't touched the gun, nor did he have anything under his fingernails to indicate any kind of struggle.

 

[Isabelle]

The shot was at very close range; 2-4 inches is what has been said.

Where did the "3 feet" come from??

IMO!

I think the term was 'intermediate range'.

 

[jaded cat]

Huh?

I just see a right-angled mark on the top of his head. What "S"?

I see a right angled mark also. Didn't see it at all until the pic was turned sideways, now I can't unsee it.