4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #78

[PrairieWind]

With the continuing development of forensic sciences, the Courts have assumed the role of gatekeepers when it comes to admissibility. You can get into the details as deeply as you like on sites like The National Library of Medicine, which has an article describing the different analytical frameworks courts apply, and cases decided under those frameworks.

People who live in the American West will not be surprised to learn that Idaho has decided to go its own way on this subject, adopting a standard that seems much broader than other states and the US Court system:

"Idaho Rules of Evidence Rule 702. Testimony by Expert Witnesses.

A witness who is qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education may testify in the form of an opinion or otherwise if the expert's scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will help the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue."

MOO, BK will challenge expert analysis of DNA under this test, both as support for search warrants and as evidence for the inference that he was at the murder scene with a weapon. I note with interest that the lead investigator specifically asked the court to ignore the DNA evidence in its analysis of probable cause to arrest. I expect (MOO) this is a standard precautionary strategy, i.e. not wanting to rely too heavily on DNA in case there were errors in handling or processing that reduce its reliability and call the arrest and incident searches into question. But it could have other significance for speculative minds.

Most of the reported cases seem to support the admissibility of DNA expert testimony even when its reliability or relevance to a particular fact in issue may be questioned. After decades of reliance on DNA science, judges seem to prefer to let juries sort these issues. Again, MOO - and I am always prepared to be surprised...

The idea that dna and other forensics are settled and admissible is under scrutiny. We have seen the areas of bite mark forensics and footprint identification experts been almost totally debunked now. As has been said, the problem with forensic science is that it is increasingly about forensics with very little science. So Courts are increasingly being required to do the full Daubert test analysis before allowing testimony and this includes DNA. Dna tech is advancing and each new step has to be approved. That has been overlooked and is now being addressed. But the Court can NOT "leave it up to the jury to figure it out. That would be clear reversible error.

 

[CGray123]

The idea that dna and other forensics are settled and admissible is under scrutiny. We have seen the areas of bite mark forensics and footprint identification experts been almost totally debunked now. As has been said, the problem with forensic science is that it is increasingly about forensics with very little science. So Courts are increasingly being required to do the full Daubert test analysis before allowing testimony and this includes DNA. Dna tech is advancing and each new step has to be approved. That has been overlooked and is now being addressed. But the Court can NOT "leave it up to the jury to figure it out. That would be clear reversible error.

Is the Daubert standard applicable to Idaho, which clearly has its own, less stringent standard? I haven't thought of Daubert as a Constitutional standard applicable to all states.

Even under Daubert, judges have their role, but they make only a threshold determination whether the evidence can be considered by the jury under the standard. The jury is always the final decider as to the significance of the evidence, including the credibility of experts. Even though science has undermined experts who claim fingerprints or bullet striations are a "match" for evidence collected from the crime scene, this evidence is still commonly admitted across the United States. This is happening to DNA forensics, I agree. But I have yet to see a significant number of reported decisions barring the admission of DNA evidence in the absence of demonstrated mistakes in collection and processing.

 

[Boxer]

Idaho has modified Daubert.

Idaho Rules of Evidence Rule 702. Testimony by Expert Witnesses.

A witness who is qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education may testify in the form of an opinion or otherwise if the expert's scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will help the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue.
(Adopted March 26, 2018, effective July 1, 2018.)

 

[Balthazar]

He was TA'ing for Criminal Justice 101. One of the victims would have had to take that class at WSU, which we've never heard. Tutoring early on a Sunday morning seems odd to me, really. I've never heard of private tutoring by a TA (what a big chance for liability) esp. when it involves going to the student's house. Very unprofessional.

He needed to be in Pullman most mornings, for his actual TA job, which requires attending the class. Taking on a separate job tutoring some students (but not others) would be very much frowned on, most places I've worked. TA's have the rubrics and quiz answers, it's inappropriate to share with one student and not others (I'd see it as a kind of bribe, frankly). Both of these universities have separate, free tutoring through their tutorial centers.

All of the things22 because he parked there and walked to the library or whatever.

It's possible he met one or more of the victims in any number of ways. I personally believe he was trying to socialize with the undergraduate crowd, possibly drawn to UofI because he did not work there.

I do think that if anyone living near 1122 King was being tutored on a Sunday morning, that knowledge would be in LE/State possession by now. But the chances of any of the 150 or so CJ 101 students living in that neighborhood are, to me, very small.

Is CJ a cooperative or cross-listed program? The WSU catalog doesn't indicate that, IMO.


All opinion.

Thank you for your thoughts, 10ofRods

First year of grad school I tutored as a TA. It was assigned to TA's by our professors. Maybe it just depends on the university. We never went to the student's homes. We sat with the person we were assigned in class and we would meet them at the Library or Student Union when preparing for tests. We didn't have the test questions for that class in advance of the test.

We know BK was seen more than once at the Student Union building as reported by UofI students. We don't know why he was there. Tutoring could be one reason, delivering something for his professor could be another reason, it could be some sort of meeting - honor society for criminal justice or some club and I'm sure there are many other legitimate and illegitimate reasons he may have gone there. However nearly everyone goes to the Student Union at one time or another. Did he first set eyes on one or more of the victims there? It's possible but we don't know.

Did he park on or off campus? We don't know. To park on campus he would need the parking pass for both campuses. Otherwise, he would have to find a place to park on a street nearby. Did he park near 1122 King Rd one day by happenstance and become enamored of the fish bowl aspects of the back of the house and the beautiful women it contained? We don't know.

We do not know what time BK's professor's classes were. He might teach exclusively at night or online for all we know. We really know absolutely nothing of BK's schedule at all. However we do know BK was out late on at least 12 occasions near the King Road house. Does that mean BK's days started later? Again we don't know.

All just IMO.

 

[JerseyWasHome2]

In the PCA, DM is quoted by LE as saying she saw a "black clad" figure, and that is all it said about what he was wearing.

No telling what the black clad figure's outfit was made of.

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View attachment 417672View attachment 417674

Had anyone said what the interior house lighting conditions were at that hour? If I peeked out my bedroom door into a hallway that had no lights on at that hour, I’m not sure I could describe someone walking by me, and probably any clothing would appear dark. Were hallways lit to a degree from a distant light, like a nightlight in the hall, or perhaps someone left a kitchen light on that may have provided some sort of subtle light, or some other light source that may have provided some small glow?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Had anyone said what the interior house lighting conditions were at that hour? If I peeked out my bedroom door into a hallway that had no lights on at that hour, I’m not sure I could describe someone walking by me, and probably any clothing would appear dark. Were hallways lit to a degree from a distant light, like a nightlight in the hall, or perhaps someone left a kitchen light on that may have provided some sort of subtle light, or some other light source that may have provided some small glow?

Excellent question.

 

[Cool Cats]

s own way on this subject, adopting a standard that seems much broader than other states and the US Court system:

"Idaho Rules of Evidence Rule 702. Testimony by Expert Witnesses.

A witness who is qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education may testify in the form of an opinion or otherwise if the expert's scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will help the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue."

MOO, BK will challenge expert analysis of DNA under this test, both as support for search warrants and as evidence for the inference that he was at the murder scene with a weapon. I note with interest that the lead investigator specifically asked the court to ignore the DNA evidence in its analysis of probable cause to arrest. I expect (MOO) this is a standard precautionary strategy, i.e. not wanting to rely too heavily on DNA in case there were errors in handling or processing that reduce its reliability and call the arrest and incident searches into question. But it could have other significance for speculative minds.

Most of the reported cases seem to support the admissibility of DNA expert testimony even when its reliability or relevance to a particular fact in issue may be questioned. After decades of reliance on DNA science, judges seem to prefer to let juries sort these issues. Again, MOO - and I am always prepared to be surprised...

Video cameras and ATT Phone Records were used to show Probable Cause to get Search and Arrest Warrants, but what was the Probable Cause to get Search Warrants for the video and phone?

The reason the DNA wasn't used as Probable Cause for the house/apt./office/car Search Warrants and for the Arrest Warrant, is because if the DNA gets ruled inadmissible then it won't impact the finding of Probable Cause for those Warrants.

 

[10ofRods]

Spot on, @10ofRods!

Here for the rest of us is an article describing the ways DNA evidence improperly used or interpreted can result in wrongful accusations and convictions:

How Forensic DNA Evidence Can Lead to Wrongful Convictions

Have fun with that. It's not a juried publication and I can't make out the meaning.

There definitely are wrongful convictions, but I don't see much in that article that makes sense of it for me.

Anything improperly interpreted can lead to poor results. Not just DNA. All of life, I suppose.

IMO.

 

[WingsOverTX]

If I am reading this correctly, it sounds like BK was forced to resign in June 2021 from the school in PA where he worked, otherwise he would have to face a hearing with the school board regardig his dismissal from employment. I wonder why he was being fired.

That is one heck-of-a buried lead. Journalism 101 seems to be unpopular these days!
IMO

 

[Sleuth2010]

Perhaps, the next morning, BK was dressed in his best professorial clothes and hoped to sidle up to a journalist to offer his educated opinions about crimes of this nature and the minds behind them.

Only to discover no LE presence, no media.

Jmo

Because he thought he was smarter than everyone else, but he wasn't.

 

[Gemmie]

If I am reading this correctly, it sounds like BK was forced to resign in June 2021 from the school in PA where he worked, otherwise he would have to face a hearing with the school board regardig his dismissal from employment. I wonder why he was being fired.

Because he's a hot headed egotistical jerk? All MOO (and I'll bet some of yours too. )

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Because he's a hot headed egotistical jerk? All MOO (and I'll bet some of yours too. )

If you read the article, it doesn't sound like he was fired or forced to resign, IMO.

"“I decided to resign or retire freely and voluntarily after considering my options …” a district resignation/retirement form letter signed by Kohberger read. “… I understand that if I do not resign, I have a right to a school board hearing to determine if I should be dismissed from employment with the school district.”"

---

"Former Pleasant Valley security supervisor George Curcio hired Kohberger for his school district position.

"“He was a pretty decent worker, always there, not one of those guys who would show up when he wanted to,” Curcio said in a phone interview. “He was quiet in a strange sort of way, but nothing that ever really reared its head with us.”

@deugirtni posted excerpts here.

4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #78

In the PCA, DM is quoted by LE as saying she saw a "black clad" figure, and that is all it said about what he was wearing. No telling what the black clad figure's outfit was made of. However, there are disposable (tyvek-like) suits available in black, for $12.99 with free shipping, that are...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Twistinginthewind]

If I am reading this correctly, it sounds like BK was forced to resign in June 2021 from the school in PA where he worked, otherwise he would have to face a hearing with the school board regardig his dismissal from employment. I wonder why he was being fired.

If that's correct, @Sundog (though maybe he resigned so he could go back to college full time as an OP linked to a former coworker or boss of his saying upthread and that is it),<modsnip>

"Kohberger’s job, which did not include carrying a weapon, entailed working 8-hour shifts on Saturdays and Sundays as part of 24/7 security at the district’s four school buildings, Curcio said. When another officer called out, Kohberger often would volunteer to work an extra four hours on his weekend assignment, he said, shuttling between schools to ensure buildings were locked and utilities were operating properly.

“You’d drive up, check all the doors, hit the security button to show you’re doing your job, check the boilers, the air conditioners, school room doors, look for broken windows and open windows,” Curcio said. “So basically patrolling.”

Now, homicide investigators allege they have probable cause to believe Kohberger “conducted surveillance” on the off-campus rental home in Moscow in the months leading up to the four students’ deaths on Nov. 13."

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article274755381.html

 

[Sundog]

If that's correct, @Sundog (though maybe he resigned so he could go back to college full time as an OP linked to a former coworker or boss of his saying upthread and that is it), I would speculate he was caught surveilling girls or women at the school in some fashion, and it could have been deemed "harmless but inappropriate" maybe ?? Like they said if you just resign, we'll look the other way kind of thing.

What if he set up recording devices while alone working weekends, in the girl's locker room or bathroom or whatever, and collected the footage on the following weekend when no one was around and watched it on his shifts or downloaded it and watched remotely. It wouldn't be the first time this has happened, IMO. And he would have obviously had "the keys to the castle", and so could unlock and enter any building he wanted to at the school and do things when school was not in session. JMO. BBM:

"Kohberger’s job, which did not include carrying a weapon, entailed working 8-hour shifts on Saturdays and Sundays as part of 24/7 security at the district’s four school buildings, Curcio said. When another officer called out, Kohberger often would volunteer to work an extra four hours on his weekend assignment, he said, shuttling between schools to ensure buildings were locked and utilities were operating properly.

“You’d drive up, check all the doors, hit the security button to show you’re doing your job, check the boilers, the air conditioners, school room doors, look for broken windows and open windows,” Curcio said. “So basically patrolling.”

Now, homicide investigators allege they have probable cause to believe Kohberger “conducted surveillance” on the off-campus rental home in Moscow in the months leading up to the four students’ deaths on Nov. 13."

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article274755381.html

Seems there are different views on here as to whether or not BK was forced to resign, or resigned on his own for various reasons unrelated to any "issues" at the school. The article is certainly suggestive that he was forced into a resignation, but maybe it was pro forma to sign documentation when you resign in that school district.

If he was forced to resign due to some behavior at the school, who knows what the reason was. Could have been lots of things, sleeping on the job, taking long breaks, drug issues, etc. All are just speculation, of course.

 

[realanastasia]

What a bummer for his family, that he bombed out of his job at their school district where they were well known, if true he had to resign, jmo.

"Kohberger’s two older sisters attended the same school system, and their parents also spent lengthy tenures working there. Kohberger’s father retired in June 2019 after 12 1/2 years as a maintenance worker with the district, followed by his mother retiring in June 2020 after 16 years as education support staff, their school district personnel records obtained by the Statesman showed.

In the nearly four months since Kohberger was taken into custody, the Pleasant Valley School District has remained tight-lipped. That’s in spite of repeated requests for comment from more than a dozen media outlets, including the Statesman, according to email records, and the Kohberger family being well-known within the district."

https://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/state/article274755381.html

Sounds to me like possibly some employees resigned so that some forty of their fellow employees would not have to be 'furloughed', or perhaps just in support of them?

High school Principal Matthew Triolo and intermediate school Principal Todd Breiner are among 15 other employees whose resignations were also approved.

The others include Hillary Atkinson, a teacher at the elementary school; Bryan Kohberger, a security officer; three substitute paraprofessional associates, four substitute secretaries; five substitute teachers; and a casual security officer.
....
Aministrative positions were among those being looked at in May when the school district's former superintendent, Lee Lesisko, proposed furloughing 40 employees.

After his abrupt retirement in early June, the school board rescinded the possible furloughs. The school board said furloughs were not completely off the table, but were not being considered at this time. They wanted to wait see if enrollment numbers would return to pre-pandemic levels.

Pleasant Valley loses 2 principals | Times News Online

The Pleasant Valley School Board approved the resignations of both the high school and intermediate school principals at its meeting on Thursday night. High school Principal Matthew Triolo and interm...

www.tnonline.com

Link to the PV school board minutes from July 15 2021 listing BK as one of three people who resigned. The funny thing is, a school board member is recorded in these minutes as saying that the resignations of the other 2 people (not BK) were a great loss to the district!

Also interesting is that these minutes note that a private executive session to discuss “personnel issues, including performance and disciplinary actions, negotiations and legal actions” was held prior to the public school board meeting on that date. Those minutes, which I think are not accessible to the public, might help explain if BK’s resignation was, indeed, truly and completely voluntary.

https://www.pvbears.org/cms/lib/PA01001117/Centricity/Domain/4/2021-7-15%20Approved%20Minutes.pdf

 

[whiterhino]

If you read the article, it doesn't sound like he was fired or forced to resign, IMO.

"“I decided to resign or retire freely and voluntarily after considering my options …” a district resignation/retirement form letter signed by Kohberger read. “… I understand that if I do not resign, I have a right to a school board hearing to determine if I should be dismissed from employment with the school district.”"

---

"Former Pleasant Valley security supervisor George Curcio hired Kohberger for his school district position.

"“He was a pretty decent worker, always there, not one of those guys who would show up when he wanted to,” Curcio said in a phone interview. “He was quiet in a strange sort of way, but nothing that ever really reared its head with us.”

@deugirtni posted excerpts here.

4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #78

In the PCA, DM is quoted by LE as saying she saw a "black clad" figure, and that is all it said about what he was wearing. No telling what the black clad figure's outfit was made of. However, there are disposable (tyvek-like) suits available in black, for $12.99 with free shipping, that are...

www.websleuths.com

The letter BK wrote says "freely and voluntarily after considering my options".

Sounds like he chose to leave so why would there need to be a hearing to determine if BK should be dismissed from his job with the school?

I read a few pages back that there was something going on at the school during the same time that BK submitted his resignation. ATM cannot recall details but several other employees of the school also resigned around the same time IIRC. *see @realanastasia post above

 

[maconrich]

I wouldn't be overly unhappy if a fmr employer described me this way, and it sure doesn't throw up any red or even yellow flags for me...

"Former Pleasant Valley security supervisor George Curcio hired Kohberger for his school district position. He told the Statesman that he remembered Kohberger as reserved, courteous and polite — a reliable employee for whom he couldn’t recall ever receiving a complaint."

Read more at: https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article274755381.html#storylink=cpy

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

The letter BK wrote says "freely and voluntarily after considering my options".

Sounds like he chose to leave so why would there need to be a hearing to determine if BK should be dismissed from his job with the school?

I read a few pages back that there was something going on at the school during the same time that BK submitted his resignation. ATM cannot recall details but several other employees of the school also resigned around the same time IIRC. *see @realanastasia post above

It's not a letter he wrote. The article says that it's a letter he signed, not wrote. That's why I bolded "form letter." That's important. Form letters are pre-written and standardized, though we don't know what this particular one was standardized for (all resignations vs those that involved possible termination? We don't know). I also thought he was forced to resign initially, but I'm not so sure now, given his boss is quoted as saying about him: "a reliable employee for whom he couldn’t recall ever receiving a complaint."

That doesn't sound like an employee who was fired or forced to resign, especially for anything major. I think it's impossible to know for sure until we have more information, but that's my take. I'll also point out that the article states the only records held back were those dealing with a number of unreportable things, including non-criminal matters. So if there's some deep, dark secret here, I highly doubt it's anything illegal.

MOO.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

I agree with all points of view that BK's leaving his job at his former High School as a weekend patrolman/security guard could have or could not have been anything sketchy on the face of it.

This is all speculation (TIAS):

I just wonder if people in power at his former High School have been refusing to divulge any details about him leaving that position to the media (understandable, they gave records to LE, and really, why stir things up more than they already are) because they are being sensible and avoiding speculation and further media speculation and/or following legal counsel and/or LE guidance ?

Or they don't want to be made to look bad if they let him off on something untoward, and then, well, he ended up committing these horrible crimes, allegedly, and they don't want any flack for anything he did while he was working at their school under their auspices.

Like red flags... not saying red flags are ever necessarily actionable, but they do seem to be cumulative and in the end, if a criminal had those red flags around their behavior, that could bring questions about "concerning behavior" not being addressed.

Sad situation all around, IMO. Red flags, green flags, go dog go

JMO

 

[U.N. Known]

I agree with all points of view that BK's leaving his job at his former High School as a weekend patrolman/security guard could have or could not have been anything sketchy on the face of it.

I just wonder if people in power at his former High School have been refusing to divulge any details about him leaving that position to the media (understandable, they gave records to LE, and really, why stir things up more than they already are) because they are being sensible and avoiding speculation and further media speculation and/or following LE guidance, or they have something to hide and don't want to be made to look bad if they let him off on something untoward, and then, well, he ended up committing these horrible crimes, allegedly, and they don't want any flack for anything he did while he was working at their school under their auspices.

Like red flags... not saying red flags are ever actionable, but they do seem to be cumulative and in the end, if a criminal had those red flags around their behavior, that could bring questions about weird behavior and looking the other way sometimes.

JMO

If they are like most employers, the aren't saying more because they don't want to be sued. Most employers limit their comments to "yes, he worked here from ___ until ____" If pressed, they may respond to whether or not the person is eligible for rehire.

That the person who hired him was willing to say something positive and do so on the record is actually a green flag.