4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #78

[Cool Cats]

And you might be right. And he might have thrown a second or third curtain out during the month between Nov 13 & Dec 13 or so. But he could have tossed shower curtains for other reasons than fear of crime scene contamination. Or he might not have liked using a shower curtain at all. Depending on the type of shower head and the showering style of the person, it may be possible to forego a curtain without getting water everywhere. There's just a lot we don't know about BK's habits and his psyche.

Honestly if he did replace the curtain because he was worried the first curtain might have crime scene evidence and then he got rid of curtain #2 for the same reason, I'm surprised he left the bed pillow that apparently contained visible stains.
JMO

Because he left visible stains I wonder if this was deliberate.

Red Herring so to speak.

 

[U.N. Known]

And you might be right. And he might have thrown a second or third curtain out during the month between Nov 13 & Dec 13 or so. But he could have tossed shower curtains for other reasons than fear of crime scene contamination. Or he might not have liked using a shower curtain at all. Depending on the type of shower head and the showering style of the person, it may be possible to forego a curtain without getting water everywhere. There's just a lot we don't know about BK's habits and his psyche.

Honestly if he did replace the curtain because he was worried the first curtain might have crime scene evidence and then he got rid of curtain #2 for the same reason, I'm surprised he left the bed pillow that apparently contained visible stains.
JMO

And there was no blood evidence in the drains.

 

[Cool Cats]

Like everyone else, I'm guessing, but I have an inkling that the Trespass letter is related to the murder charges and the negative publicity associated with it due to BK's position.

IIRC, his profile as a TA was still live until just after the arrest was announced (can anyone confirm or disprove?). Clearly, it does not truly make a difference to me if he was or was not relieved of his TA position; however, if he was, it seems odd that the university would leave BK's information on their site for the twoish weeks between the dated letter out there when he was fired and the PCAs release.

Has anyone compared the verfiable letter from WSU in the latest document release to the other letter posted about BK's firing?

Can you post some links for me?

Thanks so much!

1.) Trespass letter
2.) Verfiable letter from WSU in the latest document release

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Another thing that fits with no shower curtain is an (alleged) killer going home after driving to various Idaho towns - from PCA - and ditching "murder kit" items including bloody clothes, then going home to shower and after rinsing shower area leaving some blood - according to new information - THROWS AWAY THE SHOWER CURTAIN TO GET RID OF EVIDENCE.

I'm confused. Where are you seeing that he left blood in the shower? Please cite.

 

[NCWatcher]

Because he left visible stains I wonder if this was deliberate.

Red Herring so to speak.

Seems unlikely to me but I guess anything is possible. I wouldn't think though that finding a person's own blood in his own home would be much of a red herring in an investigation. And unless he purchased a brand-new pillow to put the stains on, IF he actually worried a brand-new shower curtain could be stained weeks later after the crime (curtain #2 or #3) I'd think he'd worry about the pillow.

I'm just not convinced the missing curtain means anything related to the crime although it might. But if we think BK must have had a curtain because his dad helped him set up the apt, I wonder what he told his dad about the missing curtain in Dec?
JMO

 

[10ofRods]

Right!!!

I got ahead of myself. He was still there for a month.

So I have to rethink my theory. My theory is that he threw out the curtain to hide possible blood evidence but then why not replace the curtain? He would need a new curtain to shower.

I think he would have replaced the curtain, LE can look at his bank records for possible purchases - and then I think to be extra careful he threw out the newer curtain also..

I'm stuck on him throwing it out because I don't think it is realistic that he only took baths and not realistic to shower without the curtain. Plus his dad helped him set up his apartment so I believe he would definitely have used shower curtains.

If someone uses shower curtains and their shower curtain is missing, I believe they threw it out.

If I thought there was blood evidence in my bathroom, I probably wouldn't mind getting water all over the floor, and then wiping it up (and if I were compulsive, I'd do it with paper towels and get rid of all of it). Over and over. Like Lady Macbeth.

IMO.

Sounds very reasonable. MOO also there might be conflict about letting the weapon go.

According to Prof B., BK's favorite theories of criminal behavior were Rational Choice Theory and Script Theory.

So I keep trying to think what a Super Reasoner would do, having completed his rationally planned crime via his careful script. I never get far in my imagination, because just the things he'd have needed to do with his car (to keep blood evidence from getting everywhere) require some purchases and planning.

But let's just say that he went on home to Pullman after the murders, via that loop route, checking out what he could see as the sun came up, of the country out there. All of his kill stuff is still in his car at that point.

One goal he must have had was to remove all blood evidence from his own person (and get rid of whatever secondary clothing, if any, he might have had). So it does make sense that he might do a big evidence dump (or a smaller secondary dump) in that second drive on Sunday (the one where he arrives at 1122 King at around 9 am and then in Clarkston at noonish). Clarkston is only about 40 minutes from 1122 King, and then it's about 40 minutes back to Steptoe Apts. I wonder why it took him about 3 hours to get to Clarkston after leaving 1122 that Sunday morning.

Anyway, surely he had driven that route before? To check out possibly evidence dumping spots to put into his "script"? His theory doesn't account for mistakes such as leaving behind the sheath (or being seen doing a 3 point turn to go back to the house), but what does a Rational Choice person do in this case? He knew they'd be after his DNA (and it surprising how few hairs they found in his apartment - lots of cleaning). He obviously cleaned his car (many times). It wasn't reasonable to take his phone with him, though. I wonder why that was part of his script, I really do.

IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I think SG feels he's not allowed to speak as freely as he wants. Of COURSE they can do a charity (and I believe they have) but maybe SG wants to do speaking tours. I have no clue.

Do you think he's permitted to go about and speak about what he already knows about the case? From my POV, he's not bound by the gag order, but maybe his attorneys have said something else to him.

Isn't he the one who is bringing the motion? Maybe he's challenging the notion that the State's lawyers are no longer speaking to him about the case, which he feels he needs to move forward with his project.

I dunno. But there must be some reason, right? Why do you think there's the challenge?

But you said they can't set up foundations because of the gag order. There's no evidence to suggest that. IMO, I'd clear that up in that post because it can cause confusion.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Because he left visible stains I wonder if this was deliberate.

Red Herring so to speak.

I think so.... to have visible reddish brown stains on several surfaces that were not blood and the only blood on his bedding (and presumably his), it looks like a ruse to me, set up for appearances sake.

It made it into the news that LE saw all these reddish brown stains in his apartment, and took samples to see if it was blood, but gosh, none of it was, except some blood on his bedding, and that could be there from any little old thing like a nosebleed or cut.

Nothing to see here, folks !

JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

I'm confused. Where are you seeing that he left blood in the shower? Please cite.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/1683289681760-png.419775/

Red stain in shower.

I think it actually tested negative for blood. I am trying to verify, this link isn't the full page.

 

[NCWatcher]

I think so.... to have visible reddish brown stains on several surfaces that were not blood and the only blood on his bedding (and presumably his), it looks like a ruse to me, set up for appearances sake.

It made it into the news that LE saw all these reddish brown stains in his apartment, and took samples to see if it was blood, but gosh, none of it was, except some blood on his bedding, and that could be there from any little old thing like a nosebleed or cut.

Nothing to see here, folks !

JMO

So are you suggesting that in addition to intentionally bleeding on his pillow BK created all those fake blood spots? For example, apparently there was a stain near the curtain rod on one side. It was tested & was not blood, and to me, it sounded like it could be a small rust stain. Do we think he created stains like that?
JMO

 

[U.N. Known]

Can you post some links for me?

Thanks so much!

1.) Trespass letter
2.) Verfiable letter from WSU in the latest document release

I'll try to find the link to the letter. I have no idea where the "firing" letter may be posted.

edit: the Trespass letter is on page 163 of the official documents released online yesterday. The only think I can tell you about the other one is that is was not in a court document and was provided "by a source" close to the investigation.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/1683289681760-png.419775/

Red stain in shower.

I think it actually tested negative for blood. I am trying to verify, this link isn't the full page.

Yes, it's negative for blood. There was no blood found in his shower per that document.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

• 05/04/2023 Motion to Compel Discovery
• 05/04/2023 Order
• 05/05/2023 Notice of Remote Hearing

"2. Mr. Kohberger requests an Order for the State t0 disclose the following items included
in the Defendant’s 1” Supplemental Requestfor Discovery:
Reguest N0. 49 — All lab testing, including photographs and color diagrams
and bench notes including, but not limited to:
l. Copies of lab reports detailing the forensic evidence collection and
analysis of items recovered at Bryan Kohberger’s parents’ home,
trash cans and other receptacles, and Bryan Kohberger’s Hyundai Elantra.
As of May 4, 2023, Counsel for Mr. Kohberger has not received the requested
materials, and based upon information and belief these reports contain
exculpatory information."

"5. Mr. Kohberger requests an Order for the State to disclose the following items included
in the Defendant’s 2" Supplemental Request for Discovery:
Reguest No. 161 - All reports, notes, recordings and photos
As of May 4. 2023, Counsel for Mr. Kohberger has not received the requested
materials. On information and belief Counsel believes these materials contain
exculpatory evidence"

Interesting.

 

[Nila Aella]

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/1683289681760-png.419775/

Red stain in shower.

I think it actually tested negative for blood. I am trying to verify, this link isn't the full page.

It did test negative. Anything with an X in the second column is negative.

 

[Nila Aella]

"2. Mr. Kohberger requests an Order for the State t0 disclose the following items included
in the Defendant’s 1” Supplemental Requestfor Discovery:
Reguest N0. 49 — All lab testing, including photographs and color diagrams
and bench notes including, but not limited to:
l. Copies of lab reports detailing the forensic evidence collection and
analysis of items recovered at Bryan Kohberger’s parents’ home,
trash cans and other receptacles, and Bryan Kohberger’s Hyundai Elantra.
As of May 4, 2023, Counsel for Mr. Kohberger has not received the requested
materials, and based upon information and belief these reports contain
exculpatory information."

"5. Mr. Kohberger requests an Order for the State to disclose the following items included
in the Defendant’s 2" Supplemental Request for Discovery:
Reguest No. 161 - All reports, notes, recordings and photos
As of May 4. 2023, Counsel for Mr. Kohberger has not received the requested
materials. On information and belief Counsel believes these materials contain
exculpatory evidence"

Interesting.

This one caught my eye also:

3. Mr. Kohberger requests an Order for the State to disclose the following items included in the Defendant’s I“ Supplemental Requestfor Discovery:

Request No. 119 All notes recordings from all Officers from Moscow Police Department As of May 4, 2023

Counsel for Mr. Kohberger has not received recordings and notes from the interrogation of Mr. Kohberger by MPD Detective Payne

 

[Chloegirl]

Another thing that fits with no shower curtain is an (alleged) killer going home after driving to various Idaho towns - from PCA - and ditching "murder kit" items including bloody clothes, then going home to shower and after rinsing shower area leaving some blood - according to new information - THROWS AWAY THE SHOWER CURTAIN TO GET RID OF

This shows premeditation if you decide to use your personal shower curtain removing it from your apartment possibly placing it in the car to line it and then roll everything up inside and ditch afterwards. Speculative, of course.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

This shows premeditation if you decide to use your personal shower curtain removing it from your apartment possibly placing it in the car to line it and then roll everything up inside and ditch afterwards. Speculative, of course.

That was my first thought as well. But then, afterward, he had a month during which he could have replaced it, but apparently didn't, so I question the likelihood of that scenario now.

 

[rainbowshummingbird]

If I thought there was blood evidence in my bathroom, I probably wouldn't mind getting water all over the floor, and then wiping it up (and if I were compulsive, I'd do it with paper towels and get rid of all of it). Over and over. Like Lady Macbeth.

IMO.


According to Prof B., BK's favorite theories of criminal behavior were Rational Choice Theory and Script Theory.

So I keep trying to think what a Super Reasoner would do, having completed his rationally planned crime via his careful script. I never get far in my imagination, because just the things he'd have needed to do with his car (to keep blood evidence from getting everywhere) require some purchases and planning.

But let's just say that he went on home to Pullman after the murders, via that loop route, checking out what he could see as the sun came up, of the country out there. All of his kill stuff is still in his car at that point.

One goal he must have had was to remove all blood evidence from his own person (and get rid of whatever secondary clothing, if any, he might have had). So it does make sense that he might do a big evidence dump (or a smaller secondary dump) in that second drive on Sunday (the one where he arrives at 1122 King at around 9 am and then in Clarkston at noonish). Clarkston is only about 40 minutes from 1122 King, and then it's about 40 minutes back to Steptoe Apts. I wonder why it took him about 3 hours to get to Clarkston after leaving 1122 that Sunday morning.

Anyway, surely he had driven that route before? To check out possibly evidence dumping spots to put into his "script"? His theory doesn't account for mistakes such as leaving behind the sheath (or being seen doing a 3 point turn to go back to the house), but what does a Rational Choice person do in this case? He knew they'd be after his DNA (and it surprising how few hairs they found in his apartment - lots of cleaning). He obviously cleaned his car (many times). It wasn't reasonable to take his phone with him, though. I wonder why that was part of his script, I really do.

IMO.

There is some information that he appears to be a poor driver. Perhaps he also has a poor sense of direction and needs to look at his phone’s Maps.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

This shows premeditation if you decide to use your personal shower curtain removing it from your apartment possibly placing it in the car to line it and then roll everything up inside and ditch afterwards. Speculative, of course.

Premeditation is simply thinking about the murder before committing it, regardless of how long or short the time, so based on the facts as we know them now, the murders, regardless of who committed them and whether or not a missing shower curtain was involved, were definitely premeditated imo.

https://blacks_law.en-academic.com/38009/premeditation

The act of meditating in advance; deliberation upon a contemplated act; plotting or contriving; a design formed to do something before it is done. Decision or plan to commit a crime, such as murder, before committing it. A prior determination to do an act, but such determination need not exist for any particular period before it is carried into effect. Thought of beforehand for any length of time, however short. State v. Marston, Mo., 479 S.W.2d 481, 484.

Premeditation is one of the elements of first degree murder, and in this context, means that defendant acts with either the intention or the knowledge that he will kill another human being when such intention or knowledge precedes the killing by a length of time to permit reflection. State v. Clabourne, 142 Ariz. 335, 690 P.2d 54, 64.

 

[Cool Cats]

If I thought there was blood evidence in my bathroom, I probably wouldn't mind getting water all over the floor, and then wiping it up (and if I were compulsive, I'd do it with paper towels and get rid of all of it). Over and over. Like Lady Macbeth.

IMO.


According to Prof B., BK's favorite theories of criminal behavior were Rational Choice Theory and Script Theory.

So I keep trying to think what a Super Reasoner would do, having completed his rationally planned crime via his careful script. I never get far in my imagination, because just the things he'd have needed to do with his car (to keep blood evidence from getting everywhere) require some purchases and planning.

But let's just say that he went on home to Pullman after the murders, via that loop route, checking out what he could see as the sun came up, of the country out there. All of his kill stuff is still in his car at that point.

One goal he must have had was to remove all blood evidence from his own person (and get rid of whatever secondary clothing, if any, he might have had). So it does make sense that he might do a big evidence dump (or a smaller secondary dump) in that second drive on Sunday (the one where he arrives at 1122 King at around 9 am and then in Clarkston at noonish). Clarkston is only about 40 minutes from 1122 King, and then it's about 40 minutes back to Steptoe Apts. I wonder why it took him about 3 hours to get to Clarkston after leaving 1122 that Sunday morning.

Anyway, surely he had driven that route before? To check out possibly evidence dumping spots to put into his "script"? His theory doesn't account for mistakes such as leaving behind the sheath (or being seen doing a 3 point turn to go back to the house), but what does a Rational Choice person do in this case? He knew they'd be after his DNA (and it surprising how few hairs they found in his apartment - lots of cleaning). He obviously cleaned his car (many times). It wasn't reasonable to take his phone with him, though. I wonder why that was part of his script, I really do.

IMO.

QUOTE

"It wasn't reasonable to take his phone with him, though. I wonder why that was part of his script, I really do."

This question of his phone is a real head scratcher. I can think of only 2 reasons he would bring his phone.

1.) Ignorance. He thought turning it off was enough, didn't understand all the implications of bringing it.

2.) He actually did NOT plan to commit murder that night. Maybe did not plan to commit murder at all. Not planning a crime means it was safe to take the phone.

So then why take a knife and wear black clothes and mask?

Because he was returning to the house several times creeping through it, stalking, getting a thrill out of it. Disguised and with a weapon just in case he encountered someone. I don't think he had it planned out necessarily as well as we think - in regards to actually encountering an awake person.

Crimes like this normally show some type of escalation and creeping around in the house having that power and control over the victims is a good way to pave the way for this possible stalking behavior to have escalated.

He had opportunity. His phone pinged 11 times in that area late night/early morning.

He could have been simply doing another stalking foray but encountered awake victins, thus, unplanned, went into a killing frenzy because the occupants would likely call 911 for an intruder.

Remember, DM said she heard a male voice say something like "Don't worry I'm going to help you." And a roommate said "Someone is here."

If true, it sounds like Bryan was caught red-handed and his way out was to get rid of these witnesses to his late night burglary and stalking behaviors. A sure fire way to get himself arrested and ruin his life if he let these witnesses call 911.

No women were going to ruin his life.

(Theory as to why he brought his phone)