4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 74

[10ofRods]

MOO I would say he thought he cleaned it like all his gear, but the snap area grabbed a bit of TDNA and retained it.

Thank you for this thoughtful post.

It's a good time to mention that you cannot clean so well that you remove all of your own DNA from what you're cleaning. Even with gloves.

We exhale DNA with every breath. I suppose he could have gotten in a space suit (but how would he do that without touching said space suit?) He'd have needed a respirator mask. No witness has said he was wearing a respirator mask that night (it would have been obvious).

It doesn't matter how well BK thinks he cleaned something. When he put the gloves on, there's no way they were completely devoid of DNA on the outside. The fact is, though, he probably thought about cleaning the knife itself, but did not remember to attempt to clean the DNA from the snap every time he used it. But if he had, the likelihood of him removing all of it from the grooved area around the snap is virtually zero. DNA persists a long time and is very very small.

So not only did he touch the snap without enough protection (or just breathed on it), he's the only one who touched it/breathed on it. Makes me think he took it out of the packaging himself. The snap was likely machine installed and while some worker somewhere touched the knife, for sure, it's possible that only 1-2 gloved workers ever touched the outside of the sheath (and not the snap). If they do find other human DNA on the knife, I predict it will align with someone of Mexican descent, which is where the sheaths are made, IIRC. The defense will make a big deal of that, I suppose, but as we've seen in the Murdaugh trial, juries are smart enough to figure out what's going on.

IMO.

 

[maskedwoman]

Wait a sec. LE identified a single source of BK's DNA on the sheath. That doesn't mean it was the only DNA on the sheath. Only that they identified a single source of his DNA out of a mixture of however many other DNA sources were there.

Single source DNA profile recovery from single cells isolated from skin and fabric from touch DNA mixtures in mock physical assaults - PubMed

The ability to obtain DNA profiles from trace biological evidence is routinely demonstrated with so-called 'touch DNA evidence', which is generally perceived to be the result of DNA obtained from shed skin cells transferred from a donor's hands to an object or person during direct physical...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Single source DNA profile recovery from single cells isolated from skin and fabric from touch DNA mixtures in mock physical assaults​

In some instances involving transient contact between an assailant and victim, the victim's DNA may be found in such significant excess as to preclude the detection and typing of the perpetrator's DNA. In order to circumvent the challenges with standard recovery and analysis methods for touch DNA evidence, we reported previously the development of a 'smart analysis' single cell recovery and DNA analysis method that results in enhanced genetic analysis of touch DNA evidence. Here we use the smart single cell analysis method to recover probative single source profiles from individual and agglomerated cells from various touched objects and clothing items belonging to known donors. We then use the same approach for the detection of single source male donor DNA in simulated physical contact/assault mixture samples (i.e. male 'assailant' grabbing the wrist, neck or clothing from the female 'victim', or being in transient contact with bedding from the 'victim')

Read the affidavit on how investigators identified the Idaho killings suspect | CNN

Idaho officials have publicly released court documents -- including a probably cause affidavit -- in prosecutors' case against Bryan Kohberger, who faces four counts of first-degree murder and one count of burglary in the killings of four University of Idaho undergraduate students.

www.cnn.com

The Idaho state lab later located a single source of male DNA (suspect Profile) left on the button snap of the knife sheath.

This is very interesting stuff, although a bit tough for my non-scientific mind to take in. It is a good thing I never considered medical school. Woof. I went back to the PCA and it says "The Idaho state lab later located a single source of male DNA (suspect Profile) left on the button snap of the knife sheath."

I took that to mean they found one source of male DNA around the snap, not that it meant one source of that DNA among all the various DNA they found on the sheath.

I would appreciate someone smarter than me about this sort of thing letting us know how wrong I am about that. MOOooo

 

[maskedwoman]

I respectfully disagree. When a forensic source says "single source" DNA found on sheath, it means they took a number of swabs of the use point and found only ONE source.

There was no reconstruction out of several sources, because then the report would say "double source" or "multiple source."

ALL of the samples returned pointed to a single source (which means one person - at the time, of course, they had no clue who the person was).

Oh, thank you! That's helps a lot!

 

[mooseandcoffee]

Cleaned it and then never touched it again despite having taken it in his car, into the house, then taken the knife out of it, how his fibres and DNA weren't all over it? That's all I'm confused about.

Also, not trying to build BK into a hollywood villain, just trying to wonder how someone who maybe meticulously planned a crime to leave no evidence then left the sheath which is pretty stoopid. It's somewhat at odds. I know it's been discussed plenty before.

My guess is that planning to kill people and actually doing it are not one and the same. I don't believe for a second that he meant to leave the sheath there and probably didn't realize he had done it until it was too late.

EBM for clarity.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

There were never any reports about the size of the sample! Never anything but speculation that it was only a speck. The only thing said was that it was "single source DNA," which many people do not understand.

The reason forensic geneticists/anthropologists don't test an entire sheath is that to test leather requires some (minor) destruction of the item. That's almost never done one-sidedly. The prosecution and the defense both have a right to examine the intact article.

What they did was swab a use point, which means the place most likely to have epithelial (skin) DNA on it. That would be the snap. One DNA-bearing epithelial cell is about 17 microns. There were possibly thousands of them in the area around the snap.

To test the leather itself is a more extensive process - but I assume the defense may ask for that (but maybe not, if they already know it will just further prove it's BK's DNA on that sheath).

BK is not stupid, but he's not mentally acute at that moment in time. He is killing people with a knife. They are bleeding out, he doesn't want to linger, doesn't want their DNA on him or their blood on him.

He forgot his sheath.

It was not a "stroke of luck" to find it - its existence is highly probable and any forensic tool examiner knows this.

IMO.

Thank you for the info and for clarifying that the tiny speck was unverified speculation, I suspected that may be the case -or- was wondering if BK had done something extremely forensically aware and skilled (rendering the sheath to have zero trace of anything on it) whilst also leaving it behind which could have been quite the statement for someone so aware.

Seems this is not the case and I'm grateful for your response.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Cleaned it and then never touched it again despite having taken it in his car, into the house, then taken the knife out of it, how his fibres and DNA weren't all over it? That's all I'm confused about.

Also, not trying to build BK into a hollywood villain, just trying to wonder how someone who maybe meticulously planned a crime to leave no evidence then left the sheath which is pretty stoopid. It's somewhat at odds. I know it's been discussed plenty before.

No one said there WASN'T more DNA, though. That is what some people are missing. No one said the ONLY DNA that belonged to BK was what was found on the sheath snap.

Perhaps the sheath snap was the only non mixed DNA. Perhaps there is more and no one needs to mention it since the snap DNA was enough for probable cause. Maybe there was DNA all over and that is being held back.

After all, we know 4 people were stabbed. But we don't know where, or if they died of the stabs (immediately) or exsanguination( not immediately) or how many wounds or what order. That information hasn't been released by LE. Same with DNA, IMO.

Imagine a knife sheath next to a stab victim or victims on a bed that belonged to one of them. How much of THEIR DNA was likely on the knife sheath and no one has said anything about that.

I seriously doubt he left no DNA except for what they found on the back side of the snap. I just think that part was uncontaminated with any other DNA so a solid choice for a match. MOO.

 

[Megnut]

As it happened, the murders occurred in a span of no more than about 15 minutes. Two young ladies were spared. Four individuals weren't.

IMO he didn't come to kill everybody.

I think K was incidental. He didn't expect her, certainly didn't expect her in the same room.

I think X and E were purely reactionary.

I think this was targeted.

The Elantra would eventually have done him in, but just think how swiftly and precisely he might've accomplished a single murder. In and out in minutes.

That might have been part of the thrill. The challenge of it. The stealth. The invasion. The power.

One murder. Little sound, no need to set the sheath down at all. In and out without a sound, the sleepers solidly undisturbed.

Planned but planned poorly. Forgot to factor for human dynamics. Other people skew the equation.

I'll bet he sped out of there talking to himself, narrating what just happened and spooling in his head whaddoido whaddoido whaddoido.

Probably showered for three straight hours.

All born of some rage-fueled, perceived-injustice-avenging, gross entitlement mission --

The same kind of ill-logic that results in an innocent person shoved off a train platform or school shootings or or or...

Tragic as this crime is, it's a credit to advances in DNA and CCTV, there's been an arrest and -- let's hope -- a conviction. Thirty years ago, he might've remained a free man, to kill again. No criminal mastermind. Just a criminal. Like them all.

It's devastating that these four beautiful souls are gone -- all that potential stolen.



JMO

 

[DeDee]

Please tell me, if you will, what's been discussed about the Taylor Cutlery knife and sheath. There's also a Smith & Wesson pocket knife. Taylor Cutlery, now Taylor Brands (Made in China), and Smith and Wesson are owned by the same holding corporation.

I've looked at some Taylor Cutlery online and there's a wide range from knives sharp as daggers to knives large enough to be considered Samurai Swords. Samurai Tanto

Someone suggested after hearing the coroner report that some of their (Kaylee?) wounds were more like tears [than slices or slashes], I wondered if the blade became dull so he had to pull through body tissue and tug on the knife. If so, did he consider that possibility; therefore, came prepared with two knives?

Does the KaBar sheath have any oily fingerprints? BK may have bought the knife strictly for the purpose of killing these young students, maybe left it inside the original box, or else there'd be lint or other fibers on the leather sheath, oui?

The leather furniture in my home is cleaner than any cloth covered chairs. Leather is not a lint, fur or hair magnet. None of Murphy's fur should be expected to be found clinging onto the leather sheath.

HOO MOO

 

[gliving]

No one said there WASN'T more DNA, though. That is what some people are missing. No one said the ONLY DNA that belonged to BK was what was found on the sheath snap.

Perhaps the sheath snap was the only non mixed DNA. Perhaps there is more and no one needs to mention it since the snap DNA was enough for probable cause. Maybe there was DNA all over and that is being held back.

After all, we know 4 people were stabbed. But we don't know where, or if they died of the stabs (immediately) or exsanguination( not immediately) or how many wounds or what order. That information hasn't been released by LE. Same with DNA, IMO.

Imagine a knife sheath next to a stab victim or victims on a bed that belonged to one of them. How much of THEIR DNA was likely on the knife sheath and no one has said anything about that.

I seriously doubt he left no DNA except for what they found on the back side of the snap. I just think that part was uncontaminated with any other DNA so a solid choice for a match. MOO.

Exactly.

From the affidavit: " I also later noticed what appeared to be a tan leather knife sheath laying on the bed next to Mogen's right side"

Maddie and Kaylee were stabbed and/or sliced repeatedly and are laying together in a single bed, yet somehow there was not a trace of their blood or any touch DNA from her bedding found on a sheath button laying next to her right side seems impossible to me. <moo>

 

[ray9898]

Yeah, that's why I'm wondering how easy it is to walk with one of those things looped. IMO, the length of the knife sounds like it would restrict movement, especially the type of movement the perp probably had to make to kill four people.

Nah....I've walked dozens of miles over the years in the woods with similar fixed blade knives on my belt both hunting and hiking. In my opinion it is not as imposing as some are making it out to be, it simply sits on your hip.

What should be noted since the conversation went to coveralls, specifically Dickies, is coveralls rarely have belt loops. They have an elastic waist and full front zip.

 

[CGray123]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

Defense lawyers: "The truth getting out about what our client did is damaging our ability to provide a good smoke screen" LOL

That's what I call a "grotesquely twisted" statement (just kidding!)!

Defense counsel's brief substituted a headline grabbing phrase for effective articulation of the defense perspective.

Much of the press coverage was factual and relevant, and BK will have a tough time arguing that such coverage is unfairly prejudicial, which is the standard IMO. If potential jurors are influenced by evidence that the will see during the trial, that's not in itself unfairly prejudicial. If an actual juror called to the box says he has made up his mind and cannot listen fairly to the evidence and arguments at trial, that juror will be excused. But the courts won't presume in advance that such publicity interferes with a fair trial to an extent that requires a change of venue.

The coverage that is unfairly prejudicial is all the discussion of BK's character, going back to his childhood. He was addicted to drugs, he cheated on rehab, he physically abused his friend, he didn't respect women's boundaries, he creeped people out, etc.

All of this may be true. However, it tends to influence people who may serve on the jury to form the belief BK's a bad guy, and to make the fallacious leap from this impression that it's more likely he committed these crimes.

And, most important: none of this information would be admitted in evidence for the actual jury to consider. If the defense can show that this kind of information is pervasively influential in the community where jurors are drawn, BK will have a shot at change of venue.

The prosecution's case can also be undermined by inadmissible evidence published in advance, that tends to disparage the investigation or the victims, or that generates sympathy for the defendant.

This unfair prejudice is more likely if the parties are, in effect, trying their case in the court of public opinion through the press, directly or indirectly. That's why both sides support the gag order.

MOO, not an attorney

Oh, and here's the Idaho rule on character evidence:

Idaho Rules of Evidence Rule 404. Character Evidence; Crimes or Other Acts.

(a) Character Evidence.

(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of a person's character or trait of character is not admissible to prove that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character or trait.

 

[Nila Aella]

Yep so he meticulously cleaned it, never touched it, used gloves, then left it there...

- dropped accidentally
- left on purpose (why?)
- discarded (assured it had none of his DNA or fibres, so he didn't care?)

If he meticulously cleaned the sheath and missed his dna on the snap, then wore gloves: when opening the sheath snap, the dna on the snap would have transferred to his glove (or alternatively, maybe he accidentally touched his face with glove on and transferred dna to the snap when opening). Either way, the DNA would be on the glove and transfer to anything he touched (at least a few times). MOO

IMO the knife sheath was not dicarded. I alternate between accident or left on purpose, but accident is more likely I think.

edit: changed it to knife sheath

 

[Boxer]

If he meticulously cleaned the sheath and missed his dna on the snap, then wore gloves: when opening the sheath snap, the dna on the snap would have transferred to his glove (or alternatively, maybe he accidentally touched his face with glove on and transferred dna to the snap when opening). Either way, the DNA would be on the glove and transfer to anything he touched (at least a few times). MOO

IMO it was not dicarded. I alternate between accident or left on purpose, but accident is more likely I think.

IF they found a glove, the interior would be full of DNA.

 

[isabella88]

Nah....I've walked dozens of miles over the years in the woods with similar fixed blade knives on my belt both hunting and hiking. In my opinion it is not as imposing as some are making it out to be, it simply sits on your hip.

What should be noted since the conversation went to coveralls, specifically Dickies, is coveralls rarely have belt loops. They have an elastic waist and full front zip.

Thanks for the insight! Yeah, when I looked at Dickies coveralls I didn't see any belt loops.

 

[Batman's Mommy]

Please tell me, if you will, what's been discussed about the Taylor Cutlery knife and sheath. There's also a Smith & Wesson pocket knife. Taylor Cutlery, now Taylor Brands (Made in China), and Smith and Wesson are owned by the same holding corporation.

I've looked at some Taylor Cutlery online and there's a wide range from knives sharp as daggers to knives large enough to be considered Samurai Swords. Samurai Tanto

Someone suggested after hearing the coroner report that some of their (Kaylee?) wounds were more like tears [than slices or slashes], I wondered if the blade became dull so he had to pull through body tissue and tug on the knife. If so, did he consider that possibility; therefore, came prepared with two knives?

Does the KaBar sheath have any oily fingerprints? BK may have bought the knife strictly for the purpose of killing these young students, maybe left it inside the original box, or else there'd be lint or other fibers on the leather sheath, oui?

The leather furniture in my home is cleaner than any cloth covered chairs. Leather is not a lint, fur or hair magnet. None of Murphy's fur should be expected to be found clinging onto the leather sheath.

HOO MOO

I am familiar with the USMC KaBar. Maybe the KaBar used was serrated? Some KaBars have top edge serration and some have partially serrated blades. Specifically, the USMC KaBar comes with either a straight or serrated edge. The steel these knives are made of is rated 56-60 on the Rockwell Scale (Hrc) which basically means the blades hold their sharp edge for a while, but can be hard to sharpen (Sorry, my inner nerd is showing). IMO, this would account for the "tears" and confirm that the weapon used was indeed the KaBar that belonged to the sheath that was left at the scene. Unfortunately, for "tears" to appear, that means that the knife was inserted deeply.

JMO. moo

 

[Ghostwheel]

Nah....I've walked dozens of miles over the years in the woods with similar fixed blade knives on my belt both hunting and hiking. In my opinion it is not as imposing as some are making it out to be, it simply sits on your hip.

What should be noted since the conversation went to coveralls, specifically Dickies, is coveralls rarely have belt loops. They have an elastic waist and full front zip.

I agree about wearing a blade. Depends on what you are doing and if it gets in your way while doing it. Wouldn't want one flopping while riding a horse, but for hiking and even biking, not an issue for me, anyway.

And moving to the coveralls, they also have nice deep pockets. I wouldn't keep a knife in a front one while sitting, but if I were carrying it somewhere and planned to take it out of the pocket before sitting down, that would work. Get out of car, put sheathed knife in pocket, walk to where you are going (not real convenient for climbing through a window, of course), take the knife and sheath out, stuff sheath in pocket, kneel on bed to stab someone, sheath comes out of pocket. Within the realm of possibility, anyway.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Heres another of those huh, who knew things. Don't know if this post will stick. But go search for Taylor Cutlery fixed blade knife and check out some of the vintage items.

This is a vintage Taylor Cutlery knife, back when the blades were made in Japan. Designed by Phil Mann. Other images on this eBay listing show Taylor Cutlery with the stag head.

RARE VINTAGE CUSTOM TAYLOR JAPAN PHIL MANN STAG DIRK DAGGER FIGHTING BOWIE KNIFE | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for RARE VINTAGE CUSTOM TAYLOR JAPAN PHIL MANN STAG DIRK DAGGER FIGHTING BOWIE KNIFE at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[Nila Aella]

Re: single source of male DNA From the PCA:

"The Idaho state lab later located a single source of male DNA (suspect Profile) left on the button snap of the knife sheath."

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/122922%20Affidavit%20-%20Exhibit%20A%20-%20Statement%20of%20Brett-Payne.pdf

IMO a single source profile can be obtained from a mixture. The PCA does not mention how they located the single source of male DNA, just that they did locate one. And it does not say it was the only DNA on the sheath. His DNA is on the snap. How did it get there? When? And is there any other DNA on the sheath or snap? MOO

This link discusses how sensitive tests are now that mixtures are common and they even have a knife example with touch dna: 2019

DNA Mixtures: A Forensic Science Explainer

What are DNA mixtures? And why are they sometimes so difficult to interpret?

www.nist.gov

This one points out that testing is so sensitive now that single source dna is rare and how single source profiles can come from a mixture: 2021

DNA profiles: Single-source vs. mixtures

As I promised let's start with my series on forensic DNA profiles. I hope those who are reading this article know/saw/generated something, which is called a DNA profile worldwide.

www.linkedin.com

MOO

 

[DeDee]

I am familiar with the USMC KaBar. Maybe the KaBar used was serrated? Some KaBars have top edge serration and some have partially serrated blades. Specifically, the USMC KaBar comes with either a straight or serrated edge. The steel these knives are made of is rated 56-60 on the Rockwell Scale (Hrc) which basically means the blades hold their sharp edge for a while, but can be hard to sharpen (Sorry, my inner nerd is showing). IMO, this would account for the "tears" and confirm that the weapon used was indeed the KaBar that belonged to the sheath that was left at the scene. Unfortunately, for "tears" to appear, that means that the knife was inserted deeply.

JMO. moo

Thank you, Batman's Mommy. The last sentence gave light to a corner. A tear in the skin is like a laceration and both can be made with a knife, even a dull knife. A knife can cut, which is also considered a laceration, or else it makes a puncture wound. A tear is similar to a laceration bc it tears open the skin tissue. Got it.

What I wonder now is why the tears confirm (prove?) to you that the KaBar knife used in the murders belongs with the sheath from the bed?

Let's just say, for an example, BK's angry friend wants to frame him for betraying him. He buys a new KaBar knife and sheath. Wearing gloves and using a cotton swab, angry friend plants BK's DNA on the snap. Then, angry friend kills the people. Places a clean sheath w/ BK's DNA onto the bed.

@Ghostwheel I saw the vintage Taylor knife last evening on eBay. It's a nice piece. The image of the sheath clearly shows an open snap.

 

[DeDee]

BK trained for four months to learn how to cut and filet fish when in high school. Not good at all. Did the former employer ever say if BK had his own set of knives? Wonder why BK wanted to work with knives and around dead fish heads as a teenager?

Bryan Kohberger's Past As 'Withdrawn' Fish Cutter Exposed, Ex-Coworker Claims Accused Quadruple Murderer Never 'Warmed Up' or

Bryan Kohberger gag order and other key developments from investigation

Kohberger trained under Conklin for four months, during which he was taught how to cut and filet fish using various knife techniques.

Conklin also admitted that the former seasonal employee was forbidden from interacting with customers.

MOO