4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 76

[jepop]

I understand that you have been exploring various options regarding the DNA transfer in this case. However, it is essential to bear in mind that the scenarios proposed are highly speculative and improbable.

As you pointed out, the defense may try to create doubts about the DNA evidence by considering alternative scenarios. Nevertheless, it is the responsibility of the jury to assess the credibility of such claims against the weight of the prosecution's evidence.

It is also worth noting that for any scenario to be considered, there must be evidence to support it. Currently, there is no solid evidence to back up the possibility of DNA transfer through a communal laundry facility in this case.

I couldn't agree more with everything you write here.

Edited to delete last sentence.

 

[jepop]

See my earlier posts today (with pictures!), stating the reasons (and pictures!) showing why I think we have to go by what the young woman said and meant (and mentioning my own experience in teaching observation to college age students. This is respectfully not aimed at you, it's just that...that was my point. I think I'll be said to belabor the point if I say much more.

For example, I have shown Simon and Garfunkel clips to class, and some young women say that (aside from height), it's Art's "bushy eyebrows" and "blondness" that distinguish him from Paul. Art does not have bushy eyebrows - but his brow bone runs stronger in between his actual eyebrows.

I have given some evidence in favor of my point (which is that young women today use the word in a specific way, which has little to do with the number of hairs on the brow).

I won't belabor it further, as I've said enough (on this thread, in my last several posts).

IMO.

I agree. We have to go by what DM said and meant. Those are her descriptors and her perceptions. It is her statement. It is what it is and for that reason I accept it as valid. It isn't a matter of her being right or wrong as compared to someone else's perceptions.MOO. I've always considered that one reason for inclusion of her general description of the stranger in the PCA was to show that BK cannot be excluded as being the person she saw. I think her sighting and other statements also support the crime timeline presented. MOO. But if one chooses to look at her description in isolation of other circumstantial inferences then her descriptors show that BK can not be excluded. MOO

 

[whiterhino]

Re: Open door mystery: The times are off by 30-45 minutes between what the neighbor who saw the door open at 8:30 a.m.told Fox News and the PCA account of BK's phone that awful morning. Open door is not mentioned in the unsealed PCA but puts BK's phone is in King Rd residence area for 9 minutes. BK could have gone in the already open door. He didn't leave Pullman until 9 a.m. according to PCA. So if neighbor's time is correct who opened the door is a mystery?

Fox News report: A neighbor said the front door was wide open around 8:30 a.m. When asked about the state of the front door when police arrived, a spokesperson told Fox News on Thursday "that type of information is part of the investigation and not released."
Unsealed PCA [pg 14]: "the 8458 Phone leaving the area ofthe Kohberger Residence at approximalely 9:00 a.m. and traveling to Moscow, ID. Specifically, the 8458 Phone utilized cellular resources that would provide coverage to the King Road Residence between 9:12 a.m. and 9:21 a.m."

JMO
edit time clarity

Crazy BK could drive from Pullman to King Road in 15 minutes

Not sure what to make of the time discrepancy. Keep in mind that comment/quote from the neighbor came from Fox News (not an official statement to LE) who also printed this:

" Police say they believe the stabbings happened between 3 a.m. and 4 a.m., when the victims were sleeping and as Moscow police officers were responding to an unrelated incident about a hundred yards away. "

Idaho murders: Slain university students' neighbor says front door left wide open after attacks

Not to start anything but between 3 and 4 a.m?!

 

[jepop]

Yes, but we need to keep in mind it's *her* perception, her description. Not what we older people consider to be bushy eyebrows, but her interpretation of such. JMO

I agree totally, and to my mind it is general enough to serve the purpose of not excluding BK as being the stranger DM saw in the house that night. If DM is called as witness I've wondered how far a judge would allow defense to go (over prosecution objections) in trying to discredit DM's description on the basis of her state of mind at the time, or some attempt to try and prove that she could have hallucinated or even be lying (note I don't believe this to be the case in the least but trying to think what defense may try). Would defense try that? IDK, I'd guess that they probably would to a lesser or greater extent. I feel the approach would serve defense better if gentle rather than confrontational or at least I would hope so. Anyway, maybe that is a question for future discussion if DM is called at trial stage. MOO

 

[whiterhino]

I agree totally, and to my mind it is general enough to serve the purpose of not excluding BK as being the stranger DM saw in the house that night. If DM is called as witness I've wondered how far a judge would allow defense to go (over prosecution objections) in trying to discredit DM's description on the basis of her state of mind at the time, or some attempt to try and prove that she could have hallucinated or even be lying (note I don't believe this to be the case in the least but trying to think what defense may try). Would defense try that? IDK, I'd guess that they probably would to a lesser or greater extent. I feel the approach would serve defense better if gentle rather than confrontational or at least I would hope so. Anyway, maybe that is a question for future discussion if DM is called at trial stage. MOO

It isn't just what DM claims she saw, it's what she says she heard. The shoe print, the sheath, the phone pings, the car on camera, DMs' statement all corroborate each other.

IMO it would be difficult to accuse DM of hallucinating when she stated seeing and hearing someone. If DM happened to be intoxicated that evening, if there's any chance another person was there (not BK) then I could see the defense going further down that road. So far, the pieces fit together so well that the defense might not even want to question DM. JMO.

 

[jepop]

The report of the front door open is something we have not gotten an explanation for as far as I know. It could be significant. It shows access to the house for several hours.

I don't think the report shows that there was access to house for several hours. Report just says a neighbour told fox news that they saw the front door open at 8.30 am. No indicators in the report that the neighbour confirmed or noted that the door had been open for hours, when it was opened or when it was shut. MOO

Idaho students’ front door was left open on morning of murders: neighbor

The unnamed neighbor in Moscow, Idaho told Fox News that the front door of the three-floor home wasn’t shut around 8:30 a.m.

nypost.com

"The unnamed neighbor in Moscow, Idaho, told Fox News that the front door of the three-floor home wasn’t shut around 8:30 a.m. Nov. 13."

Also below, adds nothing of substance IMO if you listen to the report.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1601291856738160641

 

[jepop]

It isn't just what DM claims she saw, it's what she says she heard. The shoe print, the sheath, the phone pings, the car on camera, DMs' statement all corroborate each other.

IMO it would be difficult to accuse DM of hallucinating when she stated seeing and hearing someone. If DM happened to be intoxicated that evening, if there's any chance another person was there (not BK) then I could see the defense going further down that road. So far, the pieces fit together so well that the defense might not even want to question DM. JMO.

Yes, agree re the circumstances. RE BBM: I was considering her visual descriptors in isolation of how DM's entire statement (and I think there will be more detail re corroborating timeline etc than what is included in the PCA) corroborates the set of circumstances. I've wondered before if the defense might try to attack the basic descriptors that don't (to my mind) exclude BK, as a starting point if she is called. I'm not sure how they would do that other than suggesting that what she saw (the athletic built male of approx height and so forth) can't be relied upon. Whatever way I look at it, I think the defense would have a hard time doing that over objections of prosecution, or judge ruling certain lines of questioning as inappropriate/inadmissable. MOO

 

[jepop]

A couple of questions this morning:

In what circumstances could LE have tried to lift BK’s fingerprints from the outside of his car (door handles, drunk latch, gas tank cover) anytime after they began to zero in in him and before he left for PA? Would a warrant be needed to pull fingerprints from a car in a public parking lot? What about the traffic stops? Could those have been attempts to collect fingerprints? If there were attempts and they didn’t get anything, would that suggest that BK scoured the exterior of his car very carefully in such a way that nobody does unless they have something to hide? The lack of a single print would be an interesting piece of circumstantial evidence.

Same questions for his apt doorknob? And the door frame. I guess I don’t get how the only piece of DNS they got was from a piece of trash in PA.

Second thought (unrelated) - imo jmo re: the timeline of possible SM nexuses- imo BK selected University of Idaho for its program. IMO, after he knew he was going there is when he started trolling SM for whatever purpose- to legitimately find friends/hook ups or something darker. IMO jmo

This is totally MOO, but I tend towards thinking that the alleged killer didn't leave finger prints at the scene because I think he was wearing gloves. Just speculation. But as regards both dna and also finger prints, I do think LE very likely tried to get a BK dna sample (and prints if sought) surreptitiously before BK left for PA in mid DEc and failed. I think other posters (SGH?) pointed out here recently that WA privacy laws probably prevented them from accessing door knobs and car parked at residential appartment or WSU campus. And for whatever reasons I think it's also likely LE were unable to access any BK trash that may have been left on a curb (if there was any trash to access). MOO

 

[whiterhino]

Yes, agree re the circumstances. RE BBM: I was considering her visual descriptors in isolation of how DM's entire statement (and I think there will be more detail re corroborating timeline etc than what is included in the PCA) corroborates the set of circumstances. I've wondered before if the defense might try to attack the basic descriptors that don't (to my mind) exclude BK, as a starting point if she is called. I'm not sure how they would do that other than suggesting that what she saw (the athletic built male of approx height and so forth) can't be relied upon. Whatever way I look at it, I think the defense would have a hard time doing that over objections of prosecution, or judge ruling certain lines of questioning as inappropriate/inadmissable. MOO

It's the defenses job to cast doubt into the minds of the jurors so it would make sense to go after DM (if given the chance). However there's just so much other evidence (digital and DNA at that)for the defense to have to sift through and disprove that IMO tearing apart DMs' statement would be a waste of time and a last resort. MOO.

 

[NCWatcher]

That's what "co-terminal" means. A 5 year program that leads to both a BA (or BS) and an MA (or MS). It works because then a senior capstone project can be eliminated, courses without pre-reqs can be taken when offered (a big deal in these lean times for education) and the student can have until their 5th year to complete the BA requirements for one degree.

We don't know what track he took for the BA, but we do know that he took that one famous professor's class on serial killers (which, I believe, has a similar title to what you mention).

I would guess he has indeed taken that class.

IMO.

I realize that's what the word co-terminal means.

I was under the impression you were saying he earned-- in a co-terminal fashion-- a BA degree in Psychology and an MA degree in Criminal Justice. At any rate the quote from a link you provided was:

"//Kohberger already had a bachelor's degree in psychology, and a master's degree in criminal justice from DeSales University in Center Valley, Pennsylvania.//"

You also wrote "He was in a coterminal program (BA in psych)."

What I'm saying is the DeSales university catalog doesn't use the word "coterminal" or "co-terminal" and there is nothing I can find suggesting the existence of a 5-year program that combines an undergraduate degree in Psychology (DeSales offers the BS, not the BA) with a graduate degree in Criminal Justice. The ONLY even slightly relevant program I can see in the catalog is the 5-year program I mentioned that leads to a BA in Criminal Justice, not in Psychology, and an MA in Criminal Justice. Frankly, creating 5-year opportunities across departments/disciplines isn't all that common in my experience although sometimes dual enrollment grad programs are seen (e.g., public health and law)

I do see 5-year programs for Accounting to MBA, for Business Admin to MBA, for Finance to MBA, for International Business to MBA, for Management to MBA, for Sports Management to MBA.. so most of the 5-year programs are in business areas leading to the MBA.

Psychology at DeSales offers the forensic track I mentioned, but also the ever-popular clinical track, an experimental research track, and a general track. I'm not sure I personally see the rationale for creating a 5-year Psychology to Criminal Justice program. And so far as I can tell, DeSales does NOT require a senior capstone project of the sort you mentioned so there would be no rationale for allowing a student to skip that as you mentioned.

I know it's been reported Bryan earned an AA degree in Psychology at a community college. Other than what some who say they knew him say, do we really have any evidence he was in a combination Psychology/Criminal Justice program at DeSales? So far as I can tell, that's not true.

Here is the spring 2022 commencement program. DeSales has only one ceremony-- it does not have separate undergrad/grad ceremonies. His name appears only as an MA in Criminal Justice recipient, not as a recipient of the BS in Psychology. That's why there's no film of Bryan accepting his undergraduate degree at the 2022 ceremony-- it likely didn't happen. Had there been separate ceremonies it's possible BK would have skipped the undergrad one as you mentioned earlier. But there was only one ceremony and BK is not listed as the recipient of a Psychology degree.

Program - DeSales University Class of 2021 Commencement

devweb.desales.edu

I cannot find commencement lists for earlier years on the DeSales site. Perhaps he earned a Psychology degree in an earlier year. But there's no evidence of anything co-terminal.
JMO

 

[jepop]

Thank you. So we don't actually know whether he returned to the neighborhood or not. Maybe he did indeed, but maybe he went to somewhere else in Moscow, maybe some store where he could overhear if people were talking about the murders, maybe some overlook point where he could see King Rd. at a distance with binoculars, etc.

I personally don't doubt that he is the guy, but we shouldn't turn "a drive to anywhere on the west side of town" into "he for sure returned to the house." MOO

I will add: if he was only within the service range of that cell tower for 9 minutes, then I don't think he actually stopped anywhere -- the house, Walmart, etc. That's only 4.5 minutes of driving once he enters coverage of that cell tower, before he would have to turn around and drive 4.5 minutes back out of that range. (unless his phone went off/airplane at 9:21, but given how it's worded, it sounds like the phone was on and he was only inside that service area for nine minutes). A fast drive-by, IMO.

I think he probably just drove around, possibly within sight of the house as you say, and then went back to Pullman. Good point out on the lack of time to really do more. After reflecting on many of the posts and ponderings, my conclusion for now is that he probably had the sheath on his mind and could have thought about trying to retrieve it, but when her got to Moscow, came to his senses about entering in broad daylight. He may have also been partially driven by curiosity about if the crime had been discovered, as you suggest, and wanted to take a peek. If he was being cautious then he wouldn't have actually driven down Queen Street again in the daylight. MOO.

Still we don't know what has been left out of the PCA... If he did go onto Queen street then I would really have to assume that LE would have footage of the white elantra on that street for 9am-ish NOv 13th (and possibly other streets in the neighbourhood). So if he did enter Queen street, then LE have left that out of the PCA for use later on....MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I don't think the report shows that there was access to house for several hours. Report just says a neighbour told fox news that they saw the front door open at 8.30 am. No indicators in the report that the neighbour confirmed or noted that the door had been open for hours, when it was opened or when it was shut. MOO

Idaho students’ front door was left open on morning of murders: neighbor

The unnamed neighbor in Moscow, Idaho told Fox News that the front door of the three-floor home wasn’t shut around 8:30 a.m.

nypost.com

"The unnamed neighbor in Moscow, Idaho, told Fox News that the front door of the three-floor home wasn’t shut around 8:30 a.m. Nov. 13."

Also below, adds nothing of substance IMO if you listen to the report.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1601291856738160641

I disagree. If it turns out the report is true and the door was open at 8:30 and the 911 call didn't go out until noon, who closed the door? The thinking is that DM and BF were asleep or hiding. Weird to think they came out, opened the door for a minute, then closed it, but still didn't call friends or 911 until hours later. If the door was open that entire time, then it does show access for hours.

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

I disagree. If it turns out the report is true and the door was open at 8:30 and the 911 call didn't go out until noon, who closed the door? The thinking is that DM and BF were asleep or hiding. Weird to think they came out, opened the door for a minute, then closed it, but still didn't call friends or 911 until hours later. If the door was open that entire time, then it does show access for hours.

MOO

Hinged doors can blow shut if there's a gust of wind. Nobody had to come out. And if the back door was also left slightly ajar, it's actually more likely to happen.

(Source: I live in a house with a sliding glass back door and a heavy wood front door. We always have to chock the front door if it's open, especially if the back is open, because it loves to slam very loudly at the slightest fluctuation in the breeze.)

MOO

 

[maconrich]

Hinged doors can blow shut if there's a gust of wind. Nobody had to come out. And if the back door was also left slightly ajar, it's actually more likely to happen.

(Source: I live in a house with a sliding glass back door and a heavy wood front door. We always have to chock the front door if it's open, especially if the back is open, because it loves to slam very loudly at the slightest fluctuation in the breeze.)

MOO

The back door is on the 2nd floor of the house. The front door is on the 1st floor. Even if the back door was left open it wouldn't cause the front door to open or close. JMO IME

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Hinged doors can blow shut if there's a gust of wind. Nobody had to come out. And if the back door was also left slightly ajar, it's actually more likely to happen.

(Source: I live in a house with a sliding glass back door and a heavy wood front door. We always have to chock the front door if it's open, especially if the back is open, because it loves to slam very loudly at the slightest fluctuation in the breeze.)

MOO

Let's say it did close. Who do you think opened it?

 

[iamshadow21]

The back door is on the 2nd floor of the house. The front door is on the 1st floor. Even if the back door was left open it wouldn't cause the front door to open or close. JMO IME

But there are no doors between the front and back of the house. Just staircases. All it would take would be the wind coming from the right direction to create a through-draught.

Let's say it did close. Who do you think opened it?

No idea. But the perpetrator could have opened it. Or the neighbour could be completely wrong. The door might never have been open on that day, at that time. I'd like to see more sources for this neighbour account, personally. Sometimes people want to help, and they misremember. It might have been a different morning the door was open, or later in the day than they thought it was, more in line with the first helpers arriving once the crime was discovered. Whatever - I think LE know the truth, based on the cam footage they have acquired from neighbouring homes, and statements from the folks who actually were in the home.

MOO

 

[CSIDreamer]

Let's say it did close. Who do you think opened it?

Scenario. Xana picked her DD order up when it was left and in trying to be quiet didn't get the door closed properly. In this scenario, the door was never closed, so no one opened it. It blew open. Since a neighbor saw it open at 8:30, we don't know how long it had been that way or when it got closed. JMO

 

[iamshadow21]

Scenario. Xana picked her DD order up when it was left and in trying to be quiet didn't get the door closed properly. In this scenario, the was never closed, so no one opened it. It blew open. Since a neighbor saw it open at 8:30, we don't know how long it had been that way or when it got closed. JMO

If this did happen, the perpetrator opening the kitchen sliding door could have created the air movement that caused it to swing open wider.

MOO

 

[NCWatcher]

If this did happen, the perpetrator opening the kitchen sliding door could have created the air movement that caused it to swing open wider.

MOO

Maybe. I live in the "sunny south" but even here I'd think if the door was standing open for many hours anyone sleeping on that floor would be waked up by the cold.
JMO

 

[CSIDreamer]

Maybe. I live in the "sunny south" but even here I'd think if the door was standing open for many hours anyone sleeping on that floor would be waked up by the cold.
JMO

Unless they slept with their door shut. JMO