4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 76

[jepop]

Your way has to be better than what I managed not to do. So many questions and uncertainties, and I agree they need to be addressed and hopefully answered. I also agree that the attacks on Xana / Ethan raise even more questions. I could be wrong, but I'm not convinced that they weren't targeted too. Targeted or intentionally sought out by the killer. IMHO, MOO

I waver between just KG and MM and all three girls. I tend to think EM was not originally planned as a target but also that when it came to it, clearly the killer was prepared to and able to also murder him. :-( . I think, if the killer had been watching the house in weeks prior, then on the night he would have likely known EM was in the house (if he was familiar with his vehicle) and in the end that didn't deter him. MOO.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Excerpt from the above link:

View attachment 413449

"Highly intimate facts or statements, the publication of which would be highly objectionable to a reasonable person"

Now I can not stop wondering exactly what material was redacted!

bbm: not necessarily

jmo imo with supporting links -- some information from a previous post:

I went through the different reasons cited for sealing the documents earlier, but it was argued that this was boilerplate language. While the language is boilerplate, the application of reasons stated in the motions and orders is not; that language is specific to the case, the situation, and the reasons vary. These are legal orders, signed by the judge, stating their reasons for withholding these documents from public record. It will be interesting to see if they reseal this month when some of the orders end.

So I went back through all the ones that just say Order to Seal.https://coi.isc.idaho.gov

I had looked at those when they were first added and noted the different language, and I think there is definitely a CI. Different sealed orders have different language

for example, the first, second, third, fifth, sixth, seventh ones say this:
(I) The documents contain highly intimate facts or statements, the publication of which would be highly objectionable to a reasonable person;
(2) The documents contain facts or statements that might threaten the safety of or endanger the life or safety of individuals; and
(3) Disclosure would constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.

the fourth ones says this:
(l) The documents contain highly intimate facts or statements, the publication of which would be highly objectionable to a reasonable person; and
(2) Production of such records would disclose investigative techniques and procedures.

the eighth (last) one just says for the reasons stated in the original order, and those reasons are this:
Interfere with enforcement proceedings
Constitute an unwanted invasion of personal privacy,
Disclose the identity of a confidential source; and
Disclose investigative techniques and procedures.

Then I looked at the messy Daybell cases for comparison Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest. For example, they mostly say;
1) The interests in privacy are predominant over the public’s interest in disclosure.
(2) Sealing said documents is the least restrictive measure consistent with the privacy interests
at issue.
(3) Sealing these documents during the pendency ofthis criminal investigation is in the
best interest of justice and will preserve the right to a fair trial. and
(1) The information contained in the document is exempt from disclosure pursuant to
I.C.A.R.(g)(10); I.C.A.R. 32. Records of The Judicial Department - Examination and Copying - Exemption From and Limitations on Disclosure. | Supreme Court

this is very different than the kohberger docs, even though the language is 'boilerplate'.
jmo imo with supporting links

The Idaho court admin rule I.C.A.R. 32i lays it out well, and this case drives it home imo jmo - what the rule says, what applies in that case

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR01-21-34839/081622 Motion to Seal Record Pursuant to Idaho Court Administrative Rule 32.pdf

jmo imo with supporting links

edited b/c I messed it up totally when cutting and pasting.

 

[maconrich]

I waver between just KG and MM and all three girls. I tend to think EM was not originally planned as a target but also that when it came to it, clearly the killer was prepared to and able to also murder him. :-( . I think, if the killer had been watching the house in weeks prior, then on the night he would have likely known EM was in the house (if he was familiar with his vehicle) and in the end that didn't deter him. MOO.

I waver with that too. Unless Xana ran into him face to face, it seems likely that he would have been able to exit the house after killing KG and MM. Down the stairs, past DM's room, thru the kitchen and out the sliding door. But, like you said, he was clearly prepared to kill Ethan too - and if he'd been watching the house, he would have known Ethan's vehicle and that he stayed over. And that it didn't deter him. He may well have planned to kill anyone / everyone in the house even if he'd targeted the young women. I'm not sure why he avoided DM since he passed her room at least 3 times - unless he just didn't see her. I'm inclined to think she was extremely lucky.

 

[U.N. Known]

I waver with that too. Unless Xana ran into him face to face, it seems likely that he would have been able to exit the house after killing KG and MM. Down the stairs, past DM's room, thru the kitchen and out the sliding door. But, like you said, he was clearly prepared to kill Ethan too - and if he'd been watching the house, he would have known Ethan's vehicle and that he stayed over. And that it didn't deter him. He may well have planned to kill anyone / everyone in the house even if he'd targeted the young women. I'm not sure why he avoided DM since he passed her room at least 3 times - unless he just didn't see her. I'm inclined to think she was extremely lucky.

I hope, whatever the outcome, we learn the killer's target: person(s) or place. As mentioned:
1. there were five cars in front of the house, so anyone entering should have expected or prepared for at least five people to be in the house.
2. IMO, if the killer was there to kill for the sake of killing random people, all five of them would have been killed. If the killer studied the layout of the house beforehand, he would have known and the placement of the other three bedrooms.
3. Kaylee's SUV had not been there previously, so if she was a target, the killer had to know she visiting (was her new car/visit posted online?)
4. Entering through the kitchen and back out would also allow someone to avoid the added step by DM's room

The more I read everyone's ideas the more questions I have!

 

[jepop]

I waver with that too. Unless Xana ran into him face to face, it seems likely that he would have been able to exit the house after killing KG and MM. Down the stairs, past DM's room, thru the kitchen and out the sliding door. But, like you said, he was clearly prepared to kill Ethan too - and if he'd been watching the house, he would have known Ethan's vehicle and that he stayed over. And that it didn't deter him. He may well have planned to kill anyone / everyone in the house even if he'd targeted the young women. I'm not sure why he avoided DM since he passed her room at least 3 times - unless he just didn't see her. I'm inclined to think she was extremely lucky.

The thing with DM is that she had only recently (but don't quote me because I'm not sure how recently) moved to that room from downstairs. That info is somewhere or other in the threads. It's entirely possible that (speculation follows) on the occasions of watching the house from the tree line (maddies room window visible, maybe also some kitchen depending on killers' positioning) DM's room was always dark or there was no activity there and he concluded it wasn't used. He may well have gone in there intending to kill as many as possible but thought DM's room was unoccupied and in the case of ground floor, got too tired or flagged and decided to leave for any number of reasons after XAna and Ethan. I tend to think he never noticed DM when he was leaving, was just concentrating on getting out after the awful events in Xana's room. Just one speculated scenario. MOO

So yes, I believe DM and BF were incredibly fortunate if that can even be said given how terribly awful the trauma must have been upon awkening to that scene the next morning.;-(. But she and BF are alive. I can't imagine how hard it is for them and hope they are in the arms of love and support and understanding.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

K and M were at a bar the night/morning of the murders so they would have needed their ID. Do photos of them at the grub truck show they were carrying purses? If not, their IDs could have been in their pockets, and they may have put them on their desks, night tables, or other when they went to bed, rather than leave them in their coat or pant pockets.

Good point, @Sundog That is one possible scenario since they would have had their IDs with them to get into the Corner Bar that night, and well, just to have their ID on them.

I didn't see Kaylee or Maddie carrying a purse or backpack or separate carryall in the videos of them from that night. I think Maddie had a bulky jacket on and Kaylee had a hooded jacket with a pouch pocket in front, IIRC, jmo

 

[I'm Nobody]

Grub Truck Video

K and M were at a bar the night/morning of the murders so they would have needed their ID. Do photos of them at the grub truck show they were carrying purses? If not, their IDs could have been in their pockets, and they may have put them on their desks, night tables, or other when they went to bed, rather than leave them in their coat or pant pockets.

Thanks Sundog. I agree IDs would have been needed to get into the Corner Club bar that night unless K and M were so well known there they no longer needed to show IDs with dates of birth. Some discussion earlier about ADAM, the bartender who worked there, who K and M talked with, seemed to know. K and M weren't driving that night so maybe no DL necessary?

In the grub truck video below Kaylee (in ripped jeans I think) taps her phone on the machine at the truck window, punches in some numbers to pay for whatever was ordered. I'm guessing pockets have replaced purses for this age group. Not a purse in sight on anybody! Once home, take ID out of pocket put someplace in your room easy for you to grab next morning. No need to hide your ID; as far as they knew nobody in the house that night would want their ID.

JMO

Twitch video posted by a Moscow food truck shows who appears to be two victims, Madison Mogen and Kaylee Goncalves, just hours before the murders. *The... | By John Webb | Facebook

Twitch video posted by a Moscow food truck shows who appears to be two victims, Madison Mogen and Kaylee Goncalves, just hours before the murders. *The...

www.facebook.com

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

I agree IDs would have been needed to get into the Corner Club bar that night unless K and M were so well known there they no longer needed to show IDs with dates of birth.

DOB would be on DL but not on student ID, true? I have a campus ID but not DOB on it, but wondering if other universities are different.

 

[Cool Cats]

DOB would be on DL but not on student ID, true? I have a campus ID but not DOB on it, but wondering if other universities are different.

Student ID Retirement - Frequenty Asked Questions

Information regarding the discontinuation of Student ID's.

support.uidaho.edu

The University of Idaho has been phasing out the use of Student ID numbers in favor of VandalNumbers, also known as "V-numbers." After July 11, 2018, all students have been identified primarily via their V-number, where it is used for records keeping and requested on forms. Systems that rely on Student ID numbers, including all card readers, were updated in preparation for this change to accommodate both Student ID numbers and V-number.

What ID is printed on my VandalCard?​

 

[PrairieWind]

Student ID Retirement - Frequenty Asked Questions

Information regarding the discontinuation of Student ID's.

support.uidaho.edu

The University of Idaho has been phasing out the use of Student ID numbers in favor of VandalNumbers, also known as "V-numbers." After July 11, 2018, all students have been identified primarily via their V-number, where it is used for records keeping and requested on forms. Systems that rely on Student ID numbers, including all card readers, were updated in preparation for this change to accommodate both Student ID numbers and V-number.

What ID is printed on my VandalCard?​

Has LE looked into this Joe Dab guy? He does have bushy eyebrows.

 

[CGray123]

On the topic of grand juries, it's really unlikely that the investigation won't involve one as long as charges are pending against BK.

Generally, the grand jury is an alternative vehicle for investigating and charging a crime. Most prosecutors use grand juries to investigate charges in which witnesses can be expected to resist an invitation to be interviewed by investigators - like gang-related crimes, racketeering, political or financial corruption. Grand juries can compel witnesses to testify, and the proceedings and records are confidential.

One Idaho court website has a succinct description.

Grand Juries

"It should be noted that the grand jury system is a mechanism for bringing a serious criminal matter to the district court. A grand jury is a panel of citizens called together to hear evidence and determine if criminal charges should be initiated.

Grand jury proceedings are private and secret, prospective defendants are not entitled to be present at the proceedings, and no one is allowed to cross-examine witnesses on the defendant's behalf. Information presented to the grand jury is presented by prosecuting attorneys.

The grand jury has broad investigative powers and may compel the attendance of witnesses or compel answers to questions and submission of records. If the grand jury determines that criminal proceedings should be initiated, it returns what is called an indictment. Based on this indictment, the court causes either a summons or an arrest warrant to be issued. The individual then appears before the district court to answer the charges and enter a plea at an arraignment. Effectively, the grand jury process eliminates the necessity for the preliminary hearing and any proceedings in the magistrate division."

 

[Cool Cats]

On the topic of grand juries, it's really unlikely that the investigation won't involve one as long as charges are pending against BK.

Generally, the grand jury is an alternative vehicle for investigating and charging a crime. Most prosecutors use grand juries to investigate charges in which witnesses can be expected to resist an invitation to be interviewed by investigators - like gang-related crimes, racketeering, political or financial corruption. Grand juries can compel witnesses to testify, and the proceedings and records are confidential.

One Idaho court website has a succinct description.

Grand Juries

"It should be noted that the grand jury system is a mechanism for bringing a serious criminal matter to the district court. A grand jury is a panel of citizens called together to hear evidence and determine if criminal charges should be initiated.

Grand jury proceedings are private and secret, prospective defendants are not entitled to be present at the proceedings, and no one is allowed to cross-examine witnesses on the defendant's behalf. Information presented to the grand jury is presented by prosecuting attorneys.

The grand jury has broad investigative powers and may compel the attendance of witnesses or compel answers to questions and submission of records. If the grand jury determines that criminal proceedings should be initiated, it returns what is called an indictment. Based on this indictment, the court causes either a summons or an arrest warrant to be issued. The individual then appears before the district court to answer the charges and enter a plea at an arraignment. Effectively, the grand jury process eliminates the necessity for the preliminary hearing and any proceedings in the magistrate division."

The BK case is past the GJ phase now.

Prosecutors convene GJ's before arrests. Before bringing indictments.

The prosecution wants to see if they have enough evidence in their case to indict and arrest a defendant.

Never say never, but it is extremely rare that a defendant is indicted and arrested then the prosecutor convenes a GJ.

The next step is the preliminary hearing which is what is happening in this case.

indictment

1. a formal written statement framed by a prosecuting authority and found by a jury (such as a grand jury) charging a person with an offense

 

[jjleroche]

I hope, whatever the outcome, we learn the killer's target: person(s) or place. As mentioned:
1. there were five cars in front of the house, so anyone entering should have expected or prepared for at least five people to be in the house.
2. IMO, if the killer was there to kill for the sake of killing random people, all five of them would have been killed. If the killer studied the layout of the house beforehand, he would have known and the placement of the other three bedrooms.
3. Kaylee's SUV had not been there previously, so if she was a target, the killer had to know she visiting (was her new car/visit posted online?)
4. Entering through the kitchen and back out would also allow someone to avoid the added step by DM's room

The more I read everyone's ideas the more questions I have!

Great points. That five cars in the house's drive-way apparently did not deter the perpetrator is very interesting to me, and IMO says a great deal about the perpetrator, possibly including any one of the following (and likely many more)
1. Supreme confidence (could be completely misplaced, or could be due to previous

2. Utter stupidity
3. An underdeveloped ability to sense danger
4. An overwhelming, unstoppable compulsion
just for starters.





Give cars in the driveway of the house. To enter the house

 

[jjleroche]

I hope, whatever the outcome, we learn the killer's target: person(s) or place. As mentioned:
1. there were five cars in front of the house, so anyone entering should have expected or prepared for at least five people to be in the house.
2. IMO, if the killer was there to kill for the sake of killing random people, all five of them would have been killed. If the killer studied the layout of the house beforehand, he would have known and the placement of the other three bedrooms.
3. Kaylee's SUV had not been there previously, so if she was a target, the killer had to know she visiting (was her new car/visit posted online?)
4. Entering through the kitchen and back out would also allow someone to avoid the added step by DM's room

The more I read everyone's ideas the more questions I have!

Great points. That five cars in the house's drive-way apparently did not deter the perpetrator is very interesting to me, and IMO says a great deal about the perpetrator, possibly including any one of the following (and likely many more)
1. Supreme confidence (could be misplaced, or due to previous successes)
2. Utter stupidity
3. An underdeveloped ability to sense danger
4. An overwhelming, unstoppable compulsion

just for starters.

IMO

 

[jjleroche]

I hope, whatever the outcome, we learn the killer's target: person(s) or place. As mentioned:
1. there were five cars in front of the house, so anyone entering should have expected or prepared for at least five people to be in the house.
2. IMO, if the killer was there to kill for the sake of killing random people, all five of them would have been killed. If the killer studied the layout of the house beforehand, he would have known and the placement of the other three bedrooms.
3. Kaylee's SUV had not been there previously, so if she was a target, the killer had to know she visiting (was her new car/visit posted online?)
4. Entering through the kitchen and back out would also allow someone to avoid the added step by DM's room

The more I read everyone's ideas the more questions I have!

Great points. That five cars in the house's drive-way apparently did not deter the perpetrator is very interesting to me, and IMO says a great deal about the perpetrator, possibly including any one of the following (and likely many more)
1. Supreme confidence (could be misplaced, or due to previous successes)
2. Utter stupidity
3. An underdeveloped ability to sense danger
4. An overwhelming, unstoppable compulsion

just for starters.

IMO

 

[jjleroche]

I hope, whatever the outcome, we learn the killer's target: person(s) or place. As mentioned:
1. there were five cars in front of the house, so anyone entering should have expected or prepared for at least five people to be in the house.
2. IMO, if the killer was there to kill for the sake of killing random people, all five of them would have been killed. If the killer studied the layout of the house beforehand, he would have known and the placement of the other three bedrooms.
3. Kaylee's SUV had not been there previously, so if she was a target, the killer had to know she visiting (was her new car/visit posted online?)
4. Entering through the kitchen and back out would also allow someone to avoid the added step by DM's room

The more I read everyone's ideas the more questions I have!

Great points. That five cars in the house's drive-way apparently did not deter the perpetrator is very interesting to me, and IMO says a great deal about the perpetrator, possibly including any one of the following (and likely many more)
1. Supreme confidence (could be misplaced, or due to previous successes)
2. Utter stupidity
3. An underdeveloped ability to sense danger
4. An overwhelming, unstoppable compulsion

just for starters.

IMO

 

[jjleroche]

I hope, whatever the outcome, we learn the killer's target: person(s) or place. As mentioned:
1. there were five cars in front of the house, so anyone entering should have expected or prepared for at least five people to be in the house.
2. IMO, if the killer was there to kill for the sake of killing random people, all five of them would have been killed. If the killer studied the layout of the house beforehand, he would have known and the placement of the other three bedrooms.
3. Kaylee's SUV had not been there previously, so if she was a target, the killer had to know she visiting (was her new car/visit posted online?)
4. Entering through the kitchen and back out would also allow someone to avoid the added step by DM's room

The more I read everyone's ideas the more questions I have!

Great points. That five cars in the house's drive-way apparently did not deter the perpetrator is very interesting to me, and IMO says a great deal about the perpetrator, possibly including any one of the following (and likely many more)
1. Supreme confidence (could be misplaced, or due to previous successes)
2. Utter stupidity
3. An underdeveloped ability to sense danger
4. An overwhelming, unstoppable compulsion

just for starters.

IMO

 

[maskedwoman]

I would have to believe he PLANNED TO KILL that evening or nobody would be dead. I'm not sure a pattern of "hot prowling" if true really matters if this is a targeted crime, which IMO it clearly was.

I appreciate any insight we can get into these crimes & the perp but I am not comfortable with myth-building. I like facts.

He's a small person in every way except maybe his height. The banality of his evil ways is most striking to me. He pulled off mass murder in darkness with sleeping/resting victims, which was not exactly done well - beyond that there is nothing remarkable about him.

MOP

I'm sorry. I think I left out a sentence that would have made my hot prowling theory more clear. I was trying not to write a book, LOL. I was thinking that he might have developed this process of picking out women, following them home, stalking them for some period of time, with repeat visits, then hot prowling and taking a trophy of some kind. I agree with you that it's more likely he had reached a point where he needed to take things further by killing, and intended to do so that night, but I included the possibility that things just went all to heck, just to consider all the possibilities. MOOooo

 

[jjleroche]

Great points. That five cars in the house's drive-way apparently did not deter the perpetrator is very interesting to me, and IMO says a great deal about the perpetrator, possibly including any one of the following (and likely many more)
1. Supreme confidence (could be completely misplaced, or could be due to previous

2. Utter stupidity
3. An underdeveloped ability to sense danger
4. An overwhelming, unstoppable compulsion
just for starters.





Give cars in the driveway of the house. To enter the house

Apologies - I have somehow managed to post an unfinished reply (above), but also duplicate. I know there's a way to delete one's own duplicates - but unsure what it is - any suggestions? Thank you

 

[Gemmie]

Apologies - I have somehow managed to post an unfinished reply (above), but also duplicate. I know there's a way to delete one's own duplicates - but unsure what it is - any suggestions? Thank you

If within 60 minutes, Edit and delete the content. A lot of us type something like DBM (Deleted By Me). Otherwise, report your post and ask a Mod to remove/delete it.