4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

[Glimma0927]

What I meant was, they got Dad's DNA, ran it and used genealogy to see if it was a familial match to the knife sheath. If that makes sense. JMO

The "genealogy" part usually comes into play when they have a genetic sample without a match in CODIS and no suspects. It would have been done early on in the investigation, IMO, possibly before BK was on anyone's radar. Definitely before his father's DNA was collected in PA.

Plain old genetic analysis would be able to confirm that the DNA they collected from PA belonged to the father of the person who left the knife sheath sample.

 

[schooling]

The "genealogy" part usually comes into play when they have a genetic sample without a match in CODIS and no suspects. It would have been done early on in the investigation, IMO, possibly before BK was on anyone's radar. Definitely before his father's DNA was collected in PA.

Plain old genetic analysis would be able to confirm that the DNA they collected from PA belonged to the father of the person who left the knife sheath sample.

Yes. From everything I’ve read the genealogy search (family tree) led them to BK. It was likely one of the things used to obtain the AT&T warrant (MOO). But not the only thing since it’s still a pretty controversial “lead”.

It’s of my opinion that the defense suspects that prosecutors went into the familial search looking for BK. Reverse engineered the process and worked their way from BK, up the tree up to the sample instead of down from the sample to BK.

Dad’s DNA was run through what was essentially a paternity test. Against the sheath sample. Divorced from the genealogy process.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I feel really sorry for BK's dad and his mom too. It seems like his dad was very proud and protective of him.

I agree that LE were very likely hoping for a BK dna sample from PA trash but ended up with his dad's instead but that was good enough to ensure the arrest. I think after the return on the phone warrant which was 23rd Dec, LE knew for sure BK was in PA because that warrant included a trace on his number. At that point LE needed to get his dna surreptitiously. BK was in PA and had been for over a week. I understand it's not legal to swab a door knob, and even if LE did attempt this at his WA appartment it seems likely to me that BK would have cleaned his door so as to minimise that possibility if he was as careful as has been speculated on these threads - Moo. In any event I believe LE were not going to risk doing anything that wasn't strictly by the book. Moo

It's possible that prior to BK leaving for PA (c 13th Dec?) LE could have attempted to collect a dna sample from BK's WA trash or by some other legal means and been unsuccessful. That would depend on how far along they were at that point in the investigation of him as suspect. Ie - did they have the Pullman video footage of the 2014-2016 elantra for Nov 13th? I think probably yes prior to DEc 13th, but perhaps not the "tip/lead" from fbi on the basis of the genetic genalogy. But even without the fbi "tip", if BK was a POI I don't see why there wouldn't have been an attempt to get a dna sample whilst he was still in WA. But I think BK was too careful and frustrated any attempts that were made. HEnce the trash being collected from PA on 28th Dec. Moo

The fact that BK went to such extreme measures as to separately bag his trash and dispose of it in another neighbor's trashcan @ 3 am points to the fact that he was indeed trying to hide it from LE. I mean who does that unless you're trying to hide something?? And wearing disposable gloves...

I honestly believe BK thought LE was onto him when he left WSU headed home for Christmas break. Those 2 back-to-back traffic stops, even if they weren't purposeful, must have scared the crap out of him.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

If BK is found guilty of murder 1 by the jury, then he proceeds to the sentencing phase. He doesn't need to admit to the crime and I am sure he won't, since it is possible that his defense will file an appeal of his conviction.

If a criminal case is death-eligible, then BK and/or the defense will be able to introduce evidence of mitigating factors. At this stage BK has been convicted of murder 1, and the prosecution has charged him with aggravating circumstances, which are necessary for the case to be death-eligible.

At the start of the sentencing hearing, the jury is instructed that (1) the defendant has been found guilty of murder 1, and (2) that the prosecution is charging BK with aggravating circumstances. Now the jury has to decide if the prosecution has proven or will prove during the sentence hearing that they have evidence of aggravating circumstances beyond a reasonable doubt. If the jury feels that BARD applies to the aggravating cirumstances, then they have to weigh the mitigating factors against the aggravating circumstances and decide if it is just or unjust to impose the death penalty in this case. If
they decide the mitigating factors outweigh the aggravating circumstances, then BK will not recieve the death penalty, but will be sentenced to life without parole.

The jury only needs to decide that one of the aggravating circumstances, if proven to them beyond a reasonable doubt, outweighs the mitigating factors and then BK will be sentenced to death.

One would expect that the defense team and his family will pull out all the stops to present every mitigating factor they can think of in an effort to spare BK's life. That's how it works in death-eligible cases.

And if BK wants to address the sentencing jury on his own behalf, regarding mitigating circumstances, he has that option, and he can't be cross-examined during his remarks to the jury. From what we have seen of BK so far, I think it is unlikely that he will speak to the jury himself, but you never know. We have a lot to see and hear at trial before the sentencing hearing takes place.

Also, if there is an appeal in the works, would the defense team want BK to speak? Maybe certain things would be okay to discuss, and not others. But that would be a tough call, because the death penalty is in play at that point, and an appeal is uncertain.


All imo and IANAL.


edited several typos

Great post, but I have to believe BK will speak on his own behalf at some point in this case. The Defense may definitely not want him to, but it's his choice and I do believe he thinks his Regional Extemporaneous Speech Championship win in 2011 shows he's not afraid to engage his audience and put up an effective argument.

What I think BK lacks is self awareness. I truly don't believe he thinks he comes across as strange, over-stepping personal boundaries, and a bit harassing and judgmental. It certainly will be curious to see if he does decide to address the jury.

MOO

 

[Sundog]

They hadn't found his name through the genealogy search yet, probably, before they were given the name by the U of W Security Officer ?

IDK---it seems like it was all happening simultaneously.

RSBM

I don't remember ever seeing a warrant issued for the search that the WSU police officers did when they searched the parking data base at WSU, looking for a white Elantra among the cars owned by their faculty, staff and students, and then handing that information over to the Mosdow Police Department.

It just seems odd to me that the information that university employees provide in order to park on state university campuses isn't protected like other information and that a search warrant wasn't needed.

Maybe others know why that is the case, and how WSU officers were able to do this without a warrant. Or maybe I missed the warrant information on the long list of warrants and warrant returns issued that many of our researchers here have posted over the course of this case.

 

[pseudo_hum]

Great post, but I have to believe BK will speak on his own behalf at some point in this case. The Defense may definitely not want him to, but it's his choice and I do believe he thinks his Regional Extemporaneous Speech Championship win in 2011 shows he's not afraid to engage his audience and put up an effective argument.

What I think BK lacks is self awareness. I truly don't believe he thinks he comes across as strange, over-stepping personal boundaries, and a bit harassing and judgmental. It certainly will be curious to see if he does decide to address the jury.

MOO

IMO, If you are smarter than anyone else, its hard to be humble.

 

[Montecore1]

Exactly! And coupled with BT's vehicle captured on video at/near the crime scene in the early morning hour, and the ID of one of the victims allegedly found inside his vehicle, he's done.

Source please...

 

[Justice101]

The fact that BK went to such extreme measures as to separately bag his trash and dispose of it in another neighbor's trashcan @ 3 am points to the fact that he was indeed trying to hide it from LE. I mean who does that unless you're trying to hide something?? And wearing disposable gloves...

I honestly believe BK thought LE was onto him when he left WSU headed home for Christmas break. Those 2 back-to-back traffic stops, even if they weren't purposeful, must have scared the crap out of him.

JMO

Yes, agree. I think he thought that LE back in Moscow had connected the dots and had him pulled over in Indiana.

I think paranoia set in and he may have even spotted some undercover vehicle in the neighborhood (electrician van, rota rooter, etc.)

 

[Justice101]

IMO, If you are smarter than anyone else, its hard to be humble.

Yes agree. While truly smart people just know how little they know.

 

[jepop]

RSBM

I don't remember ever seeing a warrant issued for the search that the WSU police officers did when they searched the parking data base at WSU, looking for a white Elantra among the cars owned by their faculty, staff and students, and then handing that information over to the Mosdow Police Department.

It just seems odd to me that the information that university employees provide in order to park on state university campuses isn't protected like other information and that a search warrant wasn't needed.

Maybe others know why that is the case, and how WSU officers were able to do this without a warrant. Or maybe I missed the warrant information on the long list of warrants and warrant returns issued that many of our researchers here have posted over the course of this case.

I haven't researched this but I assume that in the course of an investigation LE have access to some sort of vehicle registration data base. If that is cross referenced with a WSU registered vehicle data base then LE would have access to vehicle rego details only - no other info -ie course of study and personal info- regarding the relevant car owners. Would those kind of vehicle checks require a warrant? IDK, but I am assuming LE were well trained enough in procedure not to break any laws when searching rego details aligning with the suspect vehicle. Other than checking data bases not sure how LE could investigate effectively otherwise. Moo

 

[Megnut]

Investigations are never linear.

There is backtracking, there are parallel investigations, there are tangents, dead ends and developing leads.

IMO LE may have gone the route of genealogy but not in a vacuum, not while stalling other leads. Information pointing to BK was coming from multiple warrant returns, accessing his DNA was troublesome because of the lengths he went to, both at the crime scene and at his respective domecikes. (I wonder if he didn't have the same hypervigilence at his apartment discarding his trash remotely, cleaning the unit and himself with obsession.).

Jmo

 

[Chloegirl]

MOO they were looking for BKs DNA and got Dad's instead because BK was putting his own bio trash in the neighbors bin.
Dads was just as good for the investigation though because the DNA on the knife sheath was just one degree of sepereration from the Dads.

Sad to be doing this to his Dad who obviously stuck with him through thick and thin.

Exactly! This is guilt. IMO

 

[Megnut]

Good points. I'm not sure the sentra has been mentioned by the D though. At least not in the unsealed motions we have seen? The D seem interested in elantra reports Imo. The only place a sentra has been mentioned as far As we know at this point is via and MSM report, Imo. That's not to say that there are not reports in discovery related to LE looking early on at a sentra - only that the D's motions so far haven't mentioned it specifically. Moo

As I understand it, the defense is reverse engineering their argument, like this:

They're saying this is how it went down:

Unknown sub
Unknown car
Focus on BK
Suddenly the car is an Elantra because he has one

But the prosecution is presenting this:
Unknown sub (with DNA on the sheath)
Car, visible on CCTV, likely connected, make, model, year, subject to interpretation
Car located....
BK matched to DNA.

And from this, I think the defense is saying, "when did you start looking for a white ELANTRA of differing model years and why aren't we seeing any corresponding discovery to a lead/conversation we believe happened?

Ergo the appearance of withheld discovery, in the style of IEytan in another thread.

If I understand this right (and I don't claim that I do!), the defense is talking out multiple sides of the face. Rush to judgment, pingeon-holing, discovery violations, the car was made to fit the theory, etc, etc.

But really, if enhanced CCTV delivered a cleaner image of the car, or they were looking for the wrong made at first and the wrong year later, or they didn't have the year right at all, not until they found BK and his car, IMI there's just nothing there to exonerate, exculpate! It's noise. And sometimes that's all a defense has. Table pounding.

FWIW I've never met a murder case where tge defense didn't cry "discovery violation", it's a strategy.

I'm glad they're employing every creative strategy they can. He deserves a rigorous defense.

Followed by a verdict from a jury of his peers.

Unless he hired a twin or a doppelganger to perform poorly as a TA, use his phone, drive his car, carry his sheath...

I think we'll see guilty as charged, BARD, LWOP, if not the DP.

We haven't seen to Prosecution's case in chief. Yet.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

Fear. I don't think BK feels fear. Paranoia maybe.

But I sense a real detachment from him.

From normal interaction, from boundaries, from social cues....

I think there's something in him akin to fascination. Like watching yourself in a movie and wondering what will happen next...

I think he may have wondered which victim, over time, would be His One. And I think, after these murders, he wondered whether, when and how he'd be caught....

Maybe he DID see the 5th roommate, made a mental calculation, let her be so the aftermath of what he'd done would be witnessed and reported apace.... so he could get on with studying it, like a detached criminal justice student, having read about it, not having caused it.

I think he remains in that state. Fascinated, for lack of a more comprehensive term.

Any other field of study, immersion would probably be expected and celebrated.

IMO he's living the dream His.

He. Wanted. To. Know. How. It. Felt.

Jmo

 

[Chloegirl]

Yes. From everything I’ve read the genealogy search (family tree) led them to BK. It was likely one of the things used to obtain the AT&T warrant (MOO). But not the only thing since it’s still a pretty controversial “lead”.

It’s of my opinion that the defense suspects that prosecutors went into the familial search looking for BK. Reverse engineered the process and worked their way from BK, up the tree up to the sample instead of down from the sample to BK.

Dad’s DNA was run through what was essentially a paternity test. Against the sheath sample. Divorced from the genealogy process.

MOO

A little off topic, I noticed your tagline "5.37 Octillion is crazy" (BKs DNA match # for those who are unaware) and randomly I heard one of the commentators put that in perspective. That is more grains of sand than on planet Earth. Something to think about for sure.

 

[iamshadow21]

As I understand it, the defense is reverse engineering their argument, like this:

They're saying this is how it went down:

Unknown sub
Unknown car
Focus on BK
Suddenly the car is an Elantra because he has one

But the prosecution is presenting this:
Unknown sub (with DNA on the sheath)
Car, visible on CCTV, likely connected, make, model, year, subject to interpretation
Car located....
BK matched to DNA.

And from this, I think the defense is saying, "when did you start looking for a white ELANTRA of differing model years and why aren't we seeing any corresponding discovery to a lead/conversation we believe happened?

Ergo the appearance of withheld discovery, in the style of IEytan in another thread.

If I understand this right (and I don't claim that I do!), the defense is talking out multiple sides of the face. Rush to judgment, pingeon-holing, discovery violations, the car was made to fit the theory, etc, etc.

But really, if enhanced CCTV delivered a cleaner image of the car, or they were looking for the wrong made at first and the wrong year later, or they didn't have the year right at all, not until they found BK and his car, IMI there's just nothing there to exonerate, exculpate! It's noise. And sometimes that's all a defense has. Table pounding.

FWIW I've never met a murder case where tge defense didn't cry "discovery violation", it's a strategy.

I'm glad they're employing every creative strategy they can. He deserves a rigorous defense.

Followed by a verdict from a jury of his peers.

Unless he hired a twin or a doppelganger to perform poorly as a TA, use his phone, drive his car, carry his sheath...

I think we'll see guilty as charged, BARD, LWOP, if not the DP.

We haven't seen to Prosecution's case in chief. Yet.

JMO

And, just to add on to your already excellent post, the thing is... the blurry shot of his car does not EXCLUDE a rough description of BK's car.

It's not like he drove an orange stretch Hummer with party lights.

Or couldn't drive, and so exclusively traveled on foot or by public transport or by unicycle while juggling things on fire.

He drove a white car of roughly the appearance of the car in the footage.

Like DM's witness account of the perp does not exclude BK, the footage does not exclude his car, it fits the rough parameters, and therefore, it doesn't matter whatever years or models were considered during the early part of the investigation. Interpretation of evidence evolves and is refined as an investigation progresses.

MOO

 

[Boxer]

Apparemtly the defense is suggesting

And, just to add on to your already excellent post, the thing is... the blurry shot of his car does not EXCLUDE a rough description of BK's car.

It's not like he drove an orange stretch Hummer with party lights.

Or couldn't drive, and so exclusively traveled on foot or by public transport or by unicycle while juggling things on fire.

He drove a white car of roughly the appearance of the car in the footage.

Like DM's witness account of the perp does not exclude BK, the footage does not exclude his car, it fits the rough parameters, and therefore, it doesn't matter whatever years or models were considered during the early part of the investigation. Interpretation of evidence evolves and is refined as an investigation progresses.

MOO

Exactly.
MOO the "if NASA can send a man to the moon, why can't you make a good cup of coffee?" defense.

 

[iamshadow21]

Apparemtly the defense is suggesting

Exactly.
MOO the "if NASA can send a man to the moon, why can't you make a good cup of coffee?" defense.

I'm not familiar with that phrase, so I googled, and the first hits are all actual NASA pages about coffee in space. I laughed.

Are you quoting something particular, or is it just a turn of phrase I haven't heard before today?

 

[10ofRods]

Genetic genealogy doesn't really work like that. If they had BKs name from the car and then gathered his father's dna in PA and got a match to the dna from the sheath, they wouldn't need to do genetic genealogy.

Genetic genealogy gives you a name when you have no name and no one to test. You have a profile, load it to GEDmatch and it gives you familial matches. You then use those matches to build a tree. How quickly you can do that depends on the matches. I would consider second and third cousins from paternal and/or maternal lines to be great matches and could probably come up with BKs name in an hour or so because you'd only have to build back to great or great-great grandparents and then build forward to all their descendants. The percentage of dna shared by the unknown and the known matches would confirm you're on the right track.

This case is unusual because I think it might be the only known case at this time where this method was used during an active investigation to identify someone with dna that didn't have a hit in CODIS. It had previously been used for John and Jane Doe identifications and cold cases. But it was only a matter of time that it became an investigative tool in active cases.

Joe DeAngelo was found using genetic genealogy. Two men came up on GEDMatch, but he was the only one living near the victims. And when they looked into his work history, they could see rapes and murders and so on taking place as he moved around California. So they got his DNA from his car door handle and arrested him, famously, while he was trying to cook a pot roast.

 

[iamshadow21]

Joe DeAngelo was found using genetic genealogy. Two men came up on GEDMatch, but he was the only one living near the victims. And when they looked into his work history, they could see rapes and murders and so on taking place as he moved around California. So they got his DNA from his car door handle and arrested him, famously, while he was trying to cook a pot roast.

Also, if I recall correctly, the distant cousin of about the same age who also popped up gave his DNA when asked without hesitation and was ruled out very quickly.

MOO