4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

[ilovewings]

I don't know if they can be forced to look at anything.
If a juror isn't willing to look at the crime scene photos, then they should not be on the jury in a death penalty case. The victims and their families deserve their full attention.

JMO

I have never heard of a jury not looking at the photos of decedents no matter how awful they might be- I suppose if there is a concern that question could be asked during voir dire

 

[Cool Cats]

Just because the defense implies something doesn't make it true... suggesting there's something nefarious or withheld in the short step from Sentra to Elantra, as if the Prosecution fit the car to the man and there isn't a DNA match to the man, the weapon and the crime scene.

Regardless, could there have been two cars? A Sentra with two people in the front (think Uber or Lyft or Doordash in a college town) and LE did think they might have seen something, by virtue of being in the general vicinity during the span between 3 and 4:30am -- and they did come forward and LE did confirm.

In another case presently awaiting re-arrest, the defense continues to assert that there's exculpatory DNA that the Prosecution withheld, belonging to career criminals, even though that DNA has been investigated and has no ties at all to the crime at hand.

If the Sentra was another car in the area, now vetted, or the early lead in the investigation, tightened up with clarity, it doesn't help BK. IMO it shows how little his defense has to go on.

All that information (CCTV, warrants, enhancements) is probably buried somewhere in the terabytes anyway, but crying foul is a defense strategy, and frequently an effective one.

Jmo

To me that weird stare and bulging looks like when people are using / abusing amphetamines.

Maybe if he was once diagnosed as hypothyroid then he's medicated?

To me he looks anxious, hyper-vigilant, startled, uncomfortable, much too pale, sunken eyes, and too thin. Only because I've been around a lot of people with both active addiction and / or severe mental health problems in the course of my life, would I say to me he looks like he's edgy from an amphetamine type drug -or- he's edgy from some serious mental angst. JMO MOO better not say any more as we're not to speak to his mental health here on this site as there's been no evidence of any known issues aside from VSSNoNo

No ..... !

I have an adult trans niece who is on the spectrum. She’s college educated and academically gifted and grew up in a loving home with two parents who nurtured and love her. My niece painfully lacks social skills and has the a similar effect as Bryan. I don't imagine growing up with females had much influence on Bryan’s interpersonal skills.

Absolutely.

<modsnip: Please do not circumvent WS board profanity filters.>

 

[Pitsleuth]

If mental health issues are introduced at a sentencing hearing for BK (if convicted and if the sentencing jury decides there are aggravating circumstances that warrant a possible death sentence), then I think the issue would be the effects of the disease on BK and his life life. The defense doesn't have to prove that the disease itself caused the murder.

A mitigating factor does not have to constitute a defense or excuse or justification for the crime, nor does it even have to reduce the degree of the defendant’s blame for the crime.

In that regard, my instructions given at the end of the trial that you were not to allow sympathy for the defendant to enter your deliberations do not apply at this sentencing proceeding. Mitigating factors may include any fact or circumstance that inspires sympathy, compassion or mercy for the defendant.

Idaho Criminal Code, Jury Instructions in Death Eligible Case (ICJI 1717 Mitigation)

Criminal Jury Instructions | Supreme Court

isc.idaho.gov

If BK's social media postings of the impact if this disease on him at age 15 was read to the jury, it is possible that at least one juror would have sympathy for BK on this mitigating factor. Other mitigating factors would also likely be introduced in order to inspire compassion or sympathy among one or more members of the jury. Just as the prosecution has included aggravating circumstances to the murder charges which make BK eligible for the death penalty sentence, so do the mitigating facotrs produced by the defendant and/or defense provide the jury with the option to weigh the mitigating factors against the aggravating factors and decide if BK will be sentenced to death or LWOP.

Also, I am sure that if the defense plans to use this disease as a possible mitigation factor at a future sentencing hearing if BK is convicted, then they would no doubt eliminate a juror who has suffered from this disease themselves.

I would think that the defense is thinking ahead to a possible sentence hearing and what mitigating factors they would present if BK is convicted of murder with aggravating circumstances, and that this will have an impact on jury selection. This, along with other issues related to the trial itself.

Question to the group- do these mitigating factors presented by the defense at sentencing typically only occur if the accused admits to the crime after being found guilty? It would seem strange to say “he still didn’t do it. But if he did, here’s why and so you shouldn’t give him the DP”.

 

[maskedwoman]

Assume they were his own ID cards as they were removed from glove compartment of his car IIRC - a car that he had cleaned out. Why would he retain other people's cards? JMO MOO

I could be wrong, but it doesn't make sense to me that they would take old ID cards of his during a search for evidence. Based on the warrant returns, they didn't take very many of his personal items, so I don't see why they would take his old ID cards. Now, if they all belonged to young women, I could see them taking those. MOOooo

 

[schooling]

I could be wrong, but it doesn't make sense to me that they would take old ID cards of his during a search for evidence. Based on the warrant returns, they didn't take very many of his personal items, so I don't see why they would take his old ID cards. Now, if they all belonged to young women, I could see them taking those. MOOooo

The defense likely has an inventory of whatever LE got in January. That’s not my expert opinion of course. I’m assuming they do since we’ve seen the wave of warrants that were sent out around the same time.

Does anyone think that there are any interpretations of the defenses statement, paraphrasing here, that they’ve yet to see evidence of BK having a connection with any of the victims - that would allow for their IDs to be in the car and for the defense to know while still threading a needle of words and making said statement.

Apologies for the run on sentence. Hope that makes sense.

MOO

 

[jepop]

Exactly! And coupled with BT's vehicle captured on video at/near the crime scene in the early morning hour, and the ID of one of the victims allegedly found inside his vehicle, he's done.

I think the ID cards "inside a glove inside a box" were seized from the PA residence, not from the car or in the glove box of the car. I believe, Imo, that there was a mis-report by an MSM outlet at some point that claimed they were seized from the elantra, but when you look at the ROI of the elantra (actually posted up-thread here for another reason) there are no IDs mentioned. They are mentioned in the ROI for the PA house however. Moo

ROIs on elantra and PA residence can be found here
Commonwealth v. Kohberger 682 MD 2022 | Cases of Public Interest | News & Statistics | Unified Judicial System of Pennsylvania

 

[jepop]

I'm always baffled by the concept of criminally insane even though I fully understand about the being considered not culpable for one's behaviour on the grounds of psychiatric disorder.

My main sticking point is that only someone profoundly 'not sane' would do this. Whereas mercenary killings or hit men are doing a cold blooded heartless job for a reason, this sort of act seems so beyond the pale that how could anyone really argue the killer was of sound mind? Not speaking specific to BK here, speaking in general terms.

I see what you are saying I think, but Imo those in the profession of for hire as hitman/woman, are similarly not of 'sound' and/or 'reasonable' mind either. Sure, there is the ostensible reason - money and [illegal/taboo] 'profession'- but it takes something other to be a "cold blooded" killer be that for money, revenge, envy or some other emotional reasoning. Moo

 

[wendy44]

I don't think they got the name back from the sheath DNA until they did the family tree with the DNA from the PA garbage cans.

They ran the sheath DNA in Codis and didn't get a match. They went to a lot of effort, time and trouble to go the genealogy route to try and match the sheath. And that process didn't start until they had his fathers DNA gathered in PA.

Genetic genealogy doesn't really work like that. If they had BKs name from the car and then gathered his father's dna in PA and got a match to the dna from the sheath, they wouldn't need to do genetic genealogy.

Genetic genealogy gives you a name when you have no name and no one to test. You have a profile, load it to GEDmatch and it gives you familial matches. You then use those matches to build a tree. How quickly you can do that depends on the matches. I would consider second and third cousins from paternal and/or maternal lines to be great matches and could probably come up with BKs name in an hour or so because you'd only have to build back to great or great-great grandparents and then build forward to all their descendants. The percentage of dna shared by the unknown and the known matches would confirm you're on the right track.

This case is unusual because I think it might be the only known case at this time where this method was used during an active investigation to identify someone with dna that didn't have a hit in CODIS. It had previously been used for John and Jane Doe identifications and cold cases. But it was only a matter of time that it became an investigative tool in active cases.

 

[katydid23]

Genetic genealogy doesn't really work like that. If they had BKs name from the car and then gathered his father's dna in PA and got a match to the dna from the sheath, they wouldn't need to do genetic genealogy.

Genetic genealogy gives you a name when you have no name and no one to test. You have a profile, load it to GEDmatch and it gives you familial matches. You then use those matches to build a tree. How quickly you can do that depends on the matches. I would consider second and third cousins from paternal and/or maternal lines to be great matches and could probably come up with BKs name in an hour or so because you'd only have to build back to great or great-great grandparents and then build forward to all their descendants. The percentage of dna shared by the unknown and the known matches would confirm you're on the right track.

This case is unusual because I think it might be the only known case at this time where this method was used during an active investigation to identify someone with dna that didn't have a hit in CODIS. It had previously been used for John and Jane Doe identifications and cold cases. But it was only a matter of time that it became an investigative tool in active cases.

What I meant was, they got Dad's DNA, ran it and used genealogy to see if it was a familial match to the knife sheath. If that makes sense. JMO

 

[jepop]

I don't think they got the name back from the sheath DNA until they did the family tree with the DNA from the PA garbage cans.

They ran the sheath DNA in Codis and didn't get a match. They went to a lot of effort, time and trouble to go the genealogy route to try and match the sheath. And that process didn't start until they had his fathers DNA gathered in PA.


They didn't 'change' the model year---they opened up the possible matches by expanding the years to include later models.

I think they realised that the later models looked very similar and they didn't want to rule them all out, prematurely.

They may have received a tip about a criminology student in a neighboring town, who drove a later model Elantra. In looking at further video, they may have decided that they couldn't rule out later model white Elantras altogether.

I don't see that as a problem. That is a normal investigative procedure. Things are fluid and ever changing. JMO

RBB: I'm pretty sure the gentic genealogy investigations carried out by the fbi were separate to the gathering of the trash dna which occurred on 28th December. Moo. The trash was taken express to Idaho from PA, and the Idaho state lab made the comparison with the 'suspect sample' on the sheath button - that test showed that the donor of the sheath button dna was 99.999998% (approx) likely to be the son of the male dna collected from the trash (or it might have been the other way round actually - the donor of the trash dna was 99.9998% likely to be the father of the donor of suspect sample on the sheath button). See PCA for refs.

Point is that the genetic genealogy investigation occurred before this - and Imo aided in the narrowing down of BK from POI to suspect. There were also Imo other factors at play to narrow him down - beginning on 29 November when he was identified via his vehicle. At some point either before or possibly soon after that date LE would have pulled the Pullman video footage on 2014-2016 elantra leaving and arriving back in Pullman in the early am of Nov 13th. However, this would not have been married to BK's phone pings until 23rd December when the warrant for his phone data was acquired. Moo

 

[jepop]

Just because the defense implies something doesn't make it true... suggesting there's something nefarious or withheld in the short step from Sentra to Elantra, as if the Prosecution fit the car to the man and there isn't a DNA match to the man, the weapon and the crime scene.

Regardless, could there have been two cars? A Sentra with two people in the front (think Uber or Lyft or Doordash in a college town) and LE did think they might have seen something, by virtue of being in the general vicinity during the span between 3 and 4:30am -- and they did come forward and LE did confirm.

In another case presently awaiting re-arrest, the defense continues to assert that there's exculpatory DNA that the Prosecution withheld, belonging to career criminals, even though that DNA has been investigated and has no ties at all to the crime at hand.

If the Sentra was another car in the area, now vetted, or the early lead in the investigation, tightened up with clarity, it doesn't help BK. IMO it shows how little his defense has to go on.

All that information (CCTV, warrants, enhancements) is probably buried somewhere in the terabytes anyway, but crying foul is a defense strategy, and frequently an effective one.

Jmo

Good points. I'm not sure the sentra has been mentioned by the D though. At least not in the unsealed motions we have seen? The D seem interested in elantra reports Imo. The only place a sentra has been mentioned as far As we know at this point is via and MSM report, Imo. That's not to say that there are not reports in discovery related to LE looking early on at a sentra - only that the D's motions so far haven't mentioned it specifically. Moo

 

[wendy44]

What I meant was, they got Dad's DNA, ran it and used genealogy to see if it was a familial match to the knife sheet. If that makes sense. JMO

Yes, that does make sense and they definitely got his dad's dna and ran it to get a match to BK. I don't think we know for sure though how they got the dad's name. They never confirmed they got BKs name through genetic genealogy but the defense motions are asking for their research so they must have used it.

They may have gotten BKs name from finding the car and running the plates, then testing the dad. There have been reports they got BKs name from using genetic genealogy with the unknown dna from the sheath and ran his dad's in PA to confirm.

If they got it from running the plates on his car, we know that they had the car first, then BKs name from investigating the car.

If they got his name from genetic genealogy, we don't have a date for when they got the name.

 

[jepop]

Yes, that does make sense and they definitely got his dad's dna and ran it to get a match to BK. I don't think we know for sure though how they got the dad's name. They never confirmed they got BKs name through genetic genealogy but the defense motions are asking for their research so they must have used it.

They may have gotten BKs name from finding the car and running the plates, then testing the dad. There have been reports they got BKs name from using genetic genealogy with the unknown dna from the sheath and ran his dad's in PA to confirm.

If they got it from running the plates on his car, we know that they had the car first, then BKs name from investigating the car.

If they got his name from genetic genealogy, we don't have a date for when they got the name.

Just in regards to the dad's name: I think LE would have easily been able to find that out by 28th Dec when trash was taken from PA. By that time they had BK's phone records etc and would have easily been able to ascertain who his parents were. The fbi had BK under surveilance in PA in the days prior to surreptitiously obtaining the trash from kerbside Imo- and knew that besides BK, Mr K senior was the only other male currently resident in the house. The paternal match was enough to put the icing on the cake for the arrest warrant that was issued the next day - I think it was the 29th Dec. Four buccal swabs of BK's cheek were taken as soon as the warrant was executed. Moo

 

[katydid23]

Yes, that does make sense and they definitely got his dad's dna and ran it to get a match to BK. I don't think we know for sure though how they got the dad's name. They never confirmed they got BKs name through genetic genealogy but the defense motions are asking for their research so they must have used it.

They hadn't found his name through the genealogy search yet, probably, before they were given the name by the U of W Security Officer ?

They may have gotten BKs name from finding the car and running the plates, then testing the dad. There have been reports they got BKs name from using genetic genealogy with the unknown dna from the sheath and ran his dad's in PA to confirm.

If they got it from running the plates on his car, we know that they had the car first, then BKs name from investigating the car.

If they got his name from genetic genealogy, we don't have a date for when they got the name.

IDK---it seems like it was all happening simultaneously.

 

[wendy44]

They hadn't found his name through the genealogy search yet, probably, before they were given the name by the U of W Security Officer ?

IDK---it seems like it was all happening simultaneously.

I don't know--I'm definitely curious about the timeline. The PCA says the plates were run 11/29 by two different officers and at some point after that his license was pulled and his photo was compared to the description given by DM.

I don't know if that was before or after his family was zeroed in on by the genetic genealogy.

 

[Sundog]

Question to the group- do these mitigating factors presented by the defense at sentencing typically only occur if the accused admits to the crime after being found guilty? It would seem strange to say “he still didn’t do it. But if he did, here’s why and so you shouldn’t give him the DP”.

If BK is found guilty of murder 1 by the jury, then he proceeds to the sentencing phase. He doesn't need to admit to the crime and I am sure he won't, since it is possible that his defense will file an appeal of his conviction.

If a criminal case is death-eligible, then BK and/or the defense will be able to introduce evidence of mitigating factors. At this stage BK has been convicted of murder 1, and the prosecution has charged him with aggravating circumstances, which are necessary for the case to be death-eligible.

At the start of the sentencing hearing, the jury is instructed that (1) the defendant has been found guilty of murder 1, and (2) that the prosecution is charging BK with aggravating circumstances. Now the jury has to decide if the prosecution has proven or will prove during the sentence hearing that they have evidence of aggravating circumstances beyond a reasonable doubt. If the jury feels that BARD applies to the aggravating cirumstances, then they have to weigh the mitigating factors against the aggravating circumstances and decide if it is just or unjust to impose the death penalty in this case. If
they decide the mitigating factors outweigh the aggravating circumstances, then BK will not recieve the death penalty, but will be sentenced to life without parole.

The jury only needs to decide that one of the aggravating circumstances, if proven to them beyond a reasonable doubt, outweighs the mitigating factors and then BK will be sentenced to death.

One would expect that the defense team and his family will pull out all the stops to present every mitigating factor they can think of in an effort to spare BK's life. That's how it works in death-eligible cases.

And if BK wants to address the sentencing jury on his own behalf, regarding mitigating circumstances, he has that option, and he can't be cross-examined during his remarks to the jury. From what we have seen of BK so far, I think it is unlikely that he will speak to the jury himself, but you never know. We have a lot to see and hear at trial before the sentencing hearing takes place.

Also, if there is an appeal in the works, would the defense team want BK to speak? Maybe certain things would be okay to discuss, and not others. But that would be a tough call, because the death penalty is in play at that point, and an appeal is uncertain.


All imo and IANAL.


edited several typos

 

[Boxer]

What I meant was, they got Dad's DNA, ran it and used genealogy to see if it was a familial match to the knife sheath. If that makes sense. JMO

MOO they were looking for BKs DNA and got Dad's instead because BK was putting his own bio trash in the neighbors bin.
Dads was just as good for the investigation though because the DNA on the knife sheath was just one degree of sepereration from the Dads.

Sad to be doing this to his Dad who obviously stuck with him through thick and thin.

 

[wendy44]

MOO they were lookimg for BKs DNA and got Dad's instead because BK was putting his won bio trash in the neighbors bin.
Dads was just as good for PCA though because the DNA on the knife sheath was just one degree of sepereration for the Dads.

Sad to be doing this to his Dad who obviously stuck with him through thick and thin.

Yes--that's a good point. I had read it's easier legally to grab a sample from "discarded" dna in PA than in WA, but if BK was already back in PA by the time they went to retrieve a sample they were probably looking for his but happy to have a family match.

 

[Boxer]

What I meant was, they got Dad's DNA, ran it and used genealogy to see if it was a familial match to the knife sheath. If that makes sense. JMO

MOO No genealogy was needed after Dad DNA was collected since it was a one seperation match directly to the sheath.

 

[jepop]

MOO they were looking for BKs DNA and got Dad's instead because BK was putting his own bio trash in the neighbors bin.
Dads was just as good for the investigation though because the DNA on the knife sheath was just one degree of sepereration from the Dads.

Sad to be doing this to his Dad who obviously stuck with him through thick and thin.

I feel really sorry for BK's dad and his mom too. It seems like his dad was very proud and protective of him.

I agree that LE were very likely hoping for a BK dna sample from PA trash but ended up with his dad's instead but that was good enough to ensure the arrest. I think after the return on the phone warrant which was 23rd Dec, LE knew for sure BK was in PA because that warrant included a trace on his number. At that point LE needed to get his dna surreptitiously. BK was in PA and had been for over a week. I understand it's not legal to swab a door knob, and even if LE did attempt this at his WA appartment it seems likely to me that BK would have cleaned his door so as to minimise that possibility if he was as careful as has been speculated on these threads - Moo. In any event I believe LE were not going to risk doing anything that wasn't strictly by the book. Moo

It's possible that prior to BK leaving for PA (c 13th Dec?) LE could have attempted to collect a dna sample from BK's WA trash or by some other legal means and been unsuccessful. That would depend on how far along they were at that point in the investigation of him as suspect. Ie - did they have the Pullman video footage of the 2014-2016 elantra for Nov 13th? I think probably yes prior to DEc 13th, but perhaps not the "tip/lead" from fbi on the basis of the genetic genalogy. But even without the fbi "tip", if BK was a POI I don't see why there wouldn't have been an attempt to get a dna sample whilst he was still in WA. But I think BK was too careful and frustrated any attempts that were made. HEnce the trash being collected from PA on 28th Dec. Moo