4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

[Odeto BJ]

If BK's social media postings of the impact if this disease on him at age 15 was read to the jury, it is possible that at least one juror would have sympathy for BK on this mitigating factor. Other mitigating factors would also likely be introduced in order to inspire compassion or sympathy among one or more members of the jury. Just as the prosecution has included aggravating circumstances to the murder charges which make BK eligible for the death penalty sentence, so do the mitigating facotrs produced by the defendant and/or defense provide the jury with the option to weigh the mitigating factors against the aggravating factors and decide if BK will be sentenced to death or LWOP.

Also, I am sure that if the defense plans to use this disease as a possible mitigation factor at a future sentencing hearing if BK is convicted, then they would no doubt eliminate a juror who has suffered from this disease themselves.

I would think that the defense is thinking ahead to a possible sentence hearing and what mitigating factors they would present if BK is convicted of murder with aggravating circumstances, and that this will have an impact on jury selection. This, along with other issues related to the trial itself.

Truncated for Focus, by me.

Good observation, Sundog...and could be indicative of some Defense strategy.
IANAL but MOO: for jury selection and voir dire, I would think the Defense would be well served to get the condition listed on the presumptive questioning....Moreover, I would presume that the Judge would strike the question unless there were some proof that the defendant suffered from the condition.

Reaching further: If there were no (accurate, relevant) diagnosis from a PA health professional from years prior, I would posit that D would be pursuing the diagnosis now; as they should with any other identifiable and mitigating condition that BK might have. Otherwise it may never get incorporated into the presumptive portion of VD interrogatory. Moreover: they might get a preferred and specific diagnosis as opposed to whatever was recorded, and can be accessed, from analysis applied to a teenager ten years ago.

So D would be well served to get a group of appropriate and accredited professionals to develop and record a diagnosis, any diagnosis that could be mitigating, now, as opposed to between the phases of a trial: barring them knowing that the trial will never reach the penalty phase. If they were to rely on just what they can source from PA at some future date, they could take the third strike, looking...

Any of the legal types here have comment? Speculative and MOO as always.

 

[Odeto BJ]

It appears to me that the defense is, on one hand, suspicious that LE & prosecution focused too quickly on BK (as evidenced by their questioning of the timing of tying the identity of the car to BK). While, on the other hand, being critical about the elimination processes involved in an effective investigation (as though they took too long identifying the correct make, model, year).​

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Seems hypocritical to me, to suggest that the investigation cast too broad a net while at the same time suggesting that it was hyperfocused on one sole suspect.​

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Edited 'cause I forgot MOO again. ​

That dichotomy can be demonstrated on more topics than just the pursuit of the car. We are going to hear a lot I believe on how much interview time was applied by various portions of LE to the survivors and to all the "inner circle" associations for each of the victims and each person that the victims interacted with on the critical night...and how it was too much, and not enough, in each and every case. Some of it may even be accurate.

Multiple OP referred to the Spaghetti defense. With this D team, I think its Spaghetti, Linguini, Fettucini, Rigatoni, Penne and maybe the kitchen sink.

And lest we forget: MOO

 

[wendy44]

I think the only reason the change in what car they identified in the video is important is the fact that there's one bit of information we don't have--when did they get a name back from the sheath.

The PCA indicates the examiners were revising their assessment as they viewed more video. This is perfectly reasonable and understandable and normal to many cases and I don't see that as a problem at all. The defense can and will exploit that to create reasonable doubt, that's their job.

If they changed their assessment of what car it was after they had BKs name and knew what he drove, you have to wonder if they changed their minds because they had that information and want the car to fit the defendant and not the defendant to fit the car. As someone who doesn't know cars that well, I would be relying heavily on the expert witness's assessment and they would need to be credible to me. Changing the model or model year with additional experts and video is credible. Changing the model or model year because you now know what the defendant drove is not credible.

But, reading the PCA, it really seems that they narrowed down the later model Elantra through viewing more video before they had the name from the dna on the sheath. That and the lack of front license plate--if they can show those two things in that timeline, the evidence is very solid against the defendant. Honestly, if they reported that the vehicle lacked a front license plate before they had BKs name, that's way more important and convincing to me than having the make and model right. The chances are so slim that could be a coincidence.

 

[Seattle1]

Possible Mitigating Factor. Mold in House?

snipped for focus @Sundog
Not trying to be a smart aleck, but your post about poss. mitigating factor prompted me to think about this. BTW but I did not search to see if a def't. has tried it.

"A person who knew Kohberger at the time of the posts told ABC News he had seen the posts and was "extremely confident" they were Kohberger's, citing Kohberger's complaints at the time about his issues with visual snow syndrome as well as a reference in the posts to living in a house with mold problems."*
__________________________
* ETA: link to Dec. 31, 2022 story.

Idaho murders suspect wrote about 'delusions of grandeur' in online forum

University of Idaho quadruple murder suspect Bryan Kohberger posted in an online forum years ago that he had "crazy thoughts."

abc7news.com

Also from the quoted news link:

None of the posts viewed by ABC News suggested Kohberger's alleged illness made him prone to violence. Experts caution that people with mental illness are no more likely to be violent than anybody else. In fact, they are 10 times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime. But in this case, police say Kohberger is their main suspect.

I concur with all the above. IMO, the posts alleged by BK appear to describe symptoms of depression and anti-social disorder whereas research also suggests there is little relationship between mental illness and violence when substance use is NOT involved. I believe there's confirmation of substance use here.

How odd BK can cite a date certain for his alleged onset of VSS or Sept 21, 2009. I'm more inclined to think this was the date of an event such as a boxing incident than the date of a diagnosis.

Relative to the dedicated boxing regime during this period, I think I'd question the homicidal violence as behavior possibly linked to chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), associated with repeated blows to the head, long before VSS. Star athlete Aaron Hernandez comes to mind. JMO

 

[10ofRods]

Truncated for Focus, by me.

Good observation, Sundog...and could be indicative of some Defense strategy.
IANAL but MOO: for jury selection and voir dire, I would think the Defense would be well served to get the condition listed on the presumptive questioning....Moreover, I would presume that the Judge would strike the question unless there were some proof that the defendant suffered from the condition.

Reaching further: If there were no (accurate, relevant) diagnosis from a PA health professional from years prior, I would posit that D would be pursuing the diagnosis now; as they should with any other identifiable and mitigating condition that BK might have. Otherwise it may never get incorporated into the presumptive portion of VD interrogatory. Moreover: they might get a preferred and specific diagnosis as opposed to whatever was recorded, and can be accessed, from analysis applied to a teenager ten years ago.

So D would be well served to get a group of appropriate and accredited professionals to develop and record a diagnosis, any diagnosis that could be mitigating, now, as opposed to between the phases of a trial: barring them knowing that the trial will never reach the penalty phase. If they were to rely on just what they can source from PA at some future date, they could take the third strike, looking...

Any of the legal types here have comment? Speculative and MOO as always.

I am not a lawyer, but I will say that it would benefit the defense to at least be able to introduce the issue. But perhaps that's not their first order of business (although we wouldn't know, I guess, whether he's been seen in jail by any neurological specialist)

But I truly believe that Kohberger tries very hard to live a life outside the "disabled" category that he might have been claiming when he was in his teens (certainly, at the community college, he did do a project on "hidden disabilities" for his honors program). I agree it would be helpful to the defense.

Thank you for this post. It makes me think that the Defense would keep this card for later (even if they have already done as you suggested). At the same time, it's possible that Kohberger is refusing to have himself studied as a person with a disability. I say this because I'm guessing he worked very hard to get to the point where he was a confident driver and may have a lot of pride in his "normal" functioning.

imo

 

[Chloegirl]

Also from the quoted news link:

None of the posts viewed by ABC News suggested Kohberger's alleged illness made him prone to violence. Experts caution that people with mental illness are no more likely to be violent than anybody else. In fact, they are 10 times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime. But in this case, police say Kohberger is their main suspect.

I concur with all the above. IMO, the posts alleged by BK appear to describe symptoms of depression and anti-social disorder whereas research also suggests there is little relationship between mental illness and violence when substance use is NOT involved. I believe there's confirmation of substance use here.

How odd BK can cite a date certain for his alleged onset of VSS or Sept 21, 2009. I'm more inclined to think this was the date of an event such as a boxing incident than the date of a diagnosis.

Relative to the dedicated boxing regime during this period, I think I'd question the homicidal violence as behavior possibly linked to chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), associated with repeated blows to the head, long before VSS. Star athlete Aaron Hernandez comes to mind. JMO

I can agree. I think we're looking for explanations of how these things happen. I, for one, am not interested in his use of it for a defense strategy. Although it may come into play. I think I'm more interested in explaining to my brain how he got to a point of murder. JMOO

What I can't figure out is does he want to be exonerated, or elevated like BTK. I think he would prefer the former but accept the latter. Oy!

 

[schooling]

I agree the prosecution will be able to show BaRD that SV1 is Bk's elantra but do have to point out that the three point turn, at around 4.04am intersection of Queen and King on 13 Nov, isn't connected to cellular data that we now of at this point. Three pointer ocurred during the two hour time span when his phone was disconnected from the network and BK's number did not show on geo fence warrants. There may be another cellular connection we are not aware of if his phone was only in airplane mode. Regardless however, I believe that LE have done their due diligence and eliminated other possible owners/drivers of white elantras during the relevant time frame and in the relevant neighbourhood and will demonstrate that SV1 can reasonably be surmised as the defendant's vehicle.Moo

ETA: Agree that initially looking out for Sentras (as per MSM) is not well represented as a Gaffe! As you and others point out, investigations are fluid and change direction over time as new info/footage becomes availabe and new analyses take place. Moo

Yep. I screwed up my wording. I meant visual cues from video attached to cell data will connect to visual cues on the 3 point turn video.

Connecting the cars for those that claim that Scroedinger’s Elantra disappeared completely at the intersection in Pullman. Only to magically appear in a grocery store parking spot the next morning.

 

[schooling]

Also from the quoted news link:

None of the posts viewed by ABC News suggested Kohberger's alleged illness made him prone to violence. Experts caution that people with mental illness are no more likely to be violent than anybody else. In fact, they are 10 times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime. But in this case, police say Kohberger is their main suspect.

I concur with all the above. IMO, the posts alleged by BK appear to describe symptoms of depression and anti-social disorder whereas research also suggests there is little relationship between mental illness and violence when substance use is NOT involved. I believe there's confirmation of substance use here.

How odd BK can cite a date certain for his alleged onset of VSS or Sept 21, 2009. I'm more inclined to think this was the date of an event such as a boxing incident than the date of a diagnosis.

Relative to the dedicated boxing regime during this period, I think I'd question the homicidal violence as behavior possibly linked to chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), associated with repeated blows to the head, long before VSS. Star athlete Aaron Hernandez comes to mind. JMO

I totally understand why we refrain from placing stigma on mental illness and that what BK is describing may have not been a contributing factor.

But when you read someone say that they feel nothing when they look at their family’s faces or when they see other humans. And that they ‘mind as well be video game characters’….dots naturally start to connect when you think of the extreme lack of empathy and disconnection it takes to walk into a a total strangers house and walk away with 4 of their lives.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

If you have a rare or orphan disease, you will remember the date it was finally diagnosed. It usually takes a long time, often years, before a definitive diagnosis is confirmed so - it's a BIG date for you.

Could it be that the "september 21st of 2009" date he refers to in his VSS forum is the date of his dx?

 

[Barry]

BK's defense is stirring things up (as you would expect). There is one immutable fact in this case, their clients DNA, a 100% match, is on the knife sheath found at the crime scene. Not even MOO - it is a fact. No amount of smoke and mirrors will change that fact.

 

[Glimma0927]

Serial killers often don't personally know their victims.

JMO

Yes! And I have suspicions that he didn't plan for this to be a one-off event. I think he wanted to make murder a part-time vocation, IMHO. If this was his first time, it didn't go as smoothly as expected. His initial reaction afterward might have been to get rid of all of his killing tools and never do it again. But had he not been caught, I'm guessing that the itch to murder would have bubbled up again and he would have learned from the mistakes he made at King Rd. I hope they got the right suspect, because this is the work of a budding serial killer, IMO.

 

[Seattle1]

BK's defense is stirring things up (as you would expect). There is one immutable fact in this case, their clients DNA, a 100% match, is on the knife sheath found at the crime scene. Not even MOO - it is a fact. No amount of smoke and mirrors will change that fact.

Exactly! And coupled with BT's vehicle captured on video at/near the crime scene in the early morning hour, and the ID of one of the victims allegedly found inside his vehicle, he's done.

 

[LaborDayRN]

BK's defense is stirring things up (as you would expect). There is one immutable fact in this case, their clients DNA, a 100% match, is on the knife sheath found at the crime scene. Not even MOO - it is a fact. No amount of smoke and mirrors will change that fact.

I agree. His DNA on the sheath! That can't be expained away IMO.
And I'll add that while BK may have a myriad of mental illnesses that does not equate to him being criminally insane in the eyes of the law.

 

[Sleuth2010]

Yes! And I have suspicions that he didn't plan for this to be a one-off event. I think he wanted to make murder a part-time vocation, IMHO. If this was his first time, it didn't go as smoothly as expected. His initial reaction afterward might have been to get rid of all of his killing tools and never do it again. But had he not been caught, I'm guessing that the itch to murder would have bubbled up again and he would have learned from the mistakes he made at King Rd. I hope they got the right suspect, because this is the work of a budding serial killer, IMO.

They have the right suspect / killer. The good Chief Fry and his team have adamantly stated so. They have their killer.
If I were this vile soul's attorney I would be creeped out. Job or no job, pass on this killer.
Maybe they will plea out to life imprisonment, for admitting guilt. But do cowards like this ever acknowledge truth ? IMO doubt so. Thanksgiving to all those who sought justice!
MOO, IMO, JMO, LMNOP.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I agree. His DNA on the sheath! That can't be expained away IMO.
And I'll add that while BK may have a myriad of mental illnesses that does not equate to him being criminally insane in the eyes of the law.

I'm always baffled by the concept of criminally insane even though I fully understand about the being considered not culpable for one's behaviour on the grounds of psychiatric disorder.

My main sticking point is that only someone profoundly 'not sane' would do this. Whereas mercenary killings or hit men are doing a cold blooded heartless job for a reason, this sort of act seems so beyond the pale that how could anyone really argue the killer was of sound mind? Not speaking specific to BK here, speaking in general terms.

 

[Odeto BJ]

One cannot fault the D attorneys for anything thus far: its their job, they gained the experience, they pursued the qualification, they need to apply it all "to the best of their ability..." Even when it feels like they are quibbling.

A topic that may or may not be exposed during trial: IIRC there was a group of ID cards on the list of seizures from one of the PA warrants. Presumably they are not from the Idaho victims...I'm pretty certain that MSM would have bled local PA sources for those identities and thus far they have not been exposed.

But if those ID cards were mine I would certainly want to know that BK had them even if he is not convicted. In fact, especially if he's not convicted. Presumably LE will inform those parties should BK not end up at the very least, confined indefinitely.

And: IMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

One cannot fault the D attorneys for anything thus far: its their job, they gained the experience, they pursued the qualification, they need to apply it all "to the best of their ability..." Even when it feels like they are quibbling.

A topic that may or may not be exposed during trial: IIRC there was a group of ID cards on the list of seizures from one of the PA warrants. Presumably they are not from the Idaho victims...I'm pretty certain that MSM would have bled local PA sources for those identities and thus far they have not been exposed.

But if those ID cards were mine I would certainly want to know that BK had them even if he is not convicted. In fact, especially if he's not convicted. Presumably LE will inform those parties should BK not end up at the very least, confined indefinitely.

And: IMO MOO

Assume they were his own ID cards as they were removed from glove compartment of his car IIRC - a car that he had cleaned out. Why would he retain other people's cards? JMO MOO

 

[ohiobuckeyegirl]

I think such a bad bite would have drawn some blood, though.

All it takes is breaking the skin for an infection. My bite was like the teeth scraped about an inch across but barely even bled. I was shocked how bad it ended up getting weeks later and itwas so painful.

I hadn't thought of a dog bite, @ohiobuckeyegirl.

Are you thinking the swelling could be from a dog bite by Murphy during the murders of Kaylee and Maddie 6 months before the photo was taken? That has been festering and is causing a blood infection that takes awhile to heal?

Oh my, I remember seeing a long reddish streak from what looked like a recent wound still healing on BK's right arm above the wrist, whne IN police pulled him over with his father, on the bodycam footage.

I had assumed it was a cut he could have gotten during stabbing them and some of them fighting back if they even could in their state of consciousness when he attacked them, and the knife glancing off him.

But now that you bring up the possibility of a dog bite, I.Just.Have.To.Think. about the possibility when he encountered Murphy in Kaylee's room or even in Maddie's room, and grabbed at him to lock him in Kaylee's room, he was bitten hard enough to puncture the skin.

Oh wow. When LE arrested him they had a 3rd warrant "for his person" according to the PA assistant DA who spoke at the press conference, who said it was for taking photographs of his person and taking samples from him, that sort of thing.

I wonder if LE documented he had a recent dog bite on his right wrist that was still healing. Regardless of Murphy being okay, and LE saying he didn't appear to have been harmed.

Doesn't mean he didn't get in a good bite and puncture wound, and doesn't eliminate the possibility BK went to see the doctor "for a routine checkup" a few days after their murders, and asked the doctor to attend to a wound that was bothering him after the routine stuff was over. He charmed the doc after all, from what I heard.

MOO

Yes, I'm wondering if that's a possibility. I wouldn't have thought that if I hadn't been bitten myself and knew how it got infected and took so long to heal. It may be far-fetched, but I guess anything is a possibility at this point.

 

[MyBelle]

I'm always baffled by the concept of criminally insane even though I fully understand about the being considered not culpable for one's behaviour on the grounds of psychiatric disorder.

My main sticking point is that only someone profoundly 'not sane' would do this. Whereas mercenary killings or hit men are doing a cold blooded heartless job for a reason, this sort of act seems so beyond the pale that how could anyone really argue the killer was of sound mind? Not speaking specific to BK here, speaking in general terms.

This heinous crime was premediated and carried out ruthlessly to the point it took several weeks to apprehend the killer. I don't believe BK will meet the definition of being criminally insane at the time of the crime.

Those who do meet the expert diagnosis can NOT be sentenced to death but I doubt BK meets the definition.

JMO

 

[gremlin444]

If he disassociates, does he even remember that he did this? Is it like a bad dream? Or a lot of confusion trying to piece together what he supposedly did and why?

The kind of dissociation that is usually related to VSS is generally not to the level of a full on dissociative disorder. It's not like amnesia or the old stereotypical multiple personality disorder. It's feeling disconnected from reality. There is an absence of flattening of emotions, a lack of thinking or caring about other people even in terms of how they related to you. It's feeling like you are navigating yourself like a character in a first person POV video game.

From my knowledge and family experience, most memory issues that are associated with DP/DR tend to be more around 1) everyday activities ("everything is always the same, I can't really attach any emotions to anything going on, which makes it harder to remember anything in a sea of grey blah)", 2) problems memorizing new information, or 3) remembering very specific details from heightened situations. This is all in general, mind you.