4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

[Twistinginthewind]

This was from his first hearing. I noticed it as well and it was suggested at the time it might have been from handcuff chaffing? IDK His hand looks puffy to me.

MOO

His hand looked puffy to me as well, @girlhasnoname

Forward of the bandage, towards his fingers.

We posted about this before after looking at the photo of him with the bigger than normal bandage on the top of his hand peeking out from under the cuff of his suit came out after the hearing, about a month or more ago, IIRC.

It could be from handcuffs pressing down and a swelling of tissue in response, but I think that type of contusion or bruising would be at the bony part of the wrist where there isn't much tissue, not on the top of his hand where it meets his wrist.

JMO.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

I wonder if this is from a dog bite. When I had two female dogs, they were both alpha's and always fighting. My last straw was when they got in a huge fight and I got bit on the hand. It later got infected and was puffy, just like that. It took MANY weeks to finally heal. I had to soak it and get antibiotics. Generally, dog bites are reported to the authorities. If a dog bite was the case, he would not have gone to the Dr or ER, because how is he going to explain if their dog bit him?

I hadn't thought of a dog bite, @ohiobuckeyegirl.

Are you thinking the swelling could be from a dog bite by Murphy during the murders of Kaylee and Maddie 6 months before the photo was taken? That has been festering and is causing a blood infection that takes awhile to heal?

Oh my, I remember seeing a long reddish streak from what looked like a recent wound still healing on BK's right arm above the wrist, whne IN police pulled him over with his father, on the bodycam footage.

I had assumed it was a cut he could have gotten during stabbing them and some of them fighting back if they even could in their state of consciousness when he attacked them, and the knife glancing off him.

But now that you bring up the possibility of a dog bite, I.Just.Have.To.Think. about the possibility when he encountered Murphy in Kaylee's room or even in Maddie's room, and grabbed at him to lock him in Kaylee's room, he was bitten hard enough to puncture the skin.

Oh wow. When LE arrested him they had a 3rd warrant "for his person" according to the PA assistant DA who spoke at the press conference, who said it was for taking photographs of his person and taking samples from him, that sort of thing.

I wonder if LE documented he had a recent dog bite on his right wrist that was still healing. Regardless of Murphy being okay, and LE saying he didn't appear to have been harmed.

Doesn't mean he didn't get in a good bite and puncture wound, and doesn't eliminate the possibility BK went to see the doctor "for a routine checkup" a few days after their murders, and asked the doctor to attend to a wound that was bothering him after the routine stuff was over. He charmed the doc after all, from what I heard.

MOO

 

[Nova]

I'm really interested in psychology and always enjoy @10ofRods work.
I do share your feelings on this, however.
i don't care about him.
In the way he didn't care about who he allegedly slaughtered with so much viciousness.
I'm normally an absolute bandage for people with problems but not this boy.
In fact I'm struggling not to wish nastiness upon him, because that will degenerate my own psyche. no other reason.
I'm cold as hell on this one.
But I've been like this before and subsequently ended up feeling huge drowning waves of compassion..

I can almost have a nervous breakdown over a smudge on my glasses! So anybody with VSS (a new concept to me) gets a measure of sympathy from me for that.

But I don't see how VSS is an excuse for murder. I just can't make that link! (And, of course, @10inRods doesn't offer it as a justification, but merely one element in trying to understand BK!)

 

[Sundog]

Does Kohberger's VSS play a role here? There are concerning symptoms of that neurological disorder that make me think that's possible.

IMO.

<snipped for focus>

If there is a trial, and if BK is found guilty of murder by the jury and then the sentencing hearing takes place, I can't help but wonder if VSS will come up as a mitigating factor and be given such weight by the jury that it takes precedence over the charge of aggravating circumstances which are required for the death penalty. If it is true that BK suffered from VSS for many years, then I would imagine it would come up at the sentencing hearing (if BK is found guilty after a trial, of course).

 

[Seattle1]

<snipped for focus>

If there is a trial, and if BK is found guilty by the jury of murder and then the sentencing hearing takes place, I can't help but wonder if VSS will come up as a mitigating factor and be given such weight by the jury that it takes precedence over the charge of aggravating circumstancEs which are required for the death penalty. If it is true that BK suffered from VSS for many years, then I would imagine it would come up at the sentencing hearing (if BK is found guilty after a trial, of course).

I have a very hard time associating VSS as a mitigating factor for quadruple homicide.

First, Visual Snow Syndrome (VSS) is not associated with the anterior cingulate cortex and the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex – both also located in the frontal lobe.

Instead, studies have shown that people with this syndrome have a brain abnormality in their lingual gyrus. This is a structure in the occipital lobe, which is located in the back of the brain.

There are no tests for visual snow syndrome. It is diagnosed based on symptom history and ruling out other causes. It is generally treated with tinted glasses, adaptive strategies, and sometimes medication. Research has found the anti-seizure medication Lamictal was most effective in treating visual snow.

As a migraine sufferer since childhood (also rare) including migraine aura symptoms and floaters, I too have found relief in the form of migraine management requiring low-dosage anti-seizure medication, daily.

From personal experience, I can say if I was one of his jurors and VSS was introduced as a mitigating factor, he would get no sympathy from me. JMO

I Have Migraines and See Lots of Tiny Dots Like Snow

Visual snow syndrome is a rare condition that is linked to, but different from, migraines. Learn about the symptoms, causes, diagnosis, and treatments.

www.verywellhealth.com

 

[al66pine]

Former Classmates Speak to Media, Dec. 2022. Armchair Psychologists?

Interesting - these individuals (& others) spoke so soon.

High School Classmate Sara
“It was bad, ... There was definitely something off about him, like we couldn’t tell exactly what it was. I remember one time when I was walking in the hallway, and he stopped me and was like, ‘Do you want to hang out?’”
"She added: “But Bryan was bullied a lot, and I never got a chance to say something to defend him, because he would always run away.”
".... She added that Mr Kohberger was often rejected and bullied by females, leading her to believe it was that internal frustration which ultimately led to his alleged involvement in the Moscow attack."

High School Friend Nick
".... said that the accused murderer became a “bully” during his senior year as a way to deal with his own insecurities.
“He always wanted to fight somebody, he was bullying people. We started cutting him off from our friend group because he was 100 percent a different person,...”

Seems they had definitive ideas about the basis for BK's actions then & now. jmo

______________________________
* Dec. 31, 2022 Bryan Kohberger’s classmates say murder suspect was ‘bright,’ ‘socially awkward’

 

[Boxer]

I have a very hard time associating VSS as a mitigating factor for quadruple homicide.

First, Visual Snow Syndrome (VSS) is not associated with the anterior cingulate cortex and the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex – both also located in the frontal lobe.

Instead, studies have shown that people with this syndrome have a brain abnormality in their lingual gyrus. This is a structure in the occipital lobe, which is located in the back of the brain.

There are no tests for visual snow syndrome. It is diagnosed based on symptom history and ruling out other causes. It is generally treated with tinted glasses, adaptive strategies, and sometimes medication. Research has found the anti-seizure medication Lamictal was most effective in treating visual snow.

As a migraine sufferer since childhood (also rare) including migraine aura symptoms and floaters, I too have found relief in the form of migraine management requiring low-dosage anti-seizure medication, daily.

From personal experience, I can say if I was one of his jurors and VSS was introduced as a mitigating factor, he would get no sympathy from me. JMO

I Have Migraines and See Lots of Tiny Dots Like Snow

Visual snow syndrome is a rare condition that is linked to, but different from, migraines. Learn about the symptoms, causes, diagnosis, and treatments.

www.verywellhealth.com

Many people struggle with grievous disabilities, with far less family support or opportunity.

 

[al66pine]

Possible Mitigating Factor. Mold in House?

.... I can't help but wonder if VSS will come up as a mitigating factor.... at the sentencing hearing ....

snipped for focus @Sundog
Not trying to be a smart aleck, but your post about poss. mitigating factor prompted me to think about this. BTW but I did not search to see if a def't. has tried it.

"A person who knew Kohberger at the time of the posts told ABC News he had seen the posts and was "extremely confident" they were Kohberger's, citing Kohberger's complaints at the time about his issues with visual snow syndrome as well as a reference in the posts to living in a house with mold problems."*
__________________________
* ETA: link to Dec. 31, 2022 story.

Idaho murders suspect wrote about 'delusions of grandeur' in online forum

University of Idaho quadruple murder suspect Bryan Kohberger posted in an online forum years ago that he had "crazy thoughts."

abc7news.com

 

[Helechawagirl]

Agree. I believe that the grip used with this knife (regardless of who did it) was not the one shown in Psycho, but the one shown in training videos for this very knife (of which there are many on youtube).

The weapon is designed for careful placement, rapid death, and silence. If this killing had been frenzied, there'd have been more bloody footprints. The killer planned to kill people who were lying down (and with himself positioned in a manner so as to avoid as much arterial blood spurt as possible - which was also aided by some of the victims still being in bed or under covers).

I can easily imagine a killer who had taken criminal forensics (even at the basic level) to use a method in which the initial wound (designed to silence but lethal in and of itself) was placed in one manner, and then the body pushed into a position where it would not bleed out on the perp. Sure, the murderer got victim blood on himself, but didn't cut himself and leave a trail of blood nor even leave blood glove prints or foot prints everywhere. Just a few footprints that we know of.

IMO.


It's also a place where frustration biters bite themselves.

I now feel officially weird for having known this and for having actually seen it (in mental hospitals). I'm sure it must happen in jails as well. NIMH calls it "anger biting," I think.

Anger biting. The hidden impulse - PubMed

Based upon the paralogical reasoning of the anger-impulsive biter, this paper addresses the overload of emotional catharsis which can block a full memory of the biting event and suspend the logical infrastructure of rational behavior. In an effort to overcome these types of investigative...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Biting behaviors aren't well-studied (people self-bite; other-bite and it often starts in childhood).

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1901/jaba.1997.30-697

One of the treatments for it is to advise the biter to "self-talk" and calm themselves down. There are ton of experiments on non-human primates (and on some rodents). Turns out being locked up in a small cage with little to do increases the amount of self-biting in those species.

Hmmm. Apparently seen in adolescent in-patient wards as well. In the animal studies, they were able to take samples of spinal and brain fluid (too invasive for humans) and found that the biting did reset and improve the dopamine processes (calming processes) in the brain.

IMO. Though there are links above, I'm obviously speculating.

Fascinating. A form of self-soothing I guess. If I were confined in jail/prison I’d be insane in 6 months due to the lack of intellectual stimulation and just being confined. JMO

 

[Helechawagirl]

If he disassociates, does he even remember that he did this? Is it like a bad dream? Or a lot of confusion trying to piece together what he supposedly did and why?

In my attempts to understand the “why” of this case, I read a lot of his (I believe) posts about his struggles with VSS and his attempts to heal himself. I also read that he was bullied, and later became the bully; he credited a vegan diet with being the most helpful thing to combat VSS. BK was also overweight, so, he became vegan, took up boxing, lost the excess weight, got addicted to drugs and beat that as well. Friends and acquaintances say that his personality changed. I wonder if he suffered a brain injury while boxing and that’s what led to this violence? Something certainly triggered him. JMO

 

[maconrich]

If he disassociates, does he even remember that he did this? Is it like a bad dream? Or a lot of confusion trying to piece together what he supposedly did and why?

Without adding VS / VS symptoms into the mix - or the impact VS could have on a young person: which seems like it could IMO serve as almost a constant (source of) trauma... IME some things are remembered so clearly they're etched into the memory forever, but other things might as well have never happened - they're not recognized at all, or not recognized as being real. It is possible to have no memory of them. Just in my experience and from readings and such. I'm not a mental health professional and not attempting to diagnose anyone - so literally based on personal experiences.

Easy to understand, short article that works as a summary of sorts:

Dissociation

Dissociating is the experience of detaching from reality. Dissociation encompasses the feeling of daydreaming or being intensely focused, as well as the distressing experience of being disconnected from reality. In this state, consciousness, identity, memory, and perception are no longer...

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[katydid23]

I don't think I'm being clear. I'm saying they had his name before they changed the date on the Elantra. They said 2011 - 2013 Elantra. Then WSU turns over BK's name. Then they say the Elantra could be a 2011 - 2016.

I'd also be curious about when the supposed Sentra gaffe happened.

I don't think it matters, if it happened that way or not. Investigations take twists and turns. Sometime you have to pivot, with new information.

Do Doctors ever make an initial diagnosis, based upon what they had seen ----but then pivot and change it, after being given a tip, about another illness making the rounds, having similar symptoms, but with a different diagnosis from the first?

Investigators have to change their minds frequently, as new data emerges. When given a tip about a male criminology student in a neighbouring town, it seemed promising. They may have looked at the video, and had to decide if it could have been a later model than 2013. They look very similar, so why not?

Why would they cross a promising lead off the board, just because they had originally looked for 2011 to 2013 models? Those kinds of things are fluid. Things change quickly during an active investigation. There is nothing inherently nefarious about that.

 

[schooling]

I don't think it matters, if it happened that way or not. Investigations take twists and turns. Sometime you have to pivot, with new information.

Do Doctors ever make an initial diagnosis, based upon what they had seen ----but then pivot and change it, after being given a tip, about another illness making the rounds, having similar symptoms, but with a different diagnosis from the first?

Investigators have to change their minds frequently, as new data emerges. When given a tip about a male criminology student in a neighbouring town, it seemed promising. They may have looked at the video, and had to decide if it could have been a later model than 2013. They look very similar, so why not?

Why would they cross a promising lead off the board, just because they had originally looked for 2011 to 2013 models? Those kinds of things are fluid. Things change quickly during an active investigation. There is nothing inherently nefarious about that.

Exactly this.

I think the key to ending all this Elantra nonsense is in the video of BK doing a 3 point turn and the video of the next day at the grocery store. Both connected to the cellular data and both will display clear visual queues.

Also, going down one investigative path, hitting a dead end or finding a more viable investigative path is not a “gaffe”. It’s systematic. And inherent to the law enforcement field.

 

[Chloegirl]

In my attempts to understand the “why” of this case, I read a lot of his (I believe) posts about his struggles with VSS and his attempts to heal himself. I also read that he was bullied, and later became the bully; he credited a vegan diet with being the most helpful thing to combat VSS. BK was also overweight, so, he became vegan, took up boxing, lost the excess weight, got addicted to drugs and beat that as well. Friends and acquaintances say that his personality changed. I wonder if he suffered a brain injury while boxing and that’s what led to this violence? Something certainly triggered him. JMO

I hadn't thought of that. I was sort of hyper focused on the fact that you can get brain damage from using heroin. Once again, this arrives at the point for me where I'm like It just fits that it is him. Obviously he's had a difficulty bringing himself to this point and he's tried very hard (I think?) to fight some of this. Boxing certainly makes people more aggressive, as do TBIs and I don't see any evidence of softening behaviors, such as relationships, having children, or say the more Buddhist aspects of veganism. Maybe the discipline became so structured and rigid that it leaned him towards maybe judgment, being harsh as others were to him, very black and white thinking? IDK, just speculating on the ideals boxing reinforces or even a lot of structure on someone. JMOO

 

[jepop]

Exactly this.

I think the key to ending all this Elantra nonsense is in the video of BK doing a 3 point turn and the video of the next day at the grocery store. Both connected to the cellular data and both will display clear visual queues.

Also, going down one investigative path, hitting a dead end or finding a more viable investigative path is not a “gaffe”. It’s systematic. And inherent to the law enforcement field.

I agree the prosecution will be able to show BaRD that SV1 is Bk's elantra but do have to point out that the three point turn, at around 4.04am intersection of Queen and King on 13 Nov, isn't connected to cellular data that we now of at this point. Three pointer ocurred during the two hour time span when his phone was disconnected from the network and BK's number did not show on geo fence warrants. There may be another cellular connection we are not aware of if his phone was only in airplane mode. Regardless however, I believe that LE have done their due diligence and eliminated other possible owners/drivers of white elantras during the relevant time frame and in the relevant neighbourhood and will demonstrate that SV1 can reasonably be surmised as the defendant's vehicle.Moo

ETA: Agree that initially looking out for Sentras (as per MSM) is not well represented as a Gaffe! As you and others point out, investigations are fluid and change direction over time as new info/footage becomes availabe and new analyses take place. Moo

 

[kittythehare]

I agree the prosecution will be able to show BaRD that SV1 is Bk's elantra but do have to point out that the three point turn, at around 4.04am intersection of Queen and King on 13 Nov, isn't connected to cellular data that we now of at this point. Three pointer ocurred during the two hour time span when his phone was disconnected from the network and BK's number did not show on geo fence warrants. There may be another cellular connection we are not aware of if his phone was only in airplane mode. Regardless however, I believe that LE have done their due diligence and eliminated other possible owners/drivers of white elantras during the relevant time frame and in the relevant neighbourhood and will demonstrate that SV1 can reasonably be surmised as the defendant's vehicle.Moo

could be a witness statement, too.
I have a feeling a lot of it is.

 

[jepop]

Good point about ‘if one ever existed.’ I know there was a news report that mentioned a Sentra, but did we ever see it in a LE report?

I'm not aware of it being in any LE report that we've had access too. The Defense hasn't mentioned a sentra so far in the Motions. But I suppose that's not really saying much as we haven't seen all the details of exhibits attached to motions- though in general it seems the D has not highlighted any early investigations of sentras but is more interested in Elantra reports. Moo

I'm curious as to who leaked the info if true but besides that don't think it's a bigdeal at all. LE just doing their job thoroughly and competently Imo.

 

[Sundog]

I have a very hard time associating VSS as a mitigating factor for quadruple homicide.

First, Visual Snow Syndrome (VSS) is not associated with the anterior cingulate cortex and the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex – both also located in the frontal lobe.

Instead, studies have shown that people with this syndrome have a brain abnormality in their lingual gyrus. This is a structure in the occipital lobe, which is located in the back of the brain.

There are no tests for visual snow syndrome. It is diagnosed based on symptom history and ruling out other causes. It is generally treated with tinted glasses, adaptive strategies, and sometimes medication. Research has found the anti-seizure medication Lamictal was most effective in treating visual snow.

As a migraine sufferer since childhood (also rare) including migraine aura symptoms and floaters, I too have found relief in the form of migraine management requiring low-dosage anti-seizure medication, daily.

From personal experience, I can say if I was one of his jurors and VSS was introduced as a mitigating factor, he would get no sympathy from me. JMO

I Have Migraines and See Lots of Tiny Dots Like Snow

Visual snow syndrome is a rare condition that is linked to, but different from, migraines. Learn about the symptoms, causes, diagnosis, and treatments.

www.verywellhealth.com

If mental health issues are introduced at a sentencing hearing for BK (if convicted and if the sentencing jury decides there are aggravating circumstances that warrant a possible death sentence), then I think the issue would be the effects of the disease on BK and his life life. The defense doesn't have to prove that the disease itself caused the murder.

A mitigating factor does not have to constitute a defense or excuse or justification for the crime, nor does it even have to reduce the degree of the defendant’s blame for the crime.

In that regard, my instructions given at the end of the trial that you were not to allow sympathy for the defendant to enter your deliberations do not apply at this sentencing proceeding. Mitigating factors may include any fact or circumstance that inspires sympathy, compassion or mercy for the defendant.

Idaho Criminal Code, Jury Instructions in Death Eligible Case (ICJI 1717 Mitigation)

Criminal Jury Instructions | Supreme Court

isc.idaho.gov

If BK's social media postings of the impact if this disease on him at age 15 was read to the jury, it is possible that at least one juror would have sympathy for BK on this mitigating factor. Other mitigating factors would also likely be introduced in order to inspire compassion or sympathy among one or more members of the jury. Just as the prosecution has included aggravating circumstances to the murder charges which make BK eligible for the death penalty sentence, so do the mitigating facotrs produced by the defendant and/or defense provide the jury with the option to weigh the mitigating factors against the aggravating factors and decide if BK will be sentenced to death or LWOP.

Also, I am sure that if the defense plans to use this disease as a possible mitigation factor at a future sentencing hearing if BK is convicted, then they would no doubt eliminate a juror who has suffered from this disease themselves.

I would think that the defense is thinking ahead to a possible sentence hearing and what mitigating factors they would present if BK is convicted of murder with aggravating circumstances, and that this will have an impact on jury selection. This, along with other issues related to the trial itself.

 

[maskedwoman]

In my attempts to understand the “why” of this case, I read a lot of his (I believe) posts about his struggles with VSS and his attempts to heal himself. I also read that he was bullied, and later became the bully; he credited a vegan diet with being the most helpful thing to combat VSS. BK was also overweight, so, he became vegan, took up boxing, lost the excess weight, got addicted to drugs and beat that as well. Friends and acquaintances say that his personality changed. I wonder if he suffered a brain injury while boxing and that’s what led to this violence? Something certainly triggered him. JMO

Sometimes people blame all their problems on something, like being overweight. Nobody will be my friend, I get bullied, I can't keep a job, etc. And it's all (in their minds) because they are heavy. Then, they conquer that issue and find out, to their dismay, their other problems didn't go away. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it does happen. He apparently overcame VSS, he lost the weight, he got his Masters, and STILL can't get a girl. Nothing would justify what happened, obviously, but I could see how that might cause someone to decide to take drastic action. MOOooo

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

It appears to me that the defense is, on one hand, suspicious that LE & prosecution focused too quickly on BK (as evidenced by their questioning of the timing of tying the identity of the car to BK). While, on the other hand, being critical about the elimination processes involved in an effective investigation (as though they took too long identifying the correct make, model, year).​

​

Seems hypocritical to me, to suggest that the investigation cast too broad a net while at the same time suggesting that it was hyperfocused on one sole suspect.​

​

Edited 'cause I forgot MOO again. ​