4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

[kittythehare]

He did--I just reread them. He had seen an optometrist, an ophthalmologist, a neurologist, a therapist, and a regular doctor (who also diagnosed him with hypothyroidism in addition to migraines). At one point he mentioned an neuroophthalmologist, but I can't tell if that was followed up on.

Hi Gremlin.
Did you happen to cross reference his symptoms with his timeline for commencing heroin use at all.
I'm wondering whether and how his heroin use affected his VSS symptoms and whether they worsened?

 

[ohiobuckeyegirl]

This was from his first hearing. I noticed it as well and it was suggested at the time it might have been from handcuff chaffing? IDK His hand looks puffy to me.

MOO

I wonder if this is from a dog bite. When I had two female dogs, they were both alpha's and always fighting. My last straw was when they got in a huge fight and I got bit on the hand. It later got infected and was puffy, just like that. It took MANY weeks to finally heal. I had to soak it and get antibiotics. Generally, dog bites are reported to the authorities. If a dog bite was the case, he would not have gone to the Dr or ER, because how is he going to explain if their dog bit him?

 

[Chloegirl]

I wonder if this is from a dog bite. When I had two female dogs, they were both alpha's and always fighting. My last straw was when they got in a huge fight and I got bit on the hand. It later got infected and was puffy, just like that. It took MANY weeks to finally heal. I had to soak it and get antibiotics. Generally, dog bites are reported to the authorities. If a dog bite was the case, he would not have gone to the Dr or ER, because how is he going to explain if their dog bit him?

Murphy? 7 months back? Whoa. Is that remotely possible?? Is there a doctor in the house?

 

[Charlot123]

I'm really interested in psychology and always enjoy @10ofRods work.
I do share your feelings on this, however.
i don't care about him.
In the way he didn't care about who he allegedly slaughtered with so much viciousness.
I'm normally an absolute bandage for people with problems but not this boy.
In fact I'm struggling not to wish nastiness upon him, because that will degenerate my own psyche. no other reason.
I'm cold as hell on this one.
But I've been like this before and subsequently ended up feeling huge drowning waves of compassion..

Much as when I saw his photo for the first time, I said to myself, it fits, it is a subjective opinion. There is presumption of innocence. BK is poor, but has a seasoned a public defender; it falls on her to see that there is proof beyond reasonable doubt. And do the job well. I have way less doubt in SM’s case, but since some technicalities were not observed, BM walks free now, this is the law.( Good that we have the law in this country). Upset as I am, BM is innocent as of today. So is BK - so far.
I have some strange feeling about BK that I can’t put in words. He looks robotic, and it bothers me for some reason.

 

[schooling]

....

IMO. What caused him to snap is the unanswered question, although I think he crashed and burned major league big time after arriving in Pullman and being, well, ostracized and disciplined by people who were frightened, half-frightened or very annoyed by him.

....

I'm not a psychologist and not in an adjacent field. You can probably tell by some of my answers here

But I remember Austin Sigg, who murdered Jessica Ridgeway, spoke of a compulsion that came over him whenever he saw a woman walking alone. And that he had to constantly fight the compulsion to assault them. I don't remember what eventually made him snap and give in. But I remember him first attacking a woman and then after being emboldened by not being caught...attacked and killed the poor little girl.

I always thought that was interesting and super twisted.

 

[ohiobuckeyegirl]

Murphy? 7 months back? Whoa. Is that remotely possible?? Is there a doctor in the house?

I didn't remember that it had been 7 months after when I posted that. It feels like this all happened so long ago. It's possible, but I don't know how realistic it would be that he would let it go that long. I apologize for my brain being on vacation tonight lol

 

[Chloegirl]

I didn't remember that it had been 7 months after when I posted that. It feels like this all happened so long ago. It's possible, but I don't know how realistic it would be that he would let it go that long. I apologize for my brain being on vacation tonight lol

So we hope for dog justice, fatal sepsis from a untreated dog bite. Still interesting musing! JMOO.

 

[gremlin444]

It's just that no professionals or family members have confirmed any of that, or come out and said, oh yeah, it was bad and he was really struggling but nothing seemed to help. Poor Bryan, we've all been wringing our hands over what to do about Bryan, including the professionals. I'm thinking we would have heard more factual info about him and treatment and status if he had had something more common like depression or anxiety, maybe exacerbated by certain factors the VSS worsened, but we have not heard anything like that, IIRC.

What kind of professionals who had definitive proof of his diagnosis could speak to this and NOT be violating HIPPA? IMHO, no one. Given that his family has only had one public statement, as presented by BK's PA lawyer, I wouldn't expect them to then come out to discuss this.

You mention having read a portion of his TAT posts and broadly. Because my teenage son has VSS and has been dealing with it for 3 years, I read every one of his posts & replies on TAT very closely back when they were first discovered. I even read some of them to my son to get his opinion.

IMHO, given my son's direct experience and descriptions and information that we have been given from my son's therapists/psychiatrists/doctors/optometrists/neurologists/neuro ophthalmologists/vision tests/MRI results--what BK was describing in those posts rings completely true to me. Both the symptoms he was saying he was experiencing (some of which are ones that are commonly experienced with VSS but for some reason never mentioned much in the online lit) and his results with different medications are in line with that.

If a young BK was feeling a vague cluster of symptoms (not saying that these are ones he had but and example: like anxiety/depression/mild visual issues), an internet search for self diagnosis would lead him to many other things before he'd ever get to VSS--esp given how little info there was on the internet about that over 10 years ago. Heck, since that time the info on the web hasn't improved much--there's more of it but it's still mainly "well, we're not sure what causes it...and we know some things that don't help it and a few things that might help it a bit for _some_ people...but really, you just gotta get used to it."

Why does any of it matter, esp if as he reported in his most recent posts that he was coming to terms with it and getting used to it? For me, my interest focuses on VSS's usual accompanying issues with depersonalization and derealization and how that may or may not have played a role in his life and then the murders. Luckily my son was able to get a VSS diagnosis fairly quickly given more medical professionals having experience and knowledge of it (and the benefit of living near Chicago and many medical universities and hospitals). While they weren't able to do much to improve it, just having it confirmed and acknowledged makes it easier to deal with in some ways. But the DP/DR is soooo much harder to get help with. Just finding a therapist with experience and expertise in it is hard--usually they are going to be trauma therapists, but if you don't have a specific qualifying trauma, it's hard to get one of them to see you. My kid has gotten used to the VSS and it doesn't bother him as much, but he still struggles with DP/DR even after much therapy. And if BK's DP/DR continued to be as severe as he described at that time or only improved a small bit, then I feel like it gives me a bit of background to his interpersonal relationships and life in high school and after. It definitely, IMHO, gives me some insight into his heroin addiction as well.

Does it justify or excuse his actions and the fact that these 4 young people lost their lives and their families and communities are devastated? Absolutely not. Does it _explain_ it--not entirely. Does it give a bit of insight--IMHO, yes. Does this mean that most people with VSS and/or DP/DR will have the capacity to murder people--absolutely no. We'll never be able to point to one thing in BK's life and makeup that is the determining factor. Rather, it's many factors and their interplay.

Websleuthers have a variety of focuses and combinations thereof when they become interested in a crime--some are here with a focus on the legal system, some are here with a focus on justice, some are here with a focus on improving police procedures and detection, some are here focusing on prevention, some focus on criminal psychology. I've always been someone who is fascinated with psychology and sociology and what roles they do or do not play in crimes and criminals' live--it's definitely not my only reason for being here on WS, but it is one of top three or four focuses. And it has been since long before my son was diagnosed and experienced both VSS and mental health issues.

 

[Charlot123]

I wonder if this is from a dog bite. When I had two female dogs, they were both alpha's and always fighting. My last straw was when they got in a huge fight and I got bit on the hand. It later got infected and was puffy, just like that. It took MANY weeks to finally heal. I had to soak it and get antibiotics. Generally, dog bites are reported to the authorities. If a dog bite was the case, he would not have gone to the Dr or ER, because how is he going to explain if their dog bit him?

I think such a bad bite would have drawn some blood, though.

 

[maskedwoman]

@maskedwoman Here is a link to an article from the Idaho Statesmen:

<snipped.
Former friends of the Idaho university murder suspect Bryan Kohberger have spoken out about the accused killer’s struggle with heroin addiction.

In an interview with the Idaho Statesman, high school friends and acquaintances of Mr Kohberger addressed previous reports that he was bullied because of his weight.

Bryan Kohberger’s former friends tell how he became addicted to heroin

Thank you! That timeline makes a lot more sense.

 

[Charlot123]

I'm not a psychologist and not in an adjacent field. You can probably tell by some of my answers here

But I remember Austin Sigg, who murdered Jessica Ridgeway, spoke of a compulsion that came over him whenever he saw a woman walking alone. And that he had to constantly fight the compulsion to assault them. I don't remember what eventually made him snap and give in. But I remember him first attacking a woman and then after being emboldened by not being caught...attacked and killed the poor little girl.

I always thought that was interesting and super twisted.

It is so strange. I read about serial killers that the day before the episode, they feel compulsion and some kind of detachment, almost dissociative episode. Other behaviors might be precluded by it, too. Of course, one day we’ll know what and where these impulses arise, so sad we can’t do anything today.

 

[ohiobuckeyegirl]

I think such a bad bite would have drawn some blood, though.

All it takes is breaking the skin for an infection. My bite was like the teeth scraped about an inch across but barely even bled. I was shocked how bad it ended up getting weeks later and it was so painful.

 

[schooling]

Isn’t that a common location for an IV bag? To administer medicine and treat dehydration. This is not speculation on BK. Moreso the location of the bandaid.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

What kind of professionals who had definitive proof of his diagnosis could speak to this and NOT be violating HIPPA? IMHO, no one. Given that his family has only had one public statement, as presented by BK's PA lawyer, I wouldn't expect them to then come out to discuss this.

You mention having read a portion of his TAT posts and broadly. Because my teenage son has VSS and has been dealing with it for 3 years, I read every one of his posts & replies on TAT very closely back when they were first discovered. I even read some of them to my son to get his opinion.

IMHO, given my son's direct experience and descriptions and information that we have been given from my son's therapists/psychiatrists/doctors/optometrists/neurologists/neuro ophthalmologists/vision tests/MRI results--what BK was describing in those posts rings completely true to me. Both the symptoms he was saying he was experiencing (some of which are ones that are commonly experienced with VSS but for some reason never mentioned much in the online lit) and his results with different medications are in line with that.

If a young BK was feeling a vague cluster of symptoms (not saying that these are ones he had but and example: like anxiety/depression/mild visual issues), an internet search for self diagnosis would lead him to many other things before he'd ever get to VSS--esp given how little info there was on the internet about that over 10 years ago. Heck, since that time the info on the web hasn't improved much--there's more of it but it's still mainly "well, we're not sure what causes it...and we know some things that don't help it and a few things that might help it a bit for _some_ people...but really, you just gotta get used to it."

Why does any of it matter, esp if as he reported in his most recent posts that he was coming to terms with it and getting used to it? For me, my interest focuses on VSS's usual accompanying issues with depersonalization and derealization and how that may or may not have played a role in his life and then the murders. Luckily my son was able to get a VSS diagnosis fairly quickly given more medical professionals having experience and knowledge of it (and the benefit of living near Chicago and many medical universities and hospitals). While they weren't able to do much to improve it, just having it confirmed and acknowledged makes it easier to deal with in some ways. But the DP/DR is soooo much harder to get help with. Just finding a therapist with experience and expertise in it is hard--usually they are going to be trauma therapists, but if you don't have a specific qualifying trauma, it's hard to get one of them to see you. My kid has gotten used to the VSS and it doesn't bother him as much, but he still struggles with DP/DR even after much therapy. And if his DP/DR continued to be as severe as he described at that time or only improved a small bit, then I feel like it gives me a bit of background to his interpersonal relationships and life in high school and after. It definitely, IMHO, gives me some insight into his heroin addiction as well.

Does it justify or excuse his actions and the fact that these 4 young people lost their lives and their families and communities are devastated? Absolutely not. Does it _explain_ it--not entirely. Does it give a bit of insight--IMHO, yes. Does this mean that most people with VSS and/or DP/DR will have the capacity to murder people--absolutely no. We'll never be able to point to one thing in BK's life and makeup that is the determining factor. Rather, it's many factors and their interplay.

Websleuthers have a variety of focuses and combinations thereof when they become interested in a crime--some are here with a focus on the legal system, some are here with a focus on justice, some are here with a focus on improving police procedures and detection, some are here focusing on prevention, some focus on criminal psychology. I've always been someone who is fascinated with psychology and sociology and what roles they do or do not play in crimes and criminals' live--it's definitely not my only reason for being here on WS, but it is one of top three or four focuses. And it has been since long before my son was diagnosed and experienced both VSS and mental health issues.

Thanks, @gremlin444, I truly appreciate your perspective and it helps to be reminded of what it has been like for your son to have VSS and your family and professionals to convocate and collaborate on best ways to treat, support, and assist him.

I do remember you and @10ofRods posting about VSS before, and you about your son when the topic of VSS came up before (maybe as long as 5 or 6 months back).

I guess as much empathy as I have for anyone suffering from any syndrome or affliction or disease of any sort, I simply can not feel much sympathy for BK.

I don't know why he did what he did, allegedly, and I guess I'm saying at this point I'm beyond caring. I'm not so sure the victim's loved ones nor the State care either.

Crime of The Century Indeed.

I can't think of anything more heinous and grievously depraved to do to 4 youngsters in cold blood, if he did it, and if he didn't, who the heck could have with no whisper of possible SODDIs/TODDIs or accomplices over 7 months later?

Of course I realize it's probably multi-factorial, like most things. Possible VSS being one potential factor, though it has yet to be confirmed. I understand about patient-doctor confidentiality, of course, but usually at this point in a case like this, if there's been one like it in recent memory, something about a diagnosis with implications like VSS would have been spoken of by someone other than maybe someone who may have been him 12 or so years ago. Online.

There's just a stubborn little part of me deep inside that will not give an inch in empathy for him if he is the killer.

That is all he is to me at this point.

MOO.

 

[gremlin444]

Hi Gremlin.
Did you happen to cross reference his symptoms with his timeline for commencing heroin use at all.
I'm wondering whether and how his heroin use affected his VSS symptoms and whether they worsened?

I haven't because I've been swamped lately.

However I do know this much:

BK's bday: Nov 21, 1994
BK's first post on VSS forum on TAT: Nov 1, 2009 and he states that his 15th birthday is coming up soon
BK's last post/reply on VSS forum: Feb 20, 2012

In his very very early posts he made a point of saying he had not been on other medications or taken illegal drugs. I notice after mentioning that a few times, he eventually stops saying that even in discussions where it would be relevant. Though, honestly, it would be hard to tell at what point he started taking heroin during that time period because given that he seemed in his posts to really care what the other members of that forum thought of him (they pretty much were young adults or adults), I don't think he'd willingly admit any current drug use to them.

 

[acutename]

We could posit that Kohberger's brain is one that has a kind of switch in it (this is a major theory on how people can go into the states needed to, say, knife four strangers to death). It does not make sense to the rest of us, of course, and is considered a symptom or abnormal quality (because the brain's owner doesn't have adequate control over the brain state).

The right pre-frontal cortex may actually act as a "kill switch" for most anti-social/violent behavior. It is programmed to do this throughout childhood, but some people have defects in that region (either inherited or otherwise biologically determined OR perhaps acquired - there's research to suggest that it can be acquired). Does Kohberger's VSS play a role here? There are concerning symptoms of that neurological disorder that make me think that's possible.

IMO.

If he disassociates, does he even remember that he did this? Is it like a bad dream? Or a lot of confusion trying to piece together what he supposedly did and why?

 

[gremlin444]

I don't know why he did what he did, allegedly, and I guess I'm saying at this point I'm beyond caring. I'm not so sure the victim's loved ones nor the State care either.

I totally get not caring. I do. I can't say that I necessarily have any sympathy for BK as the person he is now. But I do read those old posts and feel much sympathy for the young teenager he was then who was trying, it seemed, very hard to understand what was going on in his head and body and try to fix it. And I'm definitely very curious what other factors combined with this and what changed.

For me, my interest in these past life experiences/issues is similar in some ways to looking at Richard Ramirez. You look at his very young life and see multiple head injuries before he was 6. You see his close relationship with his cousin who regularly showed a young Richard photos of women who he had raped and murdered while fighting in the Vietnam War. You see this same cousin killing his wife by shooting her in the head in front of a 13 yo Richard. Does any of that make me feel sorry for adult Richard? Heck no. Does it justify or excuse his behavior or make him not guilty by reason of insanity? Nope. But it gives me some factors that definitely had a role in forming the person he became.

Because I'll always be curious with crimes--at what point, if any, could this have been prevented? For some criminals, I think the answer is never. For some, I see possibilities but don't know how or what could be done. For others I have some things I think could have helped.

I understand about patient-doctor confidentiality, of course, but usually at this point in a case like this, if there's been one like it in recent memory, something about a diagnosis with implications like VSS would have been spoken of by someone other than maybe someone who may have been him 12 or so years ago. Online.

I suspect the reason for that is multi-fold: 1) many people still have never heard of VSS and because of that it can be hard for people to get a proper diagnosis instead of "it's all in your head" or "it's atypical migraines," 2) it took a while for DP/DR stemming from VSS to even be recognized, 3) for a long time, most visual snow was attributed to drug use, which is a separate syndrome (HPPD). Many medical or mental health professionals have little knowledge or experience with DP, DR, or VSS so while they might not make the connection between those & BK to a former client of theirs who committed murder.

And sure, while I'm 99.999999999% sure that my son will never end up like BK, I think in most parent's minds (esp when you have a kid with mental health issues) you always feel a tiny tiny smidgen of "there but for the grace of the gods I go."

 

[Charlot123]

Agree. I believe that the grip used with this knife (regardless of who did it) was not the one shown in Psycho, but the one shown in training videos for this very knife (of which there are many on youtube).

The weapon is designed for careful placement, rapid death, and silence. If this killing had been frenzied, there'd have been more bloody footprints. The killer planned to kill people who were lying down (and with himself positioned in a manner so as to avoid as much arterial blood spurt as possible - which was also aided by some of the victims still being in bed or under covers).

I can easily imagine a killer who had taken criminal forensics (even at the basic level) to use a method in which the initial wound (designed to silence but lethal in and of itself) was placed in one manner, and then the body pushed into a position where it would not bleed out on the perp. Sure, the murderer got victim blood on himself, but didn't cut himself and leave a trail of blood nor even leave blood glove prints or foot prints everywhere. Just a few footprints that we know of.

IMO.


It's also a place where frustration biters bite themselves.

I now feel officially weird for having known this and for having actually seen it (in mental hospitals). I'm sure it must happen in jails as well. NIMH calls it "anger biting," I think.

Anger biting. The hidden impulse - PubMed

Based upon the paralogical reasoning of the anger-impulsive biter, this paper addresses the overload of emotional catharsis which can block a full memory of the biting event and suspend the logical infrastructure of rational behavior. In an effort to overcome these types of investigative...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Biting behaviors aren't well-studied (people self-bite; other-bite and it often starts in childhood).

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1901/jaba.1997.30-697

One of the treatments for it is to advise the biter to "self-talk" and calm themselves down. There are ton of experiments on non-human primates (and on some rodents). Turns out being locked up in a small cage with little to do increases the amount of self-biting in those species.

Hmmm. Apparently seen in adolescent in-patient wards as well. In the animal studies, they were able to take samples of spinal and brain fluid (too invasive for humans) and found that the biting did reset and improve the dopamine processes (calming processes) in the brain.

IMO. Though there are links above, I'm obviously speculating.

BTW, anger biting might be a form of stimming. I found a good blog
about stimming and in the harmful stimming, self-biting is mentioned, too.

The Dark Side of the Stim: Self-injury and Destructive Habits

In my previous article, Stimming 101, I wrote about autistic stimming as a normal and healthy aspect of autistic identity. While this is most often the case, I want to follow up with a slightly dif…

kirstenlindsmith.com

The blog is helpful in many ways but what specifically drew my attention was how the author conquered nail-biting. She writes, "I started carrying a nail kit with me."

So each time she have the impulse to nail-bite, she would trim the nails instead. If not a kit, at least use a nail file.

And now I am thinking, what if BK was carrying the kbar knife as means of self-distraction from certain stimming? Of course, it is a very far reach. I understand it. I wonder if he used to carry something else, like an eraser, and then switched to the knife? (Slightly pricking the skin with the knife could also be the way to distract oneself from IV drug use, if there was an obsessive component to it.)

I would be so interested to find out if there was some idiosyncrasy linked to playing with a knife, or some other object, that people around him noticed? And now that he doesn't have that object with him, he is back to biting.

 

[I'm Nobody]

I'm really interested in psychology and always enjoy @10ofRods work.
I do share your feelings on this, however.
i don't care about him.
In the way he didn't care about who he allegedly slaughtered with so much viciousness.
I'm normally an absolute bandage for people with problems but not this boy.
In fact I'm struggling not to wish nastiness upon him, because that will degenerate my own psyche. no other reason.
I'm cold as hell on this one.
But I've been like this before and subsequently ended up feeling huge drowning waves of compassion..

Agree Kitty Bleeding heart here, but BK is way beyond my sympathy. Decades of study and research have provided killer-clues; elementary school teachers can point out "odd" kids who are struggling or may be headed in "wrong" direction. Don't know what the answer is but seems a combination of things makes killers, not mental health alone. IMO There's a lot more than OCD and VSS going on with BK and for a while.

Allegedly BK and his father silently responded to the mental health question during PA extradition hearing, "Kohberger answered “no” when the judge asked if he had any mental health issues that would impede his ability to waive his extradition, and Kohberger’s father, also in the courtroom, shook his head “no.”
CNN report PA extradition here.

BK's not a poor misunderstood soul who didn't know the murders were abhorrent. Substantial planning and premeditation were involved; he planned them, studied them, enjoyed every moment of them, replayed them in his head, sadly pleased himself to them. AND now he fantasizes about the trial, his great DNA clean-up, his smart lawyers. There is no going back to fix BK or remove pain he caused to families, friends, community. I don't feel sorry for him. My compassion goes to the victims.

This is where I live on BK's "mental health" issues: Damficare St.

Boca Grand FL street sign.
JMO

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Nissan Sentras vs Hyundai Elantras

A week after the killings, records show, investigators were on the lookout for a certain type of vehicle: Nissan Sentras from the model years 2019 to 2023. Quietly, they ran down details on thousands of such vehicles, including the owners’ addresses, license plate numbers and the color of each sedan.

But further scrutiny of the video footage produced more clarity,

and on Nov. 25 the police in Moscow asked law enforcement agencies to look for a different type of car with a similar shape: white Hyundai Elantras from the model years 2011 to 2013.

Inside the Hunt for the Idaho Killer (Published 2023)

After four students were stabbed to death in a house near a college campus, investigators scooped up data and forensic evidence, hoping for leads. A new DNA technique finally brought a breakthrough.

www.nytimes.com

Thanks, @Cool Cats, I remember that, amongst the fray, from the early days of the murders being investigated (first few weeks after) and after LE's collection and review of initial video footage from the neighbors, there was a "white sedan" amongst the vehicles spotted on video.

IIRC, it was difficult for LE to identify make and model (no less year) from what they initially had reviewed of video from ring cameras, of a moving white sedan in the dead of night appearing in and driving around their neighborhood around the window of time when they thought the murders may have occurred.

Then LE continued to canvass the neighborhood and spread out in concentric circles or whatever the forensic terminology is, and got the video the gas station attendant had looked at nearby (2 day's worth on their own time, IIRC).

Then they narrowed it down to possibly a white sedan that they thought was either a Nissan Sentra or a Hyundai Elantra.

Then they started looking at registered owners in the Moscow ID area, and moving out from there.

Then or earlier, the FBI came in to assist, and their expert (and a team of 16 agents reviewing just video footage gathered from around the area that night, that ended up being dozens of Terrabytes of video in the discovery).

Then (FBI) or before (MPD) early guesses about a Sentra or Elantra were narrowed down to an Elantra, then the possible years, then, well we've beaten that to death, IMO, so I'll shut up now.

MOO