4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

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Agree. I believe that the grip used with this knife (regardless of who did it) was not the one shown in Psycho, but the one shown in training videos for this very knife (of which there are many on youtube).

The weapon is designed for careful placement, rapid death, and silence. If this killing had been frenzied, there'd have been more bloody footprints. The killer planned to kill people who were lying down (and with himself positioned in a manner so as to avoid as much arterial blood spurt as possible - which was also aided by some of the victims still being in bed or under covers).

I can easily imagine a killer who had taken criminal forensics (even at the basic level) to use a method in which the initial wound (designed to silence but lethal in and of itself) was placed in one manner, and then the body pushed into a position where it would not bleed out on the perp. Sure, the murderer got victim blood on himself, but didn't cut himself and leave a trail of blood nor even leave blood glove prints or foot prints everywhere. Just a few footprints that we know of.

IMO.


It's also a place where frustration biters bite themselves.

I now feel officially weird for having known this and for having actually seen it (in mental hospitals). I'm sure it must happen in jails as well. NIMH calls it "anger biting," I think.


Biting behaviors aren't well-studied (people self-bite; other-bite and it often starts in childhood).


One of the treatments for it is to advise the biter to "self-talk" and calm themselves down. There are ton of experiments on non-human primates (and on some rodents). Turns out being locked up in a small cage with little to do increases the amount of self-biting in those species.

Hmmm. Apparently seen in adolescent in-patient wards as well. In the animal studies, they were able to take samples of spinal and brain fluid (too invasive for humans) and found that the biting did reset and improve the dopamine processes (calming processes) in the brain.

IMO. Though there are links above, I'm obviously speculating.

Absolutely fascinating. If true, it explains we have quite a different human reponse. Most people take up breathing and meditation, or if you are BK boxing. But anger biting is a new one for me. Hats off to your amazing knowledge! My heart goes out to what must have gone on in the Kohberger household when Bryan was young. JMOO.
 
Absolutely fascinating. If true, it explains we have quite a different human reponse. Most people take up breathing and meditation, or if you are BK boxing. But anger biting is a new one for me. Hats off to your amazing knowledge! My heart goes out to what must have gone on in the Kohberger household when Bryan was young. JMOO.

This also seems adjacent to cutting and we know the method of attack. It fits. IMO.
 
What's going on with BK's left hand --the bandage? Did he hurt himself? Blood work?

From June 9 hearing photo by (Zach Wilkinson/The Moscow-Pullman Daily News via AP, Pool)

He lost his health insurance when he lost his TA position; good thing he has free-to-him medical now.
Have to keep him healthy for the trial.

Maybe boxing in his cell or punched a wall? Strange location for a wound.

JMO
edit: It doesn't matter what he's wearing, he looks guilty to me. MOO
This was from his first hearing. I noticed it as well and it was suggested at the time it might have been from handcuff chaffing? IDK His hand looks puffy to me.

MOO
 
Agree. I believe that the grip used with this knife (regardless of who did it) was not the one shown in Psycho, but the one shown in training videos for this very knife (of which there are many on youtube).

The weapon is designed for careful placement, rapid death, and silence. If this killing had been frenzied, there'd have been more bloody footprints. The killer planned to kill people who were lying down (and with himself positioned in a manner so as to avoid as much arterial blood spurt as possible - which was also aided by some of the victims still being in bed or under covers).

I can easily imagine a killer who had taken criminal forensics (even at the basic level) to use a method in which the initial wound (designed to silence but lethal in and of itself) was placed in one manner, and then the body pushed into a position where it would not bleed out on the perp. Sure, the murderer got victim blood on himself, but didn't cut himself and leave a trail of blood nor even leave blood glove prints or foot prints everywhere. Just a few footprints that we know of.

IMO.


It's also a place where frustration biters bite themselves.

I now feel officially weird for having known this and for having actually seen it (in mental hospitals). I'm sure it must happen in jails as well. NIMH calls it "anger biting," I think.


Biting behaviors aren't well-studied (people self-bite; other-bite and it often starts in childhood).


One of the treatments for it is to advise the biter to "self-talk" and calm themselves down. There are ton of experiments on non-human primates (and on some rodents). Turns out being locked up in a small cage with little to do increases the amount of self-biting in those species.

Hmmm. Apparently seen in adolescent in-patient wards as well. In the animal studies, they were able to take samples of spinal and brain fluid (too invasive for humans) and found that the biting did reset and improve the dopamine processes (calming processes) in the brain.

IMO. Though there are links above, I'm obviously speculating.
Well, about the possibility of BK self-biting at that location where the big bandage is in the photo, I've seen it before as well in young men and adolescents but not in jail, in a facility for the developmentally disabled.

That's why when I first saw the bandage a few weeks or a month ago, it stopped me cold, and I knew somewhere in the back of my mind it reminded of something/someone.

It was the young men and teens who were functional in a facility environment with therapy and regular supervised meds, but were barely holding it together to meet expectations and could still have outburts sometimes, then would default to biting the top of their wrist to keep from having another outburst because they didn't want to go into lockdown with heavy sedation. Now that I think back (it was in the 70s) three of them out of maybe a dozen constantly had the back of their hand or their fist up to their mouth gnawing on it.

It is unsettling to consider BK or anyone doing this, and breaking the skin or bruising enough to need a bandage, but if he is I have to say I'm not surprised. He's been a ticking time bomb, IMO, and now in jail with no MH diagnosis or attendant meds or therapy other than meeting a pastor early on, no visits from family, no friends, no online freedom to self soothe, no meaningful outlets for any angst, AFAIK, he must be under some duress.

MOO
 
I didn't know about BK studying Bundy, very interesting. I know he studied BTK.

Add in the reddit questionnaire where he wants to understand criminals' thoughts and feelings as they commit crimes, and I get the creepy feeling that ....

BK was trying to understand himself

I'd guess that in that same course he took with the Serial Killer Psychiatrist, they probably covered Bundy, as he is always one of the case studies and, of course, his professor (online class btw) was the woman who got to interview Bundy.

Dorothy Otnow Lewis. Reviews of her classes reveal that Ted Bundy was frequently mentioned and her textbook on serial killers focuses a lot on him. Same lady who tried to testify in Letecia Stauch's insanity defense but was unable to truly provide a diagnosis (or even make sense, IMO).

I believe this is the book she uses in her class. She doesn't just cover serial killers, she tries to compare and contrast them with other kinds of killers (like David Chapman). At any rate, surely a semester-long class with Ortnow, who considers herself a leading expert on Bundy.

She also includes Shawcross, but in her last decade of interviews, has mentioned BTK and many others as well.

I think he was trying to understand his own fascination with crime. He shares that fascination with many WSers, I think.

But for Kohberger, he probably sensed and worried over his similarities in thought and fantasy to serial killers. Otnow Lewis focuses on the "minds" of killers. Kohberger comes to criminology via the psychology track (which is the most common pathway, IMO). Like some of us, he probably pondered the mistakes that criminals make and noted them, and had quite a large bank of information on how to commit crime.

IMO. What caused him to snap is the unanswered question, although I think he crashed and burned major league big time after arriving in Pullman and being, well, ostracized and disciplined by people who were frightened, half-frightened or very annoyed by him.

IMO, it was all anecdotal re BK having VSS per his posting about how he felt online and saying IIRC "as of today, ___insert date___, I have VSS. Here's how it feels...." and there has been no comfirmation he had it or still has it, or ever saw a doctor for it or was diagnosed with it. Although it's possible he was diagnosed by a professional, no comfirmation of that, and he didn't say that in his posts. It sounded more like he read about and decided he had it.

At first, early on in this thread, it wasn't supposed to be discussed (for the reasons above, IMO) specific to him, but a bit later the Mod posted it (VSS) could be discussed in a general manner on this thread. But it's been awhile since that post, so maybe the discussion has drifted a bit and being spoken about specific to BK again.

OP who have been here since early on are careful about it, and newer OP should have read all the Mod posts from the start that are repeated at the beginning of each new thread, the one about what's allowed re VSS included.

I personally take all discussion of VSS re BK with a huge grain of salt due to, AFAIK, it was his own self-diagnosis after reading about it online in his teens, he said it happened on a given day which doesn't sound right to me, and when the judge at his first court appearance after his arrest asked him if he had any medical or mental health conditions that would prevent him from understanding the charges against him (paraphrasing since I don't have access to the transcript right now), he said no.

So although he could have suffered through some symptoms of VSS at some point around a dozen or more years ago, and VSS itself can be discussed here, it's a big nothingburger re something like that being a factor in any issues he had at the time of their murders, IMO. Likewise with mental health (MH) issues related to VSS, no comfirmed diagnosis, no discussion allowed on that potential facet of BK.

MOO

Did you read the TapATalk posts? Who else could have written them? The person is using an email known to be associated with Kohberger. I've never read such a detailed, ongoing account of VSS. The details the writer has about VSS are both research based and personal. He also writes about his family and it sure sounds like the same family. He also writes about altercations within the family and his agony over his mental/neurological symptoms.

Those statements include notes about visits to doctors. I don't have them in front of me right now, but I do believe he was diagnosed. He talks about his parents taking him to doctors for it and nothing helped. Eventually, he thinks his diet helps (and this is consistent with what research says about VSS - the diet may or may not help, but sufferers truly need to have a structured framework that allows them to cope with day to day fluctuations in symptoms). In large studies of VSS, there's a lot of adaptation and coping, but never any relief or cure. Some people have it be less worse at certain times of the day (that's what Kohberger wrote on TapATalk).

VSS is not cured, unless he's the single person in the world who has had spontaneous remission (if anyone can find that in the medical literature - spontaneous remission of VSS, please let me know!)

The last decade of research shows that it has nothing to do with the ocular system, but with parts of the brain. It involves more than the snow itself. The majority of VSS sufferers have problems with depersonalization and derealization (both symptoms regarded as "disasociative") These are complex symptoms that I've been studying and trying to understand in various settings for 30 years. Neurological disorders can be profound and a whole bunch of them have some of these core dissociative traits - the same core traits. It's thought to be partly in the amygdala and hippocampus. It should not be minimized.

We are allowed to discuss VSS. I have read nearly the entire available literature since January or so. Here's a recent article:


Rules here say we ought not post the same things over and over, so I won't post the statistics about remission of VSS, but will post a treatment article from 2019 that I haven't posted:


Interesting, the person on TapATalk (who the owner of WS agrees is Kohberger) does mention taking one of those drugs. Said it didn't work (the most effective of the drugs listed were only effective 20% of the time).

Could you imagine having a disabling visual disorder that has almost no treatment? I have struggled with visual problems all my life, but mine are ocular and by the time I was 30, there were treatments (and today, well, I'm not going to complain).

Bryan Kohberger did his capstone project for the community college Psychology Honors Society (a nationwide organization) on "invisible disabilities" and improving people's approach to those with rare but not immediately visible impairment.

He also co-wrote a paper (presented at a conference in community college) on gender/sex bias in college science programs. Thought I'd throw that in there while I had his CC info in front of me. Three women were his co-presenters. Hard to tell what the findings were.

It's on p. 21 of this program:


IMO.

I did find the article I was looking for on his "staring" behavior, which so many found off-putting. I think it's his VSS (and it's typical of VSS sufferers). Three different students at U of I noticed him on campus (so I am adding those viewings to known viewings of Kohberger in and around U of I - there are the cell phone pings, but there are also sightings, and he's remembered for his "staring"):


VSS people do take longer and stare more to try and remember identify faces.
 
Well, about the possibility of BK self-biting at that location where the big bandage is in the photo, I've seen it before as well in young men and adolescents but not in jail, in a facility for the developmentally disabled.

That's why when I first saw the bandage a few weeks or a month ago, it stopped me cold, and I knew somewhere in the back of my mind it reminded of something/someone.

It was the young men and teens who were functional in a facility environment with therapy and regular supervised meds, but were barely holding it together to meet expectations and could still have outburts sometimes, then would default to biting the top of their wrist to keep from having another outburst because they didn't want to go into lockdown with heavy sedation. Now that I think back (it was in the 70s) three of them out of maybe a dozen constantly had the back of their hand or their fist up to their mouth gnawing on it.

It is unsettling to consider BK or anyone doing this, and breaking the skin or bruising enough to need a bandage, but if he is I have to say I'm not surprised. He's been a ticking time bomb, IMO, and now in jail with no MH diagnosis or attendant meds or therapy other than meeting a pastor early on, no visits from family, no friends, no online freedom to self soothe, no meaningful outlets for any angst, AFAIK, he must be under some duress.

MOO

I had that same vague feeling when someone first pointed out the red hands and the bandaid. I just wasn't putting it together very well yet.

In the cases I saw, it was all young men as well. Barely holding it together. Struggling with day to day institutional expectations (I've read about it happening outside of institutions, but it's definitely well documented within the mental health literature - and the prison/jail literature).

I'm not surprised either. Somehow, it's like a piece of the puzzle clicked in there - and I hope you are okay with me disagreeing about the VSS. I'm writing a bit about the topic for my own reasons, but I was going to post more about it here at some point. I agree that without his usual stabilizing lifestyle (he had to have been destabilized by moving out of the parental home - but I now wonder if his dad drove with him in both directions because driving was basically one of those skills on the outer edge of Bryan's abilities - it would explain why he kept tailgating, for example and might not have understanding of some of the properties of objects, because VSS interferes with that - there are learning curves about such things that take place in the teens; he says it started when he was 14).

His major self-soothing was likely use of the internet/his phone. And, I bet he got lost rather often due to the extra time needed to do visual processing (it would have been enough for him just to focus on traffic; directional signs and road junctions must have been a nightmare for him).

Here's a neuro- ophthalmologist who puts her reconstruction of how field of vision looks to a VSS suffering at the very beginning of her short video:


I feel it goes along with the kind of neurological difficulties in which we see the biting behavior. For me, this is all coming together at some level.

Speculation and facts above, both.
 
I was curious about BK's jail routine was like and if he had outside time, I found this article from NN:

<snipped>

Other than attending Mass, Kohberger spends a lot of time sleeping, according to NewsNation’s source. He is allowed outside for an hour every day and also has access to his own television.

Kohberger’s television is positioned outside the bars of his cell, so he watches through the bars. However, he does have the remote to control it. Sources tell NewsNation he also has a tablet with an app that allows him to watch older movies for five cents a minute. It is unclear if he has money, where it may be coming from or whether he is even spending it, but he does have access.

What Bryan Kohberger’s life in jail looks like.
 
I had that same vague feeling when someone first pointed out the red hands and the bandaid. I just wasn't putting it together very well yet.

In the cases I saw, it was all young men as well. Barely holding it together. Struggling with day to day institutional expectations (I've read about it happening outside of institutions, but it's definitely well documented within the mental health literature - and the prison/jail literature).

I'm not surprised either. Somehow, it's like a piece of the puzzle clicked in there - and I hope you are okay with me disagreeing about the VSS. I'm writing a bit about the topic for my own reasons, but I was going to post more about it here at some point. I agree that without his usual stabilizing lifestyle (he had to have been destabilized by moving out of the parental home - but I now wonder if his dad drove with him in both directions because driving was basically one of those skills on the outer edge of Bryan's abilities - it would explain why he kept tailgating, for example and might not have understanding of some of the properties of objects, because VSS interferes with that - there are learning curves about such things that take place in the teens; he says it started when he was 14).

His major self-soothing was likely use of the internet/his phone. And, I bet he got lost rather often due to the extra time needed to do visual processing (it would have been enough for him just to focus on traffic; directional signs and road junctions must have been a nightmare for him).

Here's a neuro- ophthalmologist who puts her reconstruction of how field of vision looks to a VSS suffering at the very beginning of her short video:


I feel it goes along with the kind of neurological difficulties in which we see the biting behavior. For me, this is all coming together at some level.

Speculation and facts above, both.

I read a bit about it previously. Sometimes I try to integrate the facts of the case with concepts of interruption (or say could this have been stopped) / escalation.

Thank you for the articles. I read these previously.



I imagine lack of sleep was a big contributor. I wish he had gotten the help he needed with this unusual condition, especially if it actually did escalate to what occured once in Moscow. IMO.
 
I'd guess that in that same course he took with the Serial Killer Psychiatrist, they probably covered Bundy, as he is always one of the case studies and, of course, his professor (online class btw) was the woman who got to interview Bundy.

Dorothy Otnow Lewis. Reviews of her classes reveal that Ted Bundy was frequently mentioned and her textbook on serial killers focuses a lot on him. Same lady who tried to testify in Letecia Stauch's insanity defense but was unable to truly provide a diagnosis (or even make sense, IMO).

I believe this is the book she uses in her class. She doesn't just cover serial killers, she tries to compare and contrast them with other kinds of killers (like David Chapman). At any rate, surely a semester-long class with Ortnow, who considers herself a leading expert on Bundy.

She also includes Shawcross, but in her last decade of interviews, has mentioned BTK and many others as well.

I think he was trying to understand his own fascination with crime. He shares that fascination with many WSers, I think.

But for Kohberger, he probably sensed and worried over his similarities in thought and fantasy to serial killers. Otnow Lewis focuses on the "minds" of killers. Kohberger comes to criminology via the psychology track (which is the most common pathway, IMO). Like some of us, he probably pondered the mistakes that criminals make and noted them, and had quite a large bank of information on how to commit crime.

IMO. What caused him to snap is the unanswered question, although I think he crashed and burned major league big time after arriving in Pullman and being, well, ostracized and disciplined by people who were frightened, half-frightened or very annoyed by him.



Did you read the TapATalk posts? Who else could have written them? The person is using an email known to be associated with Kohberger. I've never read such a detailed, ongoing account of VSS. The details the writer has about VSS are both research based and personal. He also writes about his family and it sure sounds like the same family. He also writes about altercations within the family and his agony over his mental/neurological symptoms.

Those statements include notes about visits to doctors. I don't have them in front of me right now, but I do believe he was diagnosed. He talks about his parents taking him to doctors for it and nothing helped. Eventually, he thinks his diet helps (and this is consistent with what research says about VSS - the diet may or may not help, but sufferers truly need to have a structured framework that allows them to cope with day to day fluctuations in symptoms). In large studies of VSS, there's a lot of adaptation and coping, but never any relief or cure. Some people have it be less worse at certain times of the day (that's what Kohberger wrote on TapATalk).

VSS is not cured, unless he's the single person in the world who has had spontaneous remission (if anyone can find that in the medical literature - spontaneous remission of VSS, please let me know!)

The last decade of research shows that it has nothing to do with the ocular system, but with parts of the brain. It involves more than the snow itself. The majority of VSS sufferers have problems with depersonalization and derealization (both symptoms regarded as "disasociative") These are complex symptoms that I've been studying and trying to understand in various settings for 30 years. Neurological disorders can be profound and a whole bunch of them have some of these core dissociative traits - the same core traits. It's thought to be partly in the amygdala and hippocampus. It should not be minimized.

We are allowed to discuss VSS. I have read nearly the entire available literature since January or so. Here's a recent article:


Rules here say we ought not post the same things over and over, so I won't post the statistics about remission of VSS, but will post a treatment article from 2019 that I haven't posted:


Interesting, the person on TapATalk (who the owner of WS agrees is Kohberger) does mention taking one of those drugs. Said it didn't work (the most effective of the drugs listed were only effective 20% of the time).

Could you imagine having a disabling visual disorder that has almost no treatment? I have struggled with visual problems all my life, but mine are ocular and by the time I was 30, there were treatments (and today, well, I'm not going to complain).

Bryan Kohberger did his capstone project for the community college Psychology Honors Society (a nationwide organization) on "invisible disabilities" and improving people's approach to those with rare but not immediately visible impairment.

He also co-wrote a paper (presented at a conference in community college) on gender/sex bias in college science programs. Thought I'd throw that in there while I had his CC info in front of me. Three women were his co-presenters. Hard to tell what the findings were.

It's on p. 21 of this program:


IMO.

I did find the article I was looking for on his "staring" behavior, which so many found off-putting. I think it's his VSS (and it's typical of VSS sufferers). Three different students at U of I noticed him on campus (so I am adding those viewings to known viewings of Kohberger in and around U of I - there are the cell phone pings, but there are also sightings, and he's remembered for his "staring"):


VSS people do take longer and stare more to try and remember identify faces.
All along I've struggled with the quantum leap from an overweight teen who was harassed, lost the weight, became a heroin addict, got clean and then seeming to get his life back on track by getting a Masters and entering a Ph.D program and then to being arrested on suspicion of murdering 4 students. Wondering what I'm missing. Maybe the pieces are
starting to fall into place.
 
All along I've struggled with the quantum leap from an overweight teen who was harassed, lost the weight, became a heroin addict, got clean and then seeming to get his life back on track by getting a Masters and entering a Ph.D program and then to being arrested on suspicion of murdering 4 students. Wondering what I'm missing. Maybe the pieces are
starting to fall into place.

He was obviously profoundly unhappy but I'm wondering if he had started taking some form of medication officially or unofficially?

Maybe some form of anti anxiety medication or an amphetamine or steroid? JMO MOO pure speculation
 
Do we have enough information to know whether BK's heroin usage lines up with his major weight loss? Clearly, he lost a ton of weight, and we've heard that he was hospitalized for some reason during this time. But was it a regular hospital or rehab? I've been struggling to line up his heroin use, weight loss, boxing, and running. Can all those things co-exist?
 

6/16/23

"A grand jury was empaneled at a time when the small community of Moscow, Idaho had been exposed to 6 months of intense local, national, and international media coverage," documents submitted by Kohberger's defense read.

"Because the state has provided extensive discovery, Mr. Kohberger knows that exculpatory evidence exists. Whether a fair and impartial panel of grand jurors was assembled amidst intense media coverage is a significant question the Defense must evaluate."

Essentially, Kohberger's lawyers are asking to review all documents which the grand jury had access to and potentially toss out their indictment, and to have more time to prepare their defense, especially as the charges against the 28-year-old could carry the death penalty.

[..]

"When you have a grand jury, in most jurisdictions [...] you have to give the defense the opportunity to present exculpatory evidence, if you will, once you know the grand jury is happening," he said.

"The challenge to exculpatory evidence, what I think the argument—they're laying the groundwork to the argument—is that 'Hey, we know there's exculpatory evidence, we didn't get a chance to present that, that is our right, even though it's a secret proceeding."

Geragos added that Kohberger's lawyer Anne Taylor is "laying the groundwork for a motion to dismiss, and what she's asking for, 'Pause this thing, we want to time out basically, so we can assemble the information that we would have presented to the grand jury."
 
All along I've struggled with the quantum leap from an overweight teen who was harassed, lost the weight, became a heroin addict, got clean and then seeming to get his life back on track by getting a Masters and entering a Ph.D program and then to being arrested on suspicion of murdering 4 students. Wondering what I'm missing. Maybe the pieces are
starting to fall into place.
well, Dorothy had a strange effect on me too during Gannon's trial, so there's that.
Mitigating factor?
I nearly broke my screen, in fact..
Luckily the jury saw through her antics so all was well in the end..
 
I'd guess that in that same course he took with the Serial Killer Psychiatrist, they probably covered Bundy, as he is always one of the case studies and, of course, his professor (online class btw) was the woman who got to interview Bundy.

Dorothy Otnow Lewis. Reviews of her classes reveal that Ted Bundy was frequently mentioned and her textbook on serial killers focuses a lot on him. Same lady who tried to testify in Letecia Stauch's insanity defense but was unable to truly provide a diagnosis (or even make sense, IMO).

I believe this is the book she uses in her class. She doesn't just cover serial killers, she tries to compare and contrast them with other kinds of killers (like David Chapman). At any rate, surely a semester-long class with Ortnow, who considers herself a leading expert on Bundy.

She also includes Shawcross, but in her last decade of interviews, has mentioned BTK and many others as well.

I think he was trying to understand his own fascination with crime. He shares that fascination with many WSers, I think.

But for Kohberger, he probably sensed and worried over his similarities in thought and fantasy to serial killers. Otnow Lewis focuses on the "minds" of killers. Kohberger comes to criminology via the psychology track (which is the most common pathway, IMO). Like some of us, he probably pondered the mistakes that criminals make and noted them, and had quite a large bank of information on how to commit crime.

IMO. What caused him to snap is the unanswered question, although I think he crashed and burned major league big time after arriving in Pullman and being, well, ostracized and disciplined by people who were frightened, half-frightened or very annoyed by him.



Did you read the TapATalk posts? Who else could have written them? The person is using an email known to be associated with Kohberger. I've never read such a detailed, ongoing account of VSS. The details the writer has about VSS are both research based and personal. He also writes about his family and it sure sounds like the same family. He also writes about altercations within the family and his agony over his mental/neurological symptoms.

Those statements include notes about visits to doctors. I don't have them in front of me right now, but I do believe he was diagnosed. He talks about his parents taking him to doctors for it and nothing helped. Eventually, he thinks his diet helps (and this is consistent with what research says about VSS - the diet may or may not help, but sufferers truly need to have a structured framework that allows them to cope with day to day fluctuations in symptoms). In large studies of VSS, there's a lot of adaptation and coping, but never any relief or cure. Some people have it be less worse at certain times of the day (that's what Kohberger wrote on TapATalk).

VSS is not cured, unless he's the single person in the world who has had spontaneous remission (if anyone can find that in the medical literature - spontaneous remission of VSS, please let me know!)

The last decade of research shows that it has nothing to do with the ocular system, but with parts of the brain. It involves more than the snow itself. The majority of VSS sufferers have problems with depersonalization and derealization (both symptoms regarded as "disasociative") These are complex symptoms that I've been studying and trying to understand in various settings for 30 years. Neurological disorders can be profound and a whole bunch of them have some of these core dissociative traits - the same core traits. It's thought to be partly in the amygdala and hippocampus. It should not be minimized.

We are allowed to discuss VSS. I have read nearly the entire available literature since January or so. Here's a recent article:


Rules here say we ought not post the same things over and over, so I won't post the statistics about remission of VSS, but will post a treatment article from 2019 that I haven't posted:


Interesting, the person on TapATalk (who the owner of WS agrees is Kohberger) does mention taking one of those drugs. Said it didn't work (the most effective of the drugs listed were only effective 20% of the time).

Could you imagine having a disabling visual disorder that has almost no treatment? I have struggled with visual problems all my life, but mine are ocular and by the time I was 30, there were treatments (and today, well, I'm not going to complain).

Bryan Kohberger did his capstone project for the community college Psychology Honors Society (a nationwide organization) on "invisible disabilities" and improving people's approach to those with rare but not immediately visible impairment.

He also co-wrote a paper (presented at a conference in community college) on gender/sex bias in college science programs. Thought I'd throw that in there while I had his CC info in front of me. Three women were his co-presenters. Hard to tell what the findings were.

It's on p. 21 of this program:


IMO.

I did find the article I was looking for on his "staring" behavior, which so many found off-putting. I think it's his VSS (and it's typical of VSS sufferers). Three different students at U of I noticed him on campus (so I am adding those viewings to known viewings of Kohberger in and around U of I - there are the cell phone pings, but there are also sightings, and he's remembered for his "staring"):


VSS people do take longer and stare more to try and remember identify faces.
Huh, that is interesting to hear or re-hear details of VSS and how it could have been affecting BK.

I think it's great you're delving into it, it sounds like a significant life-altering or at least mood- or psyche-altering disorder to have to deal with, especially at a young age and during formative years that can be already challenging for some.

And yes, I've understood that he had seen a neurologist and some meds had been prescribed that didn't help or had made matters worse. According to him.

It's just that no professionals or family members have confirmed any of that, or come out and said, oh yeah, it was bad and he was really struggling but nothing seemed to help. Poor Bryan, we've all been wringing our hands over what to do about Bryan, including the professionals. I'm thinking we would have heard more factual info about him and treatment and status if he had had something more common like depression or anxiety, maybe exacerbated by certain factors the VSS worsened, but we have not heard anything like that, IIRC.

I'm putting on my skeptic's hat on this issue, mainly because without any proof he suffered from VSS at 15 years old and it affected him to the point that when he was 28 and living in ID and before he went on a murderous spree, whether it should be given any consideration. He could be making it all up after finding some info on the internet that rang a bell about VSS, and the next thing you know he has it.

I've known and/or heard of some people (perhaps mentally fragile and/or mentally unstable) who can go way down the rabbit hole of self diagnosing based on something they read on the internet. So I have to give it a pass with no proof before it rises to the top 10 of considerations for me, that's all.

It's just me, no offense taken at all if you disagree, and provide reasons why. It's much appreciated, and part of the dialogue, which is why a lot of us are here, like me, IMO, I can see things from both sides, but still tend to lean in to one or the other based on what rises to the surface for me at the moment, it's mutable for me.

I'm not saying you or OP who discuss VSS related to BK are implying anything related to the murders, but I sometimes feel like I'm trying to swim back to shore before going under the surface of the rising tide of all the possibilities of what might have driven him to be like he is and possibly or probably do what he did, murder 4 innocent young adults in their sleep or their bedrooms at night in the safety of their home for no known reasons, and then hide it as best he could.

Yes, I believe along with a lot of people here that it was likely BK posting the tapatalk messages about suffering VSS symptoms. But I haven't read them in detail nor read every one, nor did I want to (possibly be "taken in" by an anonymous poster who could be a poser). Must mentally plug my ears and go "nah nah nah" with any anonymous narratives. If he was having all these issues, why did no one ever say anything on the record about how bad it was? Why does he imply anonymously he was bullied, when his ex friends and classmates say he was the bully?

There's be no one but him (if it was him, it's just a supposition and he's never come clean) to confirm any of it was real or exaggerated or fabricated for sympathy, and he certainly hasn't ever admitted "I'm Bryan CK, and I suffer from VSS....".

The broad brush overview I got from reading some of them somewhere, wondering if it was legitimate versus attention seeking, self-diagnosing and possibly feeling relief that he could maybe put a finger on what was going on with him, was like, good for him, but so what for the victim's loved ones? And why take up time trying to parse out its relevance in their murders, which is what we're here to discuss? I might be missing something, apologies if I am being obtuse or unreasonably skeptical about him having VSS and what it was like, but I can't give him any credit for suffering silently, if he even did, and he didn't make it up to play everyone.

He won't ever get any sympathy from me after what he's alleged to have done to Maddie, Xana, Kaylee, and Ethan and their families and community, until maybe down the line if he is found innocent on all charges (ETA: Or mentally incompetent, which I wouldn't be surprised he's been vying for as his ace in the hole if push comes to shove -- heretofore undiagnosed MH issues, of course) and the experts do diagnose him with VSS and what not, and those brain or mental illnesses are unilaterally opined as legitimate causal effects of that syndrome, which could give him an excuse for being a violent criminal. I don't know where we're going with it (the discussion of VSS), is all, and it keeps coming up everyone so often, probably for a reason, but, meh.

I find him staring and not being able to read faces and social cues as much more common and believable than all the rest of the VSS symptoms anyway, and think still kind of so what? He was creepy in other ways for doggone sure, IMO.

Sorry I'm standing firm on this one, the possibility he has VSS is neither here nor there for me, but I always appreciate yours and other's perspectives, of course.

All MOO.
 
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Do we have enough information to know whether BK's heroin usage lines up with his major weight loss? Clearly, he lost a ton of weight, and we've heard that he was hospitalized for some reason during this time. But was it a regular hospital or rehab? I've been struggling to line up his heroin use, weight loss, boxing, and running. Can all those things co-exist?
@maskedwoman Here is a link to an article from the Idaho Statesmen:

<snipped.
Former friends of the Idaho university murder suspect Bryan Kohberger have spoken out about the accused killer’s struggle with heroin addiction.

In an interview with the Idaho Statesman, high school friends and acquaintances of Mr Kohberger addressed previous reports that he was bullied because of his weight.

Bryan Kohberger’s former friends tell how he became addicted to heroin
 
If anybody else is wondering wth is with Idaho's un-numbered Motions, Responses, and Orders--Statute only requires the Case Number and Title of the Document... Oh, and double-space the body of the document! o_O

(2) they must contain a caption containing the names of the parties, the title of the court, the case number and the title of the document;

 
Something that struck me as odd about Kohberger's internet messages about VSS, supposedly when he was around 15 years of age, is that he appeared to be self-diagnosing using the internet. I don't recall him mentioning that his parents took him to see an eye specialist. I read somewhere that he ended up in the hospital due to his extreme dieting and weight loss when he was a senior in high school. And then his addiction to heroin. I just wondered if there was a mental/physical gulf between him and his parents.

He did--I just reread them. He had seen an optometrist, an ophthalmologist, a neurologist, a therapist, and a regular doctor (who also diagnosed him with hypothyroidism in addition to migraines). At one point he mentioned an neuroophthalmologist, but I can't tell if that was followed up on.
 
Huh, that is interesting to hear or re-hear details of VSS and how it could have been affecting BK.

I think it's great you're delving into it, it sounds like a significant life-altering or at least mood- or psyche-altering disorder to have to deal with, especially at a young age and during formative years that can be already challenging for some.

And yes, I've understood that he had seen a neurologist and some meds had been prescribed that didn't help or had made matters worse. According to him.

It's just that no professionals or family members have confirmed any of that, or come out and said, oh yeah, it was bad and he was really struggling but nothing seemed to help. Poor Bryan, we've all been wringing our hands over what to do about Bryan, including the professionals. I'm thinking we would have heard more factual info about him and treatment and status if he had had something more common like depression or anxiety, maybe exacerbated by certain factors the VSS worsened, but we have not heard anything like that, IIRC.

I'm putting on my skeptic's hat on this issue, mainly because without any proof he suffered from VSS at 15 years old and it affected him to the point that when he was 28 and living in ID and before he went on a murderous spree, whether it should be given any consideration. He could be making it all up after finding some info on the internet that rang a bell about VSS, and the next thing you know he has it.

I've known and/or heard of some people (perhaps mentally fragile and/or mentally unstable) who can go way down the rabbit hole of self diagnosing based on something they read on the internet. So I have to give it a pass with no proof before it rises to the top 10 of considerations for me, that's all.

It's just me, no offense taken at all if you disagree, and provide reasons why. It's much appreciated, and part of the dialogue, which is why a lot of us are here, like me, IMO, I can see things from both sides, but still tend to lean in to one or the other based on what rises to the surface for me at the moment, it's mutable for me.

I'm not saying you or OP who discuss VSS related to BK are implying anything related to the murders, but I sometimes feel like I'm trying to swim back to shore before going under the surface of the rising tide of all the possibilities of what might have driven him to be like he is and possibly or probably do what he did, murder 4 innocent young adults in their sleep or their bedrooms at night in the safety of their home for no known reasons, and then hide it as best he could.

Yes, I believe along with a lot of people here that it was likely BK posting the tapatalk messages about suffering VSS symptoms. But I haven't read them in detail nor read every one, nor did I want to (possibly be "taken in" by an anonymous poster who could be a poser). Must mentally plug my ears and go "nah nah nah" with any anonymous narratives. If he was having all these issues, why did no one ever say anything on the record about how bad it was? Why does he imply anonymously he was bullied, when his ex friends and classmates say he was the bully?

There's be no one but him (if it was him, it's just a supposition and he's never come clean) to confirm any of it was real or exaggerated or fabricated for sympathy, and he certainly hasn't ever admitted "I'm Bryan CK, and I suffer from VSS....".

The broad brush overview I got from reading some of them somewhere, wondering if it was legitimate versus attention seeking, self-diagnosing and possibly feeling relief that he could maybe put a finger on what was going on with him, was like, good for him, but so what for the victim's loved ones? And why take up time trying to parse out its relevance in their murders, which is what we're here to discuss? I might be missing something, apologies if I am being obtuse or unreasonably skeptical about him having VSS and what it was like, but I can't give him any credit for suffering silently, if he even did, and he didn't make it up to play everyone.

He won't ever get any sympathy from me after what he's alleged to have done to Maddie, Xana, Kaylee, and Ethan and their families and community, until maybe down the line if he is found innocent on all charges (ETA: Or mentally incompetent, which I wouldn't be surprised he's been vying for as his ace in the hole if push comes to shove -- heretofore undiagnosed MH issues, of course) and the experts do diagnose him with VSS and what not, and those brain or mental illnesses are unilaterally opined as legitimate causal effects of that syndrome, which could give him an excuse for being a violent criminal. I don't know where we're going with it (the discussion of VSS), is all, and it keeps coming up everyone so often, probably for a reason, but, meh.

I find him staring and not being able to read faces and social cues as much more common and believable than all the rest of the VSS symptoms anyway, and think still kind of so what? He was creepy in other ways for doggone sure, IMO.

Sorry I'm standing firm on this one, the possibility he has VSS is neither here nor there for me, but I always appreciate yours and other's perspectives, of course.

All MOO.
I'm really interested in psychology and always enjoy @10ofRods work.
I do share your feelings on this, however.
i don't care about him.
In the way he didn't care about who he allegedly slaughtered with so much viciousness.
I'm normally an absolute bandage for people with problems but not this boy.
In fact I'm struggling not to wish nastiness upon him, because that will degenerate my own psyche. no other reason.
I'm cold as hell on this one.
But I've been like this before and subsequently ended up feeling huge drowning waves of compassion..
 
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