4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #84

[10ofRods]

RSBM

I don't remember ever seeing a warrant issued for the search that the WSU police officers did when they searched the parking data base at WSU, looking for a white Elantra among the cars owned by their faculty, staff and students, and then handing that information over to the Mosdow Police Department.

It just seems odd to me that the information that university employees provide in order to park on state university campuses isn't protected like other information and that a search warrant wasn't needed.

Maybe others know why that is the case, and how WSU officers were able to do this without a warrant. Or maybe I missed the warrant information on the long list of warrants and warrant returns issued that many of our researchers here have posted over the course of this case.

I don't know about WSU but every single college (and other businesses) I've worked for have plain language in the parking contract, to the effect that if you intend to park on the campus and use the parking permit, you agree to be monitored by the police as to where and when you can park on the campus or for any other purpose relating to safety or law enforcement. There are good reasons for this - and it's true at every K-12 public school in my area as well.

Educational information is the only thing protected (for students only) on college campuses - but even so, whether or not a student attended or is attending and what degrees and certificates they have...is public.

There are neighborhoods in California that require parking permits too, and it's exactly the same agreement - to park in a particular place, you agree to display your license plate.

A license plate is public information, although in California, only LE and DMV have the ability to just run a plate. But anyone else could get the info from the DMV for a fee. It's not private. It's not meant to be private. Cars must be publicly designated and in a database that the state (and anyone else with money) can access.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Also, if I recall correctly, the distant cousin of about the same age who also popped up gave his DNA when asked without hesitation and was ruled out very quickly.

MOO

Yes - that's exactly what happened. LE did everything possible to convince the Court that they had the right guy. And they did.

The Coroner in SoCal who kept that genetic sample all those years was still alive at the time of his capture, it was great.

But LE was already following Joe after pairing up his last name with, especially, the Sacramento break-ins and rapes. They had no DNA from the Sacramento rape kits, as they had lost/thrown them out. And the statute of limitations had run on those - but even without local DNA, they were able to piece together that the rapes in Sacramento occurred in areas where he was patrolling.

Another weird thing is that he actually was caught on camera in the back of the room when LE were giving public safety meetings and the community was invited.

I believe he's also responsible for two murders near VIsalia (of young girls) and of a series of break-ins and attempted rape (we know he broke into a house with the intent of rape in Visalia - but shot and killed the father there and escaped). It was his first year as a police officer.

Many parallels to this case.

IMO.

 

[Seattle1]

Source please...

Exactly! And coupled with BT's vehicle captured on video at/near the crime scene in the early morning hour, and the ID of one of the victims allegedly found inside his vehicle, he's done.

Further to the vehicle registered to BK in police custody, sources told News Nation that an ID belonging to somebody who lived in the Moscow residence was found inside the vehicle (gag order on the trial has stopped police from confirming any details about the card). If true, this would certainly be difficult for the defense to discount, especially given their recent statement that BK had no connection to the victims. MOO

Also, it's since been posted the ID was on the search warrant returned for the PA residence.

 

[Sundog]

I don't know about WSU but every single college (and other businesses) I've worked for have plain language in the parking contract, to the effect that if you intend to park on the campus and use the parking permit, you agree to be monitored by the police as to where and when you can park on the campus or for any other purpose relating to safety or law enforcement.

<snipped for focus>

With regard to the bolded part above, at the university where I work currently, I have never seen that language in a parking contract, and just checked our website and there is no information there on what the parking permit contract consists of in terms of other "law enforcement purposes."

I wonder who owns the database that is kept by the campus parking office. I would think that it is owned by the university, and access to it by an outside entity would require a warrant, nothing to do with FERPA for students since it's not academic information, but still not a public database. For example, I doubt that anyone - for example the media - can just make a public records request to get a copy of all the information in the database. They would be able to pull up info on where the employee worked, his/her department, phone number, etc.

IIRC, the WSU police officer had not only identified a white Elantra and its owner, but had access to a photo ID of BK as well, with some mention of noting that the owner had "bushy eyebrows." I don't know if the officer was looking at BK's driver's license or BK's campus identification card when he made that comment. I assume it was the former, BK's driver's license in a national database and they were looking at his license from PA, as I don't think BK had a WA state driver's license at that time, IIRC.

 

[10ofRods]

<snipped for focus>

With regard to the bolded part above, at the university where I work currently, I have never seen that language in a parking contract, and just checked our website and there is no information there on what the parking permit contract consists of in terms of other "law enforcement purposes."

I wonder who owns the database that is kept by the campus parking office. I would think that it is owned by the university, and access to it by an outside entity would require a warrant, nothing to do with FERPA for students since it's not academic information, but still not a public database. For example, I doubt that anyone - for example the media - can just make a public records request to get a copy of all the information in the database. They would be able to pull up info on where the employee worked, his/her department, phone number, etc.

IIRC, the WSU police officer had not only identified a white Elantra and its owner, but had access to a photo ID of BK as well, with some mention of noting that the owner had "bushy eyebrows." I don't know if the officer was looking at BK's driver's license or BK's campus identification card when he made that comment. I assume it was the former, BK's driver's license in a national database and they were looking at his license from PA, as I don't think BK had a WA state driver's license at that time, IIRC.

It's not a public database. I do have to fill out an application every two years, where I work (we all do if we want to park on campus in other than guest parking). That means that the sticker/pass I get is directly linked to my vehicle, and to my name, which in turn, of course is in the employee database. LE can and do access all of this - and do so regularly, especially for student cars. They can run a criminal background check on anyone in the parking database. While that's not explicitly stated in the permit process, it is in fact one of the main reasons for the permit process (some employees do not have to pay - they get the passes for free, but they still have to put their personal and DMV information on file to have the permit).

Any time I'm required to use DMV information to get something, I am well aware that this means whoever is collect my data (in this case, vehicle license plate number) can use it. It's implicit in the application process.

Otherwise, the rules where I work simply say that parking enforcement is the goal of parking permit process and that all rules and regulations of the Board of Trustees shall apply. Most do not bother to go look those up, of course. There are absolutely no Board rules prohibiting the use of this information by the group of employees known as "Confidential" (that's not just LE - but also their managers, who reside in the Business Division of the college - they too have access to my DMV data if they wish).

I'm pretty sure that's the same in most situations where an employer asks for this information, but now I'm glad that at least the portal for my college tells me that the parking process is registering with law enforcement. Because that's exactly what it is. No one else has access to or can use the parking data - except this group of Board-approved employees. By design. I think it's the same at all public colleges in California, but not sure.

Oh, and LE routinely cooperate with other LE. Campus police here readily share information from cameras and from parking data base (and other data bases, including behavioral ones) with other LE entities, no warrant needed. Thankfully. So when the knife wielding guy was on campus in May, they were able to run rapid and parallel reports on him within 15 minutes - from four local LE agencies that had data on him. He also had a behavioral profile. I know this because our campus police publish their reports of such incidents, per federal accreditation standards.

And, where I work, if a student has a felony record, they have to register with the campus police and their permission to pass onto campus will be revoked if there are further criminal charges pending. This does not, btw, prevent them from taking online courses. Just from being on campus. Nor do they have to tell their professors - I am always impressed with the people who do let us know, it helps build trust.

IMO.

IMO.

 

[Seattle1]

RSBM

I don't remember ever seeing a warrant issued for the search that the WSU police officers did when they searched the parking data base at WSU, looking for a white Elantra among the cars owned by their faculty, staff and students, and then handing that information over to the Mosdow Police Department.

It just seems odd to me that the information that university employees provide in order to park on state university campuses isn't protected like other information and that a search warrant wasn't needed.

Maybe others know why that is the case, and how WSU officers were able to do this without a warrant. Or maybe I missed the warrant information on the long list of warrants and warrant returns issued that many of our researchers here have posted over the course of this case.

I'm not seeing WSU police responding to a BOLO from MPD an event requiring a search warrant. WSU Officer reportedly ran a query for any white Elantra on campus.

Search for white Hyundai was key in Bryan Kohberger case

Police say cell phone records show Kohberger's phone near the murder scene at least 12 times before the night of the stabbings, starting in August.

www.cbsnews.com

"Tracking movements in public is an important technique when you haven't identified any suspects," said Mary D. Fan, a criminal law professor at the University of Washington. "You can see movements in public even if you don't have probable cause to get a warrant. We live in a time of ubiquitous cameras. This is a remarkable account of what piecing together that audiovisual data can do."
[..]

The car's first pass by the home was recorded at 3:29 a.m. on Nov. 13 — less than an hour before Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle and Ethan Chapin were stabbed to death in their rooms, Moscow Police Cpl. Brett Payne wrote in the affidavit.

The vehicle drove by twice more and was recorded a fourth time at 4:04 a.m., Payne wrote. It wasn't seen on the footage again until it sped away 16 minutes later.
[..]

On Nov. 25, the Moscow Police Department asked regional law enforcement to look for a white Elantra. Three nights later, a WSU police officer ran a query for any white Elantras on campus.

One came back as having a Pennsylvania license plate and being registered to Kohberger. Within half an hour, another campus officer located the vehicle parked at Kohberger's apartment complex. It came back as having Washington state tags. Five days after the killings, Kohberger had switched the registration from Pennsylvania, his home state, to Washington, the affidavit said.

Investigators now had a name to go on, and further investigation yielded more clues. Kohberger's driver's license described him as 6 feet tall and 185 pounds, and his license photo showed him to have bushy eyebrows — all details consistent with a description of the attacker given by a surviving roommate, the affidavit said.

More research revealed that Kohberger had been pulled over by a Latah County, Idaho, sheriff's deputy in August while driving the Elantra. He gave the deputy a cellphone number.

 

[DeDee]

I wonder if BK's legal team is already working with a mitigation specialist, since it sounds like the investigation that s/he undertakes could take a fair amount of time, and perhaps even benefit the defense during the trial phase of a capital case (just speculation on the latter). In any event, if BK is found guilty of murder at his trial, then they will need a mitigation specialist during the sentencing phase, and to identify experts to provide testimony.

Given the discussion of VSS on this thread, it is nteresting that this website on mitigiation and mitigation specialists also refers to possible "neurological conditions" as an example of a mitigating factor.

As mitigation has become recognized as a critical part of a capital trial, defense attorneys have turned to mitigation specialists to investigate defendants' backgrounds. Mitigation specialists examine defendants' family history, medical history, educational and employment background, and any other element of an individual's life that may convince the jury to return a sentence other than death. With this information, they assist defense counsel in presenting a coherent case for mitigation. The role of the mitigation specialist is so central to a client's defense that the American Bar Association includes them in their guidelines on the defense in death penalty cases: "The defense team should consist of no fewer than two attorneys…an investigator, and a mitigation specialist." (Guideline 4.1, page 952) In the commentary to this guideline, the ABA says,

"A mitigation specialist is also an indispensable member of the defense team throughout all capital proceedings. Mitigation specialists possess clinical and information-gathering skills and training that most lawyers simply do not have. They have the time and the ability to elicit sensitive, embarrassing and often humiliating evidence (e.g., family sexual abuse) that the defendant may have never disclosed. They have the clinical skills to recognize such things as congenital, mental or neurological conditions, to understand how these conditions may have affected the defendant’s development and behavior, and to identify the most appropriate experts to examine the defendant or testify on his behalf." (Commentary on Guideline 4.1, page 959)

Mitigation in Capital Cases | Capital Punishment in Context

capitalpunishmentincontext.org

While I am unsure of the reasons why a juror may take this into consideration I certainly would bc I'd never heard of VSS until this case and VSS scares me. No one should have to live with VSS interrupting their lives bc it's terrorizing for the patient with VSS as there's no known cure.

It makes me wonder how well BK was able to see in order to drive at night with VSS. When did his symptoms stop? Surely his VSS symptoms stopped before selecting the UoW 1500 miles from home.

 

[iamshadow21]

While I am unsure of the reasons why a juror may take this into consideration I certainly would bc I'd never heard of VSS until this case and VSS scares me. No one should have to live with VSS interrupting their lives bc it's terrorizing for the patient with VSS as there's no known cure.

It makes me wonder how well BK was able to see in order to drive at night with VSS. When did his symptoms stop? Surely his VSS symptoms stopped before selecting the UoW 1500 miles from home.

My partner has it. She drives, and has done, safely, for over twenty years. She's had persistent, continuous visual symptoms since she was sixteen; she's 42 now. I'm not saying it doesn't have a variety of impacts on people, but it is possible to live, work, drive, have healthy relationships, etc. with VSS. Oh, and also have VSS and not kill people. I honestly don't see the defense or mitigation, here. If BK actually has VSS, it didn't cause=effect the death of four young people. Millions of people live with VSS, migraine auras, and hallucinations, on a daily basis, and don't creep into people's houses and stab them to death as they sleep.

It's not VSS you should fear, it's people who plan and carry out a crime like that. If this perpetrator happens to fit both those categories, that is, IMHO, a coincidence.

Very much my own opinion.

 

[NyxNY]

DBM. Messed up the formatting

 

[NyxNY]

The handprint...

Tightens up the timeline IMO.

I see this:

Xana goes downstairs ahead of 4am, to intercept her DD food quietly. The house was quiet, the slider was closed.

Xana eats in the stairwell. Watches TikTok....

Finishes her food, goes to the kitchen. The slider is open, no one is around. She closes the door. It's odd. She sets her food by the sink, washes her hands, then goes to her room to tell Ethan there's someone there ....

When BK goes to leave, the slider is closed. Handprint.

In all his script rehearsing, he never anticipated someone closing his door....

He either opens it or abandons it, leaving by way of the lowest level, from where he easily may have stripped down, to nudity or a bodysuit of some sort.

Years ago, a Midwest teen was abducted by a man with virtually no digital footprint and no criminal history. Saw the girl at a bus stop. His archive attempt, he shot his way in, decimating her parents at close range, abducted her leaving nary a trace of himself. Showered and shaved away all his body hair ahead of time. LE speeding toward the location of the 911 met the kidnapper on the highway, he pulled aside to let them pass, a courtesy that rendered him invisible to them. (She was only rescued months later because she escaped his lair.)

BK took measures IMO to reduce transfer, in both directions.

Those very measures will ultimately seal his fate.

JmO

Interesting! What case was that please? I’d really like to read up on that one.

 

[MyBelle]

I'm not seeing WSU police responding to a BOLO from MPD an event requiring a search warrant. WSU Officer reportedly ran a query for any white Elantra on campus.

Search for white Hyundai was key in Bryan Kohberger case

Police say cell phone records show Kohberger's phone near the murder scene at least 12 times before the night of the stabbings, starting in August.

www.cbsnews.com

"Tracking movements in public is an important technique when you haven't identified any suspects," said Mary D. Fan, a criminal law professor at the University of Washington. "You can see movements in public even if you don't have probable cause to get a warrant. We live in a time of ubiquitous cameras. This is a remarkable account of what piecing together that audiovisual data can do."
[..]

The car's first pass by the home was recorded at 3:29 a.m. on Nov. 13 — less than an hour before Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle and Ethan Chapin were stabbed to death in their rooms, Moscow Police Cpl. Brett Payne wrote in the affidavit.

The vehicle drove by twice more and was recorded a fourth time at 4:04 a.m., Payne wrote. It wasn't seen on the footage again until it sped away 16 minutes later.
[..]

On Nov. 25, the Moscow Police Department asked regional law enforcement to look for a white Elantra. Three nights later, a WSU police officer ran a query for any white Elantras on campus.

One came back as having a Pennsylvania license plate and being registered to Kohberger. Within half an hour, another campus officer located the vehicle parked at Kohberger's apartment complex. It came back as having Washington state tags. Five days after the killings, Kohberger had switched the registration from Pennsylvania, his home state, to Washington, the affidavit said.

Investigators now had a name to go on, and further investigation yielded more clues. Kohberger's driver's license described him as 6 feet tall and 185 pounds, and his license photo showed him to have bushy eyebrows — all details consistent with a description of the attacker given by a surviving roommate, the affidavit said.

More research revealed that Kohberger had been pulled over by a Latah County, Idaho, sheriff's deputy in August while driving the Elantra. He gave the deputy a cellphone number.

BBM. Thanks for that reminder! I think BK's photo/description on his driver's license was a big "a'Ha" moment for LE.

JMO

 

[Sheila Terranova]

I don't know about WSU but every single college (and other businesses) I've worked for have plain language in the parking contract, to the effect that if you intend to park on the campus and use the parking permit, you agree to be monitored by the police as to where and when you can park on the campus or for any other purpose relating to safety or law enforcement. There are good reasons for this - and it's true at every K-12 public school in my area as well.

Educational information is the only thing protected (for students only) on college campuses - but even so, whether or not a student attended or is attending and what degrees and certificates they have...is public.

There are neighborhoods in California that require parking permits too, and it's exactly the same agreement - to park in a particular place, you agree to display your license plate.

A license plate is public information, although in California, only LE and DMV have the ability to just run a plate. But anyone else could get the info from the DMV for a fee. It's not private. It's not meant to be private. Cars must be publicly designated and in a database that the state (and anyone else with money) can access.

IMO.

Same with ferries. I took the steamship authority for years driving past the sign that says they can search your car anytime. Then one day they did search my truck. Obviously I didn’t mind but was very surprising To me, despite having seen the sign for years.

 

[Boxer]

I'm not familiar with that phrase, so I googled, and the first hits are all actual NASA pages about coffee in space. I laughed.

Are you quoting something particular, or is it just a turn of phrase I haven't heard before today?

Yuban commercial 60s or 70s.
Just unrelated things.

The DNA is on the case that held the murder weapon but what, the defense wonders, about identifying the car early on as a similar car, doesn't that prove tunnel vision?


I

 

[gremlin444]

Interesting! What case was that please? I’d really like to read up on that one.

Jayme Closs, Wisconsin in 2018. Jake Patterson killed her parents and then kidnapped her.

 

[wary]

Interesting! What case was that please? I’d really like to read up on that one.

Jayme Closs kidnapped by Jake Patterson.

 

[Seattle1]

While I am unsure of the reasons why a juror may take this into consideration I certainly would bc I'd never heard of VSS until this case and VSS scares me. No one should have to live with VSS interrupting their lives bc it's terrorizing for the patient with VSS as there's no known cure.

It makes me wonder how well BK was able to see in order to drive at night with VSS. When did his symptoms stop? Surely his VSS symptoms stopped before selecting the UoW 1500 miles from home.

^^bbm

The same can be said of Migraines and research shows many drugs used to treat/manage migraines have been used successfully to treat VSS. Linked the report up-thread.

 

[MyBelle]

Yuban commercial 60s or 70s.
Just unrelated things.

The DNA is on the case that held the murder weapon but what, the defense wonders, about identifying the car early on as a similar car, doesn't that prove tunnel vision?


I

BBM. All it proves is that LE followed a lead that didn't pan out. That's normal in any criminal investigation.

JMO

 

[maskedwoman]

While I am unsure of the reasons why a juror may take this into consideration I certainly would bc I'd never heard of VSS until this case and VSS scares me. No one should have to live with VSS interrupting their lives bc it's terrorizing for the patient with VSS as there's no known cure.

It makes me wonder how well BK was able to see in order to drive at night with VSS. When did his symptoms stop? Surely his VSS symptoms stopped before selecting the UoW 1500 miles from home.

I'm curious how you would take that into consideration. A lot of people have a disease with no known cure. MS, MD, ALS, Fibromyalgia, some kinds of cancer, Parkinson's Disease, Alzheimers, Huntington Disease. Only a few affect brain function and behavior to the point that it could be a mitigating factor and/or could actually prevent the person from going to trial at all.

 

[Nila Aella]

• 06/30/2023 Order on Defendants Motion to Compel Discovery

 

[Seattle1]

• 06/30/2023 Order on Defendants Motion to Compel Discovery

Thanks for linking the update @Nila Aella.

The subject Order goes to the defense Motion of March 23 seeking training records of three specific officers. When the state did not comply with the request by May 4, the defense filed a Motion to Compel, and oral arguments were heard on June 27.

(The State's reason for opposing the defense's request was because the officers were not expected to be called as witnesses at trial).

In granting the defense's Motion to Compel, the Court Ordered the evidence provided to the defense no later than July 14.

In support of the ruling, the Court provided the following:

Here, the three officers’ training records requested by the defense are “material to the preparation of the defense” and Kohberger has established “substantial need” for the material in the preparation of his case.

First, the defense adequately articulated the role each of these officers played in interviewing witnesses and finding and collecting potential evidence.

Second, the training records of these officers are potentially relevant to suppression issue, like in Cohagan, or to challenge the credibility of the officers and the reliability of their methods similar to the training records of canine officers.

Other potential uses for the training records include to help prepare the defense for examination or cross-examination of the officers at trial, or to help establish or challenge foundation for the admissibility of evidence gathered by those officers at trial.