4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90

[NyxNY]

It looks like Logsdon does intend to take it to the Idaho Supreme Court, so we will see how it goes one way or the other. It is possible this has never been challenged before. JJ seemed to think Logsdon's idea was worthy of a higher court and I think the Idaho Supreme Court may as well.

BBM

I don't think that JJJ necessarily thought Logsdon's idea was a worthy one--but rather there wasn't anything JJJ could do about it, and Logsdon would need to go to a higher court to fight it.

 

[arielilane]

New: Just ahead of #Idaho4 hearing later this morning, judge in the #BryanKohberger murder case agreed the defense should receive some DNA (investigative genetic genealogy – IGG) records in discovery. But he may restrict others at the hearing. Story here.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720112616004108362

 

[arielilane]

In fact, as this story and past ones note, #Idaho prosecutors say IGG was not used to secure any warrants, including for the arrest of #BryanKohberger.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720123610784997687

 

[arielilane]

I’m in the courtroom for the Bryan Kohberger scheduling hearing involving the investigative genetic genealogy review.Judge is in here.Appears everyone else will be attending on Zoom.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720130087407006056

 

[arielilane]

Kohberger prosecutor says they have asked the FBI for all the genetic genealogy info. It’s a long process that has to go through the Department of Justice, Could take a month he says.

Kohberger prosecutor explaining a private lab also worked on the genetic genealogy. There are multiple reports they are trying to get from the private lab and the FBI. Defense says “it has been a long road for us to get information.”

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720133273605877946

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720133853963227642

 

[tlcya]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720132890825273505

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720133273605877946

 

[arielilane]

Kohberger judge says he would prefer to review all the DNA information at the same time. He is setting a deadline for all the DNA information to be submitted to the court by Dec 1.He is saying there could be another delay. Getting the reports from the FBI seems to be the issue.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720135241325785397

 

[arielilane]

A reminder why the genetic genealogy DNA stuff is so important in the Kohberger case — it’s how they narrowed down the suspect profile to Kohberger.It’s massively important.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720136194422636751

 

[arielilane]

The big concern with getting these genetic genealogy reports is family trees and names of people totally unrelated to the Kohberger investigation could be contained.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720136975406305725

 

[10ofRods]

The big concern with getting these genetic genealogy reports is family trees and names of people totally unrelated to the Kohberger investigation could be contained.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720136975406305725

I'd say *all* of the results are entirely unrelated to the investigation of the Idaho murders. But the results would include people closely related to Kohberger (both his father and his mother's lines).

Sounds like the Judge is working out a kind of compromise, in which the Defense gets to see...the names? But is not promising to allow the same information into evidence.

Have I got that right?

 

[arielilane]

Kohberger hearing just ended.Bottom line — new deadline is Dec 1 for state to handover investigative genetic genealogy/DNA info to the judge.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720139296613728398

I’m in the courtroom for the Bryan Kohberger scheduling hearing involving the investigative genetic genealogy review.Judge is in here.Appears everyone else will be attending on Zoom.


Kohberger prosecutor says they have asked the FBI for all the genetic genealogy info. It’s a long process that has to go through the Department of Justice, Could take a month he says.


Kohberger prosecutor explaining a private lab also worked on the genetic genealogy. There are multiple reports they are trying to get from the private lab and the FBI. Defense says “it has been a long road for us to get information.”


Kohberger judge says he would prefer to review all the DNA information at the same time. He is setting a deadline for all the DNA information to be submitted to the court by Dec 1.He is saying there could be another delay. Getting the reports from the FBI seems to be the issue.

A reminder why the genetic genealogy DNA stuff is so important in the Kohberger case — it’s how they narrowed down the suspect profile to Kohberger.It’s massively important.


The big concern with getting these genetic genealogy reports is family trees and names of people totally unrelated to the Kohberger investigation could be contained.

Kohberger hearing just ended. Bottom line — new deadline is Dec 1 for state to handover investigative genetic genealogy/DNA info to the judge.

https://twitter.com/BrianEntin

 

[Balthazar]

I am trying to follow along, but have not read every post. Are you saying that probable cause has been the law for over 100 years (instead of BARD)? This is a really common standard nationwide,

It is just the opposite in Idaho. (See the post by Nila Aella on this showing the exact wording which is more similar to BARD than PC - this post is currently on Page 9 #163.)

How did it become an issue? And more important to me, actually, is *when* did it become an issue? It's been standard in British and American common law (and other common law notions have been discarded).

Because in the 1920's prosecutors in Idaho allegedly switched from what is like BARD to PC without a change in Idaho criminal law in regards to the standard of proof for an Idaho Grand Jury.

For it to be an issue, there have to be various parties arrayed both in favor of probable cause as the standard (and I think that goes back more than 100) as well as people on the other side (and possibly in other positions). Can you point me to other cases where this has been an issue? And is it just Idaho that you believe has to change its laws? Why would the new law not also be challenged? I doubt that there has ever been a "final end" to any legal issue...since Roman times and good records have been kept. Anyway, what would the new law look like and who in the Idaho legislature is in favor of this law? It's rare that laws change because of action in a lawsuit, but sometimes they do (I can think of one example, but it's very narrow and specific).

Nila Aella mentioned some of these cases in her post.

Are there actual bills on this issue in the Idaho legislature? (Not asking just you - but maybe some of our locals might know). My curiosity is about what you think the shape of this new law would be. I see what you're saying about "fixing" the issue by a new law - that would indeed work better than using mere legal precedent and appeals.

IMO.

IMO , I wonder if this could be a civil rights issue if Idaho Grand Juries operating in the same timeframe were given different instructions as to what is the standard for an indictment? IMO, the Idaho Supreme Court should clarify the law one way or the other.

(I have been swamped with work since Oct 30, so could not reply sooner. However I think Nila Aella's posts have been excellent in regards to this subject.)

All JMO, IMOO.

 

[Swansee]

In fact, as this story and past ones note, #Idaho prosecutors say IGG was not used to secure any warrants, including for the arrest of #BryanKohberger.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720123610784997687

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but this doesn't sound right.
How did they get to BK if not thanks to the IGG? The PCA itself states that the IGG was key. How can the prosecution now say it wasn't used to secure any warrants? This makes no sense to me.

 

[Megnut]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but this doesn't sound right.
How did they get to BK if not thanks to the IGG? The PCA itself states that the IGG was key. How can the prosecution now say it wasn't used to secure any warrants? This makes no sense to me.

IIRC it was the wording of the AA itself, that they were seeking PC but not resulting from the IGG data. All the other inclusions.

MOO

 

[Jurisprudence]

Kohberger prosecutor says they have asked the FBI for all the genetic genealogy info. It’s a long process that has to go through the Department of Justice, Could take a month he says.

Kohberger prosecutor explaining a private lab also worked on the genetic genealogy. There are multiple reports they are trying to get from the private lab and the FBI. Defense says “it has been a long road for us to get information.”

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720133273605877946

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720133853963227642

Not only a long process but an impossible one in some respects. The state told the court in their response that the info was viewed through the portal and not downloaded. I'm sure they have notes somewhere but sheesh. Per DOJ policy once he was in custody the SNP profile had to be removed. It's no longer there to access even if they wanted to access it. It would have to be done all over again - for evidence that is not admissible and that wasn't used as a basis for pc. jmo
Page 6

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/061623+States+Motion+for+Protective+Order.pdf

 

[Jurisprudence]

Yes, that is how I understood it too. Essentially BARD, but even if not BARD "warrant a conviction" is more than just "probable cause".

The Judge did say he was bound by the Supreme Court and 3 or 4 District Court decisons and that the issue needs to be settled by a higher court.

MOO

??? JJ specifically made reference to Idaho R. Crim. P. 6.5 which expressly states:

If the grand jury finds, after evidence has been presented to it, that an offense has been committed and that there is probable cause to believe that the accused committed it, the jury ought to find an indictment. Probable cause exists when the grand jury has before it evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe an offense has been committed and that the accused party has probably committed the offense.

Which Supreme Court case held that the words "warrant a conviction" means a higher burden than pc but a lower burden than beyond a reasonable doubt must be established to indict? Is it still current and good law?

TIA

Rule 6.5 - Indictment, Idaho R. Crim. P. 6.5 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Rule 6.5 - Indictment, Idaho R. Crim. P. 6.5, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

 

[Jurisprudence]

A reminder why the genetic genealogy DNA stuff is so important in the Kohberger case — it’s how they narrowed down the suspect profile to Kohberger.It’s massively important.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1720136194422636751

I agree with BE that it is massively important however, it's not admissible and it's generally not subject to discovery for several reasons chief among them being it's a valuable tool that they don't want to lose by people pulling out which is exactly what will happen if LE is ordered to "out" relatives in a family tree for which a defendant has no 4th amendment privacy interest in. BK has no right to invade the privacy of a cousin, an uncle, or even his father.

jmo

 

[Jurisprudence]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but this doesn't sound right.
How did they get to BK if not thanks to the IGG? The PCA itself states that the IGG was key. How can the prosecution now say it wasn't used to secure any warrants? This makes no sense to me.

@10ofRods can probably answer this better but here's my take. The IGG was merely a tool that assisted them in compiling a family tree. It wasn't the basis for his arrest. Remember, they had no idea who he was at that early stage so BK's profile was likely entered as a John Doe. They built out the family tree; it led to his family. A collection of trash at the curb matched 50%ish (@10ofRods ???) to a person highly statistically probable to be the perp's biological father. That, together with the other evidence by this time (the car, and the video, and the cell phone data, etc.) all combined to provide sufficient pc to swear out an arrest warrant. On arrest they took a buccal swab of BK's DNA and then compared his direct DNA to that found on the sheath. It was a match (somewhere in the octillions I think). The IGG is a tool. Similar to a lie detector. They can't arrest on a lie detector, they can't admit lie detector results into evidence.

jmo

 

[schooling]

I still can’t imagine any sort of reasonable remedy that would come out of the IGG ‘issue’.

I have the chances at 0.00000001% that the judge sees something wrong with it. So in that unlikely case does he throw it out? If he throws it out then what? It’s completely separate from the locally pulled ‘John Doe’ full profile entered into CODIS (shout out to @Jurisprudence as I now have a way to refer to the local profile).

So what’s the recourse? Prosecutors have to pretend to forget all about BK? Or does BK now have immunity forever?

Because I’m pretty sure that they’d still have plenty of probable cause (car, cell, etc) to turn around and just do it all over again. He drove a matching car, matched eye witness testimony and would be up for investigation regardless of IGG. And since the local profile is unchallenged and untainted they’d still get to an eventual match on the John Doe profile.

Just like if the GJ indictment was thrown out they just turn around and do it the good old fashioned way.

This is all a complete waste of time. Everything being challenged is either inconsequential or has no potential remedy that helps BK.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I still can’t imagine any sort of reasonable remedy that would come out of the IGG ‘issue’.

I have the chances at 0.00000001% that the judge sees something wrong with it. So in that unlikely case does he throw it out? If he throws it out then what? It’s completely separate from the locally pulled ‘John Doe’ full profile entered into CODIS (shout out to @Jurisprudence as I now have a way to refer to the local profile).

So what’s the recourse? Prosecutors have to pretend to forget all about BK? Or does BK now have immunity forever?

Because I’m pretty sure that they’d still have plenty of probable cause (car, cell, etc) to turn around and just do it all over again. And since the local profile is unchallenged and untainted they’d still get to an eventual match on the John Doe profile.

Just like if the GJ indictment was thrown out they just turn around and do it the good old fashioned way.

This is all a complete waste of time. Everything being challenged is either inconsequential or has no potential remedy that helps BK.

I'm not fully convinced they can get a conviction even with the DNA evidence, let alone if it's thrown out.

That's not a statement on his guilt or innocence. It's an opinion on the case.

MOO.