4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90

[10ofRods]

I'm watching the full video of today's hearing.

What I'm hearing is that there are 2 SNP profiles starting at about 8:20. One from the FBI and one from the private lab. The private lab is the original SNP. The SNP that FBI has is different from the SNP from the private lab and the reason given for that is because once the original SNP is sent to a GG company their database software altered the SNP to meet the requirements of the criteria of their search engine? And at 9:23, there are differences throughout the length of the two SNPs.

I would like to know what the reliability is of the GG company's database software in altering SNPs and how often they check the reliability.

Do you understand what an SNP profile is and why there would be multiple profiles? (It's a profile, an algorithm). I have tried to explain it several times on these threads, but will do so again if someone asks. If you know what it means, then it's no surprise that the two profiles are different - they have to be. I assume you're just stating the facts rather than asking a question.

Where are you getting the idea that SNP's are ALTERED? That's not what an SNP does or is. There is no alteration to the physical DNA as the SNP profile is just a computer program. It is something that INSPECTS the full profile derived from the ISL.

Each criminal lab has its own SNP profile algorithm - I have given the contrast between the GG company and the FBI several times - they are intended for two different purposes and are radically different in formation.

Step one: (done by forensic geneticists)

Find DNA on sheath and run it through a DNA sequencer, resulting in ONE long piece of data (enormously large) which when there is sufficient DNA. Most humans share 99% of their actual codon sequences with other humans. At many points in the genome, we all have the same allele (and some of those alleles are identical to those of other mammals - and some are even the same as in the banana genome - in short, those alleles control bio-functioning of life on Planet Earth).

So, scientists all over the world study the smaller set of alleles where there is polymorphism. An SNP is a single nucleotide polymorphism. That means 1) there are several alleles and 2) they vary from each other by as little as 1 nucleotide (nucleotides are the A,T,C,G pattern we see in the report of any living thing's DNA).

If you want to identify someone in GG, you use a far greater number of SNP's locations in the genome (no one touches the genes - they are just looking at digital reports of SNP's).

Nothing about this process alters the original sequencing of the DNA. It's just a viewer to try and find out the variations that characterize individuals. There's no point (at all) in spending enormous scientific time and resources on studying the areas of the genome where we are all alike.

To identify individuals, we have to study the parts of the long long nucleotide map where there is variation, where we are individually different.

FBI uses a very small number of SNP's across a population of felons because they want to be able to process hundreds of thousands of submitted FULL DNA DIGITAL FILES quickly and efficiently and, yes, cheaply. They have chosen each SNP after large committees of geneticists, medical doctors and anthropologists have weighed in. Hits are always partial. They lead to suspects. The suspects have their complete DNA files stored within the system - but the full run of data would be enormously bulky to study and it will all come down to polymorphisms in the end - so why not start there? If we're trying to find where we put our keys, we look in certain places - we don't start with Google satellite.

Othram uses WAY more SNP's than the FBI because they are trying to build and illustrate the human family tree (as are Ancestry and 23andme). And that's what they do. Each of these services has a proprietary SNP algorithm. Everyone is looking at the same DNA - just through different lenses, so to speak.

Sorry if this is unnecessary to the discussion - but hopefully we can all see why the Defense might want to inspect the algorithms. I do not see what the legal value of this inspection might be, but, being the Defense, they want everything they can get. It's likely that they are not fully understanding the system, either - and that the jury will hear dualing explainers. But the explainer to trust is someone in academia, with absolutely no ax to grind and is just going to walk the jury through the process.

If I were that explainer, I'd start with something visual, like Parabon. Parabon is a leading innovator and expert in SNP analysis that leads to information about how people look. Obviously, as humans, we distinguish each other by faces and Parabon has kept up with the worldwide research about which locii in the genome are related to facial structure and what the various known alleles are (the total number of alleles for any of these locii is not known or complete - it's ongoing work and their reconstructions continually get better).

If you were to submit your own DNA to Parabon, they'd use their recipe of SNP's to show you what you look like, and it will be eerily close - but not exact, as there are developmental factors involved post-conception.

https://www.parabon-nanolabs.com/

(I just read further in the thread and it's clear we should try and discuss this - this is a very important technical point and I can try and explain a different way - feel free to ask questions).

 

[Odeto BJ]

J-Cubed is doing a lot to ensure that the upcoming trial is the only trial and drilling into the IGG process for materials that can be reviewed by the defense and particularly, forwarding select portions to the Defense will be precedent setting I believe.

If the result of his inspections is nothing gets forwarded, LE will have no specific reason to change how the process is currently handled and documented (largely it is undocumented).... Should the judge forward selected docs or data to the Defense it will certainly change how LE and the various labs treat at least the record keeping and possibly even the algorithms that lead to the production of a family tree. That situation leads directly to confirmation/certification of the algorithms themselves, some portions of which are in the hands of private labs and some portions that belong to the corporations that own the web sites. The public and vital records that form portion of the genealogical construct would themselves be subject to challenge, all the way down to gravestones, family bibles, the handwriting of county clerks and similar.

Sounds like a very large can of worms.....

I believe that as long as the product is simply a lead for LE to pursue, there is no cause to treat the notations and other product like personal property seized during a warrantless search. I give credit to Judge Judge for trying to keep the trial impervious to appeals based on error and certainly if the defense can develop fresh, relevant, and exonerating evidence as a result than justice will have been served. In the meantime the impetus and ripple effect on future trials seems to have no limit.

IANAL and MOO and etc ad nauseum

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Do you understand what an SNP profile is and why there would be multiple profiles? (It's a profile, an algorithm). I have tried to explain it several times on these threads, but will do so again if someone asks. If you know what it means, then it's no surprise that the two profiles are different - they have to be. I assume you're just stating the facts rather than asking a question.

Where are you getting the idea that SNP's are ALTERED? That's not what an SNP does or is. There is no alteration to the physical DNA as the SNP profile is just a computer program. It is something that INSPECTS the full profile derived from the ISL.

Each criminal lab has its own SNP profile algorithm - I have given the contrast between the GG company and the FBI several times - they are intended for two different purposes and are radically different in formation.

Step one: (done by forensic geneticists)

Find DNA on sheath and run it through a DNA sequencer, resulting in ONE long piece of data (enormously large) which when there is sufficient DNA. Most humans share 99% of their actual codon sequences with other humans. At many points in the genome, we all have the same allele (and some of those alleles are identical to those of other mammals - and some are even the same as in the banana genome - in short, those alleles control bio-functioning of life on Planet Earth).

So, scientists all over the world study the smaller set of alleles where there is polymorphism. An SNP is a single nucleotide polymorphism. That means 1) there are several alleles and 2) they vary from each other by as little as 1 nucleotide (nucleotides are the A,T,C,G pattern we see in the report of any living thing's DNA).

If you want to identify someone in GG, you use a far greater number of SNP's locations in the genome (no one touches the genes - they are just looking at digital reports of SNP's).

Nothing about this process alters the original sequencing of the DNA. It's just a viewer to try and find out the variations that characterize individuals. There's no point (at all) in spending enormous scientific time and resources on studying the areas of the genome where we are all alike.

To identify individuals, we have to study the parts of the long long nucleotide map where there is variation, where we are individually different.

FBI uses a very small number of SNP's across a population of felons because they want to be able to process hundreds of thousands of submitted FULL DNA DIGITAL FILES quickly and efficiently and, yes, cheaply. They have chosen each SNP after large committees of geneticists, medical doctors and anthropologists have weighed in. Hits are always partial. They lead to suspects. The suspects have their complete DNA files stored within the system - but the full run of data would be enormously bulky to study and it will all come down to polymorphisms in the end - so why not start there? If we're trying to find where we put our keys, we look in certain places - we don't start with Google satellite.

Othram uses WAY more SNP's than the FBI because they are trying to build and illustrate the human family tree (as are Ancestry and 23andme). And that's what they do. Each of these services has a proprietary SNP algorithm. Everyone is looking at the same DNA - just through different lenses, so to speak.

Sorry if this is unnecessary to the discussion - but hopefully we can all see why the Defense might want to inspect the algorithms. I do not see what the legal value of this inspection might be, but, being the Defense, they want everything they can get. It's likely that they are not fully understanding the system, either - and that the jury will hear dualing explainers. But the explainer to trust is someone in academia, with absolutely no ax to grind and is just going to walk the jury through the process.

If I were that explainer, I'd start with something visual, like Parabon. Parabon is a leading innovator and expert in SNP analysis that leads to information about how people look. Obviously, as humans, we distinguish each other by faces and Parabon has kept up with the worldwide research about which locii in the genome are related to facial structure and what the various known alleles are (the total number of alleles for any of these locii is not known or complete - it's ongoing work and their reconstructions continually get better).

If you were to submit your own DNA to Parabon, they'd use their recipe of SNP's to show you what you look like, and it will be eerily close - but not exact, as there are developmental factors involved post-conception.

https://www.parabon-nanolabs.com/

(I just read further in the thread and it's clear we should try and discuss this - this is a very important technical point and I can try and explain a different way - feel free to ask questions).

As always, deep gratitude for your explanation! I always better cement what I think I understand each time you have the extraordinary patience to share your knowledge to us!

 

[Odeto BJ]

I did not see 10ofRods post before I posted 262. Note that we are NOT talking about the same algorithms but there is an interesting point here: If a suspect were reported by an informant as looking like a Parabon image, would that lead to Parabons algorithms need to be affirmed? They have a large proportion of staff writing code every day....
And situationally at trial, how far does an identification based on a Parabon image deviate from, an ID from an image produced by a sketch artist whose input is from a witness?
The fun continues....MOO and IANAL

 

[10ofRods]

I did not see 10ofRods post before I posted 262. Note that we are NOT talking about the same algorithms but there is an interesting point here: If a suspect were reported by an informant as looking like a Parabon image, would that lead to Parabons algorithms need to be affirmed? They have a large proportion of staff writing code every day....
And situationally at trial, how far does an identification based on a Parabon image deviate from, an ID from an image produced by a sketch artist whose input is from a witness?
The fun continues....MOO and IANAL

Good questions. I would imagine that Parabon could update its algorithm in several different ways, including use of a photograph that is tied to a particular individual's DNA.

In general, what's been happening is that we (anthropologists in particular) have been trying to figure out ALL the locii involved in the human face. The thing is, each gene works in combination with (many) other genes - usually. So there are probably at least 3 genes involved in giving me my observed nose shape (and I think in my case, those three genes are all on the same chromosome - and are dominant). In addition, there are many other genes involved in creating the skin on the nose, the cartilege, the bone, the hair, etc. Each of those traits has an unknown number of genes associated with them - but at least ONE locii is known for each of them (usually more like 10).

Here's a simplified index of eye types that's been in use in this research for a long time:


Each of those accesses the same locations (addresses;loci) in the individual's genome - at which there's a ton of variation. This is about eye shape - but there's also the color of the white of the eye, and of course, the color of the iris.

These are NOT all the variations - more are found all the time. Add in the other parts of the face with exponents based on these charts and the number of possible faces (and genetic variations) is huge. New mutations occur at a rate known to scientists and we are constantly looking for more alleles at each address. New loci have not been found for quite some time - only new alleles (which are what give the polymorphisms - different shapes/types of body parts).

Scan of Human Genome Reveals No New Loci Under Ancient Balancing Selection

There has been much speculation as to what role balancing selection has played in evolution. In an attempt to identify regions, such as HLA, at which polymorphism has been maintained in the human population for millions of years, we scanned the human ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The above article outlines the method of the SNP consortium - run by the National Institutes of Health.

There are about 20,000 loci in the human genome (and to a lay person, that's what people usually mean when they say "genes" - they mean the slot into which the gene goes plus the information in the slot - and we have TWO genes for each slot. The two can be the same (homozygous) or they can be different (heterozygous).

The goal is to find ALL of the alleles (variations that can go in a slot) so that SNP's can be studied. We can deduce immense amounts of personally valuable information about human individuals by looking only at the SNP's (their potential longevity, tendency toward certain diseases, their approximate height, their nose shape, their eye shape, their head shape - on and on and on). But new variations show up all the time and are found, recorded and published. Sites like Parabon and Othram follow that research closely.

TMI???

 

[Balthazar]

Do you understand what an SNP profile is and why there would be multiple profiles? (It's a profile, an algorithm). I have tried to explain it several times on these threads, but will do so again if someone asks. If you know what it means, then it's no surprise that the two profiles are different - they have to be. I assume you're just stating the facts rather than asking a question.

Where are you getting the idea that SNP's are ALTERED? That's not what an SNP does or is. There is no alteration to the physical DNA as the SNP profile is just a computer program. It is something that INSPECTS the full profile derived from the ISL

Each criminal lab has its own SNP profile algorithm - I have given the contrast between the GG company and the FBI several times - they are intended for two different purposes and are radically different in formation.

Step one: (done by forensic geneticists)

Find DNA on sheath and run it through a DNA sequencer, resulting in ONE long piece of data (enormously large) which when there is sufficient DNA. Most humans share 99% of their actual codon sequences with other humans. At many points in the genome, we all have the same allele (and some of those alleles are identical to those of other mammals - and some are even the same as in the banana genome - in short, those alleles control bio-functioning of life on Planet Earth).

So, scientists all over the world study the smaller set of alleles where there is polymorphism. An SNP is a single nucleotide polymorphism. That means 1) there are several alleles and 2) they vary from each other by as little as 1 nucleotide (nucleotides are the A,T,C,G pattern we see in the report of any living thing's DNA).

If you want to identify someone in GG, you use a far greater number of SNP's locations in the genome (no one touches the genes - they are just looking at digital reports of SNP's).

Nothing about this process alters the original sequencing of the DNA. It's just a viewer to try and find out the variations that characterize individuals. There's no point (at all) in spending enormous scientific time and resources on studying the areas of the genome where we are all alike.

To identify individuals, we have to study the parts of the long long nucleotide map where there is variation, where we are individually different.

FBI uses a very small number of SNP's across a population of felons because they want to be able to process hundreds of thousands of submitted FULL DNA DIGITAL FILES quickly and efficiently and, yes, cheaply. They have chosen each SNP after large committees of geneticists, medical doctors and anthropologists have weighed in. Hits are always partial. They lead to suspects. The suspects have their complete DNA files stored within the system - but the full run of data would be enormously bulky to study and it will all come down to polymorphisms in the end - so why not start there? If we're trying to find where we put our keys, we look in certain places - we don't start with Google satellite.

Othram uses WAY more SNP's than the FBI because they are trying to build and illustrate the human family tree (as are Ancestry and 23andme). And that's what they do. Each of these services has a proprietary SNP algorithm. Everyone is looking at the same DNA - just through different lenses, so to speak.

Sorry if this is unnecessary to the discussion - but hopefully we can all see why the Defense might want to inspect the algorithms. I do not see what the legal value of this inspection might be, but, being the Defense, they want everything they can get. It's likely that they are not fully understanding the system, either - and that the jury will hear dualing explainers. But the explainer to trust is someone in academia, with absolutely no ax to grind and is just going to walk the jury through the process.

If I were that explainer, I'd start with something visual, like Parabon. Parabon is a leading innovator and expert in SNP analysis that leads to information about how people look. Obviously, as humans, we distinguish each other by faces and Parabon has kept up with the worldwide research about which locii in the genome are related to facial structure and what the various known alleles are (the total number of alleles for any of these locii is not known or complete - it's ongoing work and their reconstructions continually get better).

If you were to submit your own DNA to Parabon, they'd use their recipe of SNP's to show you what you look like, and it will be eerily close - but not exact, as there are developmental factors involved post-conception.

https://www.parabon-nanolabs.com/

(I just read further in the thread and it's clear we should try and discuss this - this is a very important technical point and I can try and explain a different way - feel free to ask questions).

I was simply stating what Mr. Thompson said in the hearing yesterday - that the SNP was altered - Mr. Thompson's words, not mine, which were confirmed as correct by his DNA expert. Please watch the video for more information.

 

[Cool Cats]

I wonder if the State was doing a crime scene reenactment/animation of some scale? One of the biggest arguments of BK proponents has been "there is no way he had enough time" to commit the murders. I think it would key if the State shows just how they purpose the killings may have happened in real time.

MOO

The FBI is using

Crime scene analysis with the FARO Focus 3D Laser Scanner​

Normally this is done at the time the crime scene is discovered - not a year later! A Case I followed used the FARO immediately.

FBI at King Road house in Moscow for further investigation

MOSCOW, ID. -- The FBI is currently at the King Road house where four University of Idaho students were murdered last year.

www.kxly.com

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

The FBI is using

Crime scene analysis with the FARO Focus 3D Laser Scanner​

Normally this is done at the time the crime scene is discovered - not a year later! A Case I followed used the FARO immediately.

FBI at King Road house in Moscow for further investigation

MOSCOW, ID. -- The FBI is currently at the King Road house where four University of Idaho students were murdered last year.

www.kxly.com

We know the initial investigation included 4,000 +/- crime scene photographs as well as multiple three-dimensional scans of the residence, so I’m quite curious about the differences between then & now.

 

[Cool Cats]

We know the initial investigation included 4,000 +/- crime scene photographs as well as multiple three-dimensional scans of the residence, so I’m quite curious about the differences between then & now.

?
Makes zero sense to me. They wouldn't have had time to do this if his speedy trial hadn't been waived.

FARO can scan entire areas around homes and with "digital" paper attached to a boulder in the yard, and attached all around the exterior of the King Rd house, I bet they are gathering more outside visual evidence, for one.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

?
Makes zero sense to me. They wouldn't have had time to do this if his speedy trial hadn't been waived.

FARO can scan entire areas around homes and with "digital" paper attached to a boulder in the yard, and attached all around the exterior of the King Rd house, I bet they are gathering more outside visual evidence, for one.

Ahh — that would make sense! I think conveying the terrain could be crucial.

I’m also interested in the audio evidence aspect. I know someone who heard different tones being sounded at various volumes during those two days & assumed that was also part of the recent effort, but thanks to the gag order, I guess I’ll need to continue practicing patience until Trial Time.

 

[Cool Cats]

Ahh — that would make sense! I think conveying the terrain could be crucial.

I’m also interested in the audio evidence aspect. I know someone who heard different tones being sounded at various volumes during those two days & assumed that was also part of the recent effort, but thanks to the gag order, I guess I’ll need to continue practicing patience until Trial Time.

Different tones?

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Different tones?

They sounded like different tones & varying volumes to me over the phone. I could also hear a drone. But also over the phone, not in person.

 

[schooling]

The FBI is using

Crime scene analysis with the FARO Focus 3D Laser Scanner​

Normally this is done at the time the crime scene is discovered - not a year later! A Case I followed used the FARO immediately.

FBI at King Road house in Moscow for further investigation

MOSCOW, ID. -- The FBI is currently at the King Road house where four University of Idaho students were murdered last year.

www.kxly.com

I know I wasn’t imagining this…

Idaho killings update: New tech aids as suspect search continues

Local detectives, state police officers and federal agents are going through evidence in an effort to find the killer of four college students.

www.newsnationnow.com

This is the only article I found (admittedly didn’t try very hard). But I remember multiple news outlets citing the use of FARO last year. With the article above, though light on details, being amongst them. I remember some even going as far as identifying a suitcase an investigator brought inside the house as one that would contain a FARO device.

So I’m wondering if this is in addition to that first scan or if the media got it wrong the first time.

Update: come to think of it getting a scan of the house completely empty might also be a good idea, in addition to a first scan.

 

[Jurisprudence]

I'm watching the full video of today's hearing.

What I'm hearing is that there are 2 SNP profiles starting at about 8:20. One from the FBI and one from the private lab. The private lab is the original SNP. The SNP that FBI has is different from the SNP from the private lab and the reason given for that is because once the original SNP is sent to a GG company their database software altered the SNP to meet the requirements of the criteria of their search engine? And at 9:23, there are differences throughout the length of the two SNPs.

I would like to know what the reliability is of the GG company's database software in altering SNPs and how often they check the reliability.

I heard that too and was surprised. But I'm still inclined to lean with @schooling. What difference will this make at the end of the day? His DNA was matched to the sheath. The family tree was nothing more than a lead. No arrest warrant was based on it. There is no fruit of the poisonous tree from a LE investigative lead akin to the tool of a lie detector test imo. This is not to say the defense won't make an argument. I am all but certain they will. We've been witnessing it since the beginning.


jmo

 

[Balthazar]

We know the initial investigation included 4,000 +/- crime scene photographs as well as multiple three-dimensional scans of the residence, so I’m quite curious about the differences between then & now.

From what I understand FARO Focus Core was used originally and this time they used FARO Focus Premium. This explains how FARO Focus Premium is different:

https://www.faro.com/en/Resource-Library/Video/The-New-Focus-Premium-Laser-Scanner-and-Stream-Mobile-App

 

[Jurisprudence]

I wonder if the State was doing a crime scene reenactment/animation of some scale? One of the biggest arguments of BK proponents has been "there is no way he had enough time" to commit the murders. I think it would key if the State shows just how they purpose the killings may have happened in real time.

MOO

"Starting Tuesday, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) will be at the house on King Road documenting their findings. This is being done so investigators can construct visual and audio exhibits, as well as a physical model of the home ... The university said the FBI plans to be at the house through Wednesday."

'Telling the story of what appeared to happen' | FBI documenting King Road house in Moscow to create visual, audio exhibits

Since the murder suspect's trial has been delayed indefinitely, the FBI is now using the extra time to gather its own information, like measurements and pictures.

www.krem.com

 

[Jurisprudence]

We know the initial investigation included 4,000 +/- crime scene photographs as well as multiple three-dimensional scans of the residence, so I’m quite curious about the differences between then & now.

They are saying that they took the 3D scans early in the investigation and left it at that because the trial was scheduled for October 2023. But now that he has waived his right to a speedy trial they are going in to take photos and measurements, etc to make additional exhibits for trial including a physical model. Physical models apparently take months to make and the time they needed for this (that did not exist before) now exists.
jmo

'Telling the story of what appeared to happen' | FBI documenting King Road house in Moscow to create visual, audio exhibits

Since the murder suspect's trial has been delayed indefinitely, the FBI is now using the extra time to gather its own information, like measurements and pictures.

www.krem.com

 

[Balthazar]

They sounded like different tones & varying volumes to me over the phone. I could also hear a drone. But also over the phone, not in person.

Were they tones or more like whistles? There are some strange sounds like that on the Linda Lane videos. It happens 3 or 4 times. It is a series of 3 to 4 whistle like sounds that start out high and loud and then descend in pitch and volume. I could be wrong, but I believe it is a bird in the Linda Lane videos or someone imitating a bird.

 

[Odeto BJ]

Good questions. I would imagine that Parabon could update its algorithm in several different ways, including use of a photograph that is tied to a particular individual's DNA.

Trimmed by me...Excellent information and a brief comment: a little off topic.
I have a good friend (now retired) who was the head of the actuarial department at a major insurance company. That industry is frankly drooling for extensive DNA databases to incorporate just about everybody so they can tier charge based on personal propensity for chronic diseases, heart conditions and such things as Alzeimers and ALS.

Having hit the driving age during the muscle car era: I'm confident I know where that leads and, dealing as it does with health costs and longevity, its frightening....

 

[maconrich]

Not to go backwards...never mind, I'm going to go backwards because this has been bothering me.

Does this recent fbi presence at and inside the house, not wearing protective gear or even masks, negate what Mr Thompson had stated (re the State not objecting to the house being demolished)?

(copy/paste)
Edited to add quote from the NYT's article:

"The county prosecutor, Bill Thompson, told the university that he also did not object, because the authorities did not think it would be needed for trial.

“The scene has been substantially altered from its condition at the time of the homicides including removal of relevant property and furnishings, removal of some structural items such as wallboard and flooring, and subjected to extensive chemical application creating a potential health hazard,” Mr. Thompson wrote in a separate email. “These are some of the reasons that we have concluded that a ‘jury view’ would not be appropriate.”

Should a Notorious Crime Scene Be Demolished Before Trial? (Published 2023)

Officials want to tear down the house where four Idaho college students were murdered last year, setting off a debate over preserving the scenes of mass violence.

www.nytimes.com

Original post: #728 July 7

4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #85

Right. For a trial, but we’re not at that phase, which is the point. IANAL, but IMOE & asking around to attorney friends throughout Idaho, we can’t remember another instance where a defendant in custody has been extended this special privilege pre-trial. That doesn’t mean it’s never happened...

www.websleuths.com

Edited to add: I'm not questioning Mr Thompson's integrity. I'm wondering more why esp the potential health hazards are no longer an issue.