4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #91

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Agree that some cases go to trial with a lot less evidence.
What is available to the public is only a fraction of what the D, P and JJJ are aware of.
MOO

PH and GJ are very different. The D wants a PH for those differences IMO.

Unlike a preliminary hearing held in court with the defense side present, the grand jury doesn't make its decision in the context of an adversary proceeding. Rather, it's a one-sided affair. Grand jurors see and hear only what prosecutors put before them.

Great comparison/history of GJ and PH. Pros and Cons. Viewpoints of P vs D on each. etc. 1974 review

The preliminary hearing is criticized by prosecutors on at least two grounds:first, that it provides the defense with too much information about the state's case without corresponding discovery by the state, and second, that the hearing rushes the state's investigation and preparation of its case against the defendant. The first argument involves the question of the merit of broad pretrial discovery and is therefore outside the scope of this commentary. The fallacy of the second point is obvious. If the prosecutor does not have in hand adequate evidence to establish probable cause within a reasonable time after arrest then the accused should not be detained. Nevertheless, the prosecutor does have at his disposal an alternative procedure that allows the defendant no discovery at all and requires less careful preparation than the adversary preliminary hearing. The prosecutor may simply obtain an indictment from the grand jury


Re: JJJ signaling. IMO the first signals will be the next two rulings (IGG and Motion to Dismiss the Indictment)

JMO: IMO: MOO
appreciate the links. always looking to learn more! i have a bachelors in social behavorial sciences with a focus on legal studies (law and it's impact on society), pre-law track, did well on my LSAT. Then I took the proverbial 'year off' between undergrad and law school and...you can see where this is going.

its always fun diving back into this stuff.
 
And it appears the IGG material was submitted to the court under seal yesterday:
Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest
View attachment 464931
Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest
Hmm.
Since the IGG stuff was clearly referenced as such in the In Camera Submission document of 12/01, then this 29/11 submission must be something else, right?
Speculation: I see two options.
It could be that the State wants to "forensically evaluate" something they found when the FBI returned to the house on Halloween, but if they found something new on 31/10 why wait a whole month to evaluate it? Wouldn't that have been done immediately?
Or, more likely IMO, this could be about the three extra DNA profiles which were originally found at the crime scene but not thoroughly tested, and which the State is now reluctantly handing over for full testing as requested by AT.
Wondering what others here think this could be.
 
Re: Defense focus

The D does not have all of the evidence yet.
10 supplemental discovery requests.
Motions to compel.
Hearings for the Judge to set deadlines.

IMO The Ds current focus is challenging the indictment and obtaining discovery.


The Defense doesn't have everything it claims is evidence. I believe that Judge Judge could rule that the personal information of the IGG Kohberger is not discoverable (work product, something like using a phone book to find someone - and then requiring that the phone company turn over all its records regarding that page in the directory). If the rest of it is FBI stuff, I do wonder how that will go.

Okay, that's not a good analogy, and I do wonder what the other 9 discovery requests are for. If the Defense can keep thinking up this sort of "discovery" request, this is going to be one long road to trial.

Regardless of what happens with the IGG "evidence," I don't think it would remotely exonerate BK.

IMO.
 
appreciate the links. always looking to learn more! i have a bachelors in social behavorial sciences with a focus on legal studies (law and it's impact on society), pre-law track, did well on my LSAT. Then I took the proverbial 'year off' between undergrad and law school and...you can see where this is going.

its always fun diving back into this stuff.

And it's fun hanging out with you and Nila as both of you dive in. I was pre-law too (worked 20 years as a paralegal and then legal consultant). I started law school, hated it, dropped out. But I do love the legal aspects of a case. I too am always looking to learn more - if we ever get to read Judge Judge's rulings in full (on these 10 matters plus the GJ indictment), I will be very glad. Maybe his ruling on the GJ is already published. I'm terrible at remembering which legal documents are available - and appreciate so much what you and Nila are doing for us.
 
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Dogpiled.
ICYMI (sorry if already linked)
Daily Mail, Nov. 26

Soc media pix of surviving roommate DM, at past sorority event & Halloween 2023.
Her Father "told author and private investigator J. Reuben Appelman that she was isolating herself, and playing video games to deal with the stress."
"Appelman told NewsNation: 'In the beginning weeks after those homicides, she was basically dogpiled on, on social media."
Plus a few more quotes.

I cannot imagine being in her young shoes.
 
Hmm.
Since the IGG stuff was clearly referenced as such in the In Camera Submission document of 12/01, then this 29/11 submission must be something else, right?
Speculation: I see two options.
It could be that the State wants to "forensically evaluate" something they found when the FBI returned to the house on Halloween, but if they found something new on 31/10 why wait a whole month to evaluate it? Wouldn't that have been done immediately?
Or, more likely IMO, this could be about the three extra DNA profiles which were originally found at the crime scene but not thoroughly tested, and which the State is now reluctantly handing over for full testing as requested by AT.
Wondering what others here think this could be.
Also wondering what it could be. Looks like evidence the State has already logged needing transfer for evaluation.
JMO

Reading the Order: This is the State requesting evidence transfer for forensic evaluation with no objection from the Defense. MOO

Based upon the State’s MOTION TO TEMPORARILY SEAL STIPULATION AND ORDER TO TRANSFER EVIDENCE FOR FORENSIC EVALUATION PENDING HEARING filed herein and no objection from defense counsel

 
Also wondering what it could be. Looks like evidence the State has already logged needing transfer for evaluation.
JMO

Reading the Order: This is the State requesting evidence transfer for forensic evaluation with no objection from the Defense. MOO

Based upon the State’s MOTION TO TEMPORARILY SEAL STIPULATION AND ORDER TO TRANSFER EVIDENCE FOR FORENSIC EVALUATION PENDING HEARING filed herein and no objection from defense counsel


It's a motion to seal their stipulation and the judge's order, no objection from defense pertains to sealing.
So from these documents we don't know who requested the transfer just that the prosecution wanted to seal the stipulation of the transfer and the related order and the defense didn't object to it.
 
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Hmm.
Since the IGG stuff was clearly referenced as such in the In Camera Submission document of 12/01, then this 29/11 submission must be something else, right?
Speculation: I see two options.
It could be that the State wants to "forensically evaluate" something they found when the FBI returned to the house on Halloween, but if they found something new on 31/10 why wait a whole month to evaluate it? Wouldn't that have been done immediately?
Or, more likely IMO, this could be about the three extra DNA profiles which were originally found at the crime scene but not thoroughly tested, and which the State is now reluctantly handing over for full testing as requested by AT.
Wondering what others here think this could be.

It depends on what the "something" was on Hallowe'en. Forensic investigation can be very slow. If special lab equipment is needed, it's a question of waiting in line (esp with the FBI). Let's just use a scenario that could occur (it would be a rare and unusual example if true, I'm just throwing it out there).

Let's say that the reason Ethan's autopsy took so long is that he had knife wounds to bones (whereas the other victims had mainly soft tissue wounds). His body was then sent for forensic MRI to see if any metal from the knife was present microscopically. They find evidence of metal, take further tissue samples, get spectometry from the metal. They contact KaBar to find out its proprietary formula and bingo! It's a match. So now, not possessing the murder weapon, they do know it was a KaBar knife; if they also have receipts for a purchase of a KaBar knife, this is really tightening up the case.

But what if there could be further microscopic evidence of this same metal recipe in...the mattress (which surely was taken into evidence) or the house itself (the microscopic remnants of blood in the floor and underlayment of Xana's bedroom)? It would be so hard to resist seeing if some kind of analysis could find it. Rework the footprint evidence, the blood samples, map them onto the house (even if the house yields no further samples, the existing blood evidence might now be telling a story about order of events, single weapon used, etc). What if some other metal is found upon this inspection (and now that metal needs to be analyzed and perhaps another knife or weapon is implicated - we don't know).

For those of us with hyperactive forensic imaginations (and really, that's what the investigators have to employ at least a little, because all murders are non-rational and these murders are particularly strange and brutal), many scenarios could emerge out of advanced metallurgic radiology. Even if there's no further evidence of any other knife, I can see how the FBI might want to check out the house again, with just the new knowledge that for Ethan's death, a KaBar knife is clearly involved.

If they did uncover such evidence (but found nothing new at the house), that would bring that particular branch of the investigation to an end. Which is also valuable, while the State is waiting for the Defense to file more pre-trial motions. This is just one scenario - there could be so many others.

But yes, this does take time. A good investigation would verify, for example, by obtaining KaBar knives, that the propietary coating (which is the part that would rub off first) is the same on several knives and matches what they found (possibly in more than one place). It's a multi-week process, in my opinion.

Journal article from 2018, showing how new this kind of research is. And how complicated.

In the above article, they were examining cadaver skin, but found that microscopic metals were carried by the bleed-out process (and were more clearly visible on the bone cuts). This is pretty new stuff and one would have to find special experts to do this analysis. They use a highly specialized electron microscope - there aren't a lot of those around. I do believe Seattle UofW has this equipment. The study above uses SEM-EDS in Milan, Italy. One needs both access to the equipment and experts who've published in the field to run it. It would be pushing the forensic envelope to try and find more evidence from the house itself - I am just spitballing on one possible scenario, knowing that I am very likely wrong - but another equally surprising technique may be in use.

We just don't know. But now that the State has a long timeline on which to review its evidence and use emerging techniques, anything is possible. I'll be very happy if the forensic people can think of a new scientific method to bring justice in this case - one that someone like BK would never have thought of.

What if these microscopic particles show a dramatic picture of the murderer's movement through the house? Or the use of two weapons? Or something else - everyone else's guesses are welcome and as good as mine. I just remembered that Xana had defensive wounds (likely on her hands). Perhaps both Ethan and Xana provided evidence that can only be seen under electron microscope. Xana's hands would have been easier to sample, I'd think, than Ethan's rib or shoulder bones.

Does anyone remember what the status of the house is? Is it still slated to be torn down?

Mostly just more questions - not many answers. IMO.
 
Thanks so much for your insight @10ofRods !
I didn't realize such testing could take this long, but it makes sense if they are going to carry out such elaborate investigations.
Regardless of whether or not your hypothetical scenario is correct it's still fascinating to learn that they can do something so detailed and precise.
About the demolition, as far as I understand it's still going to happen, all they said is they won't do it this semester (they said this back in October, see below at the end) but that's coming to a close very soon, so who knows what they'll do in 2024.
 
Also wondering what it could be. Looks like evidence the State has already logged needing transfer for evaluation.
JMO

Reading the Order: This is the State requesting evidence transfer for forensic evaluation with no objection from the Defense. MOO

Based upon the State’s MOTION TO TEMPORARILY SEAL STIPULATION AND ORDER TO TRANSFER EVIDENCE FOR FORENSIC EVALUATION PENDING HEARING filed herein and no objection from defense counsel


Wow. I read that yesterday and it didn't sink in. So, the Defense has some physical evidence (about which they are making forensic claims) and have agreed to transfer it to the State. I wonder what it is.

And you're probably the best person to ask, but do you (or anyone else) recall a similar request in the opposite direction? Is one of the upcoming Defense requests about physical evidence transfer?

Because I've been wondering if the Defense wants to examine the sheath.
 
I am remembering the request for his television. Is this a forensic cloud thing as opposed to forensic blood evidence or whatever? I found that to be particularly weird at the time I'm wondering if it would interrelate it's a complete hyperbolic guess. JMOO

Edit: It bothered me that he asked for it and was given it I think fairly quickly. If they hadn't procured it themselves was he hiding something? IDK
 
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Wow. I read that yesterday and it didn't sink in. So, the Defense has some physical evidence (about which they are making forensic claims) and have agreed to transfer it to the State. I wonder what it is.

And you're probably the best person to ask, but do you (or anyone else) recall a similar request in the opposite direction? Is one of the upcoming Defense requests about physical evidence transfer?

Because I've been wondering if the Defense wants to examine the sheath.
No, that is not what I intended to say.
ASAIK all the evidence is held by the State.
IMO The State and D stipulated to transfer evidence for forensic evaluation and the State requested to seal the stipulation and Order, with no objection from the D. Like @Sozo posted, we don't really know where it is going or who is evaluating it. MOO

A previous stipulation submitted by the State does mention the return of evidentiary items: extending the time. So, a/an item/s were somewhere being evaluated before. I also recall an order by the Judge that mentioned (note written on the order) concern with the transfer of some item of evidence. MOO


Looking back through all the stipulations. Some are put forth by the D, Some are put forth by the P, Some are put forth by both D and P (protective orders and nondessimination orders). From what I can see, usually the individual submitting the stipulation is the one who asks for the seal. MOO

For example: a stipulated motion from the defense:
STIPULATED MOTION TO FILE EXHIBIT ATTACHED TO THE DEFENDANT’S 2ND SUPPLEMENTAL REQUEST FOR DISCOVERY UNDER SEAL

COMES NOW, Bryan C. Kohbergcr, by and through his attorney, Anne Taylor, PublicDefender, and hereby moves the Court for an Order to file Exhibit of Defendant’s 2"‘1 Supplemental Requestfor Discovery under seal.

This motion is made pursuant to I.C.A.R 32(i)(2) (D) and (E) and LC. §74-124(l) (b) and (c)because 1) the documents contain facts or statements that mightthreaten or endangerthe life or safety of individuals, 2)it is necessary to preservethe right to fair trial, and 3) disclosure would constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.


https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/...ants+2nd+Supplemental+Request+for+Discove.pdf

Also, note the reasons for sealing this latest stipulation and order: All five are consistently used by the State. MOO

Interfere with enforcement proceedings;

Deprive person of right to fair trial or an impartial adjudication;

Constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy,

Disclose the identity of confidential source;

and/or Disclose investigative techniques and procedures


https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/...Motion-to-Temp-Seal-Stipulation-and-Order.pdf


MOO JMO IMO
 
I am remembering the request for his television. Is this a forensic cloud thing as opposed to forensic blood evidence or whatever? I found that to be particularly weird at the time I'm wondering if it would interrelate it's a complete hyperbolic guess. JMOO

Edit: It bothered me that he asked for it and was given it I think fairly quickly. If they hadn't procured it themselves was he hiding something? IDK
Was this in a Defendant's request for discovery?
Do you recall which one?
 
I am remembering the request for his television. Is this a forensic cloud thing as opposed to forensic blood evidence or whatever? I found that to be particularly weird at the time I'm wondering if it would interrelate it's a complete hyperbolic guess. JMOO

Edit: It bothered me that he asked for it and was given it I think fairly quickly. If they hadn't procured it themselves was he hiding something? IDK
Maybe he forgot the TV has cache memory.
 
Was this in a Defendant's request for discovery?
Do you recall which one?

It wasn't a request/motion. The defense team picked his tv up along with his other belongings when they visited his apartment.
 

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No, that is not what I intended to say.
ASAIK all the evidence is held by the State.
IMO The State and D stipulated to transfer evidence for forensic evaluation and the State requested to seal the stipulation and Order, with no objection from the D. Like @Sozo posted, we don't really know where it is going or who is evaluating it. MOO

A previous stipulation submitted by the State does mention the return of evidentiary items: extending the time. So, a/an item/s were somewhere being evaluated before. I also recall an order by the Judge that mentioned (note written on the order) concern with the transfer of some item of evidence. MOO


Looking back through all the stipulations. Some are put forth by the D, Some are put forth by the P, Some are put forth by both D and P (protective orders and nondessimination orders). From what I can see, usually the individual submitting the stipulation is the one who asks for the seal. MOO

For example: a stipulated motion from the defense:
STIPULATED MOTION TO FILE EXHIBIT ATTACHED TO THE DEFENDANT’S 2ND SUPPLEMENTAL REQUEST FOR DISCOVERY UNDER SEAL

COMES NOW, Bryan C. Kohbergcr, by and through his attorney, Anne Taylor, PublicDefender, and hereby moves the Court for an Order to file Exhibit of Defendant’s 2"‘1 Supplemental Requestfor Discovery under seal.

This motion is made pursuant to I.C.A.R 32(i)(2) (D) and (E) and LC. §74-124(l) (b) and (c)because 1) the documents contain facts or statements that mightthreaten or endangerthe life or safety of individuals, 2)it is necessary to preservethe right to fair trial, and 3) disclosure would constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.


https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/...ants+2nd+Supplemental+Request+for+Discove.pdf

Also, note the reasons for sealing this latest stipulation and order: All five are consistently used by the State. MOO

Interfere with enforcement proceedings;

Deprive person of right to fair trial or an impartial adjudication;

Constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy,

Disclose the identity of confidential source;

and/or Disclose investigative techniques and procedures


https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/...Motion-to-Temp-Seal-Stipulation-and-Order.pdf


MOO JMO IMO
Thank you.

The part about endangering lives and the right to a fair trial seem to hang over several pieces of evidence.

I wonder what they are. Thank you SO much for your expertise in this area.
 
The Defense doesn't have everything it claims is evidence. I believe that Judge Judge could rule that the personal information of the IGG Kohberger is not discoverable (work product, something like using a phone book to find someone - and then requiring that the phone company turn over all its records regarding that page in the directory). If the rest of it is FBI stuff, I do wonder how that will go.

Okay, that's not a good analogy, and I do wonder what the other 9 discovery requests are for. If the Defense can keep thinking up this sort of "discovery" request, this is going to be one long road to trial.

Regardless of what happens with the IGG "evidence," I don't think it would remotely exonerate BK.

IMO.
Well, I think throwing spaghetti at the wall and delaying things is what you do when you have a client who left DNA on the knife sheath at a multiple murder scene where the victims were killed with a knife.
 
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