4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #94

[pseudo_hum]

IMO, it was a bit more complicated than that. I'm not sure there's a way to cleanse something so small as DNA from down inside that kind of groove (designed so as to get narrower and then wider to accommodate the snap - it also is a great hiding place for skin cells).

And I don't think he felt okay using bleach on it (that would have made it obvious he had tried to rid it of DNA). But even bleach cannot destroy DNA easily. It's a fairly tightly bonded molecule.

If he had dunked the whole thing in bleach, I'm not sure even that would have worked.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497316300734

Keep in mind that there was only one DNA pattern in that snap (and they found more than one set of chromosomes, IIRC).

The above article just points out that even bleach cannot destroy DNA in a way that is consistent and regular. There are a ton of other studies. Soap won't do it. Isopropyl alcohol won't do it. Not entirely, anyway. Maybe after 50 washings with bleach - but if the sheath had been repeatedly soaked in bleach, that too could be discovered (and still could if the Defense wanted consumptive testing of the sheath - which, apparently it does not want).

I'd bet a lot of donuts it's because the Defense knows a few things we don't (such as...there's a separate trail tying Kohberger to buying a Ka-Bar knife; perhaps even showing it to someone...)

IMO.

OK, IMO, sorry.

 

[10ofRods]

OK, IMO, sorry.

No worries. This research is fairly new and no one who isn't in the field would be aware (and I am including Kohberger himself - as DeSales only requires 1 class for its Masters in criminal justice - I think it's criminal justice; not criminology).

I guess I want people to be reminded that DNA is tricky and hard to get rid of. I'm reading papers on the recent partial DNA studies (still very illuminating) from 40,000-300,000 years ago. There's enough left to determine a few things about paternity - enough to narrow the pool of possible parents to a very small number.

And we leave it everywhere. Whoever left the DNA on the sheath, they left enough for a full, single profile (and I believe they said there was enough for 12 swabs to run well through the sequencer - that, to me, means there's still more DNA there - a little - to be recovered).

But the Defense will not ask for it. Because they already know that would incriminate BK further (and make huge headlines when eventually revealed) and is not exonerating. They want exoneration, not incrimination.

I do think the Defense will try to convince the jury that it's only a "little bit" of DNA. But I like to keep in mind that it took far less DNA to make both you and me. And we're here. With that DNA in every cell in our bodies!

IMO. It's a complex subject.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

IMO, it was a bit more complicated than that. I'm not sure there's a way to cleanse something so small as DNA from down inside that kind of groove (designed so as to get narrower and then wider to accommodate the snap - it also is a great hiding place for skin cells).

And I don't think he felt okay using bleach on it (that would have made it obvious he had tried to rid it of DNA). But even bleach cannot destroy DNA easily. It's a fairly tightly bonded molecule.

If he had dunked the whole thing in bleach, I'm not sure even that would have worked.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497316300734

Keep in mind that there was only one DNA pattern in that snap (and they found more than one set of chromosomes, IIRC).

The above article just points out that even bleach cannot destroy DNA in a way that is consistent and regular. There are a ton of other studies. Soap won't do it. Isopropyl alcohol won't do it. Not entirely, anyway. Maybe after 50 washings with bleach - but if the sheath had been repeatedly soaked in bleach, that too could be discovered (and still could if the Defense wanted consumptive testing of the sheath - which, apparently it does not want).

I'd bet a lot of donuts it's because the Defense knows a few things we don't (such as...there's a separate trail tying Kohberger to buying a Ka-Bar knife; perhaps even showing it to someone...)

IMO.

Given this information about how difficult it is to erase DNA, what do you think we can infer about the fact that no other DNA (bovine, if they would even report that -- or the stitcher, packager etc) was found on the sheath?

 

[jepop]

Given this information about how difficult it is to erase DNA, what do you think we can infer about the fact that no other DNA (bovine, if they would even report that -- or the stitcher, packager etc) was found on the sheath?

RBBM

I don't think there has ever been any reporting that no other dna at all was ever found on the body or main part of the sheath and really can't recall this ever coming up in any court docs. Was a link or source posted or is this just speculation?

As the sheathe was found under MM's body I think the main part/body of the sheath probably had blood on it. So I'll take a punt at speculating what would have occurred though others around here understand lab processes much better than me.

All below is moo incoming speculation:
Blood on the body/main part of the sheath would have been sampled, swabbed and tested - producing dna profiles of one or both of the upstairs victims. Reports would be in discovery Imo. If other dna was found on the sheath or mixed with victim blood and it was also BK's I think it would have been mentioned at some point by the state - in the PCA for e.g jmo.

@10ofRods has posted extensively in the past about the process that would be involved in dna extraction from deeper in the leather of the sheath and I really can't speak to what that process may involve. I do recall that it was said that the D could, if they wished, have the sheath tested themselves if that was what they wanted - and if so - it might reveal the dna of the bovine whose skin produced it and that such testing would destroy the leather partially. Moo

ebm for clarity

Eta wondering if below post from up thread is the source for no other dna ever found on sheath? If so, the statement made is not linked and is not a fact imo

4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #94

AT has a tough case. Deep down, she knows he did it. All she can do is question the heck out of all of the prosecution's evidence.. trying to get it thrown out if possible. She is a Defense attorney and reportedly a good one. She will try as much as she can to get a win with a poor hand she...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Angelcat13]

The public and media doesn’t need to see it but the defense team should. This is the way they found the suspect so the process should be absolutely transparent to avoid any argument to validity.

It’s only fair that the defense should see everything regarding the methods behind the search, the search log, input information, all of the results. The defense should be allowed to see every single person in the database that came back as a possible or close match to the DNA, as the prosecution has that information as well and we want a fair trial.

The names should be assigned a numerical code so the actual identities remain private and protected.

 

[GRT]

Then how could the sheath not have any other DNA on it? Those sheaths are made by hand in Mexico.

That is odd. Being hand-stitched, you'd think there would at least be some DNA traces caught in the seams. And, leather is skin.

 

[iamshadow21]

That is odd. Being hand-stitched, you'd think there would at least be some DNA traces caught in the seams. And, leather is skin.

There probably is DNA buried deep in the seams, but that location isn't a likely deposit location for DNA of the person who used that knife and sheath, which was what they were trying to find.

MOO

 

[GRT]

RBBM

I don't think there has ever been any reporting that no other dna at all was ever found on the body or main part of the sheath and really can't recall this ever coming up in any court docs. Was a link or source posted or is this just speculation?

RSBM

Good point. I guess I just took "single source" to mean that was it.

But, maybe that isn't what it actually means.

 

[jepop]

RSBM

Good point. I guess I just took "single source" to mean that was it.

But, maybe that isn't what it actually means.

Yeah sorry, either you missed my point or maybe my post was not clear. I was talking about victims' and bovine dna (and maybe sheath maker dna) embedded in the body (ie leather) of sheath. A single source male full profile was extracted from the snap button and means exactly that. Imo

 

[maskedwoman]

Not to mention apparently there wasn't enough left to have it retested lol


Let's be honest if it weren't for touch DNA there is absolutely not one piece of evidence that links BK to this crime. There also is not one piece of evidence that he knew the four victims and absolutely no motive whatsoever. If he indeed was involved he didn't do it by himself in my opinion.

Respectfully, we don't know that the DNA is the only evidence that ties BK to the murders. Everyone has done a very good job of keeping everything quiet, as they should due to the gag order. No sources who "spoke anonymously because they weren't authorized to speak publicly about the case" going on here!

 

[GRT]

Yeah sorry, either you missed my point or maybe my post was not clear. I was talking about victims' and bovine dna (and maybe sheath maker dna) embedded in the body (ie leather) of sheath. A single source male full profile was extracted from the snap button and means exactly that. Imo

It's just me. I'm not too knowledgable about the intricacies of DNA all the way around. Thanks for the clarification!

 

[daydreamin]

Respectfully, we don't know that the DNA is the only evidence that ties BK to the murders. Everyone has done a very good job of keeping everything quiet, as they should due to the gag order. No sources who "spoke anonymously because they weren't authorized to speak publicly about the case" going on here!

Respectfully, we don't know if the sheath actually housed the actual murder weapon either. For that matter we don't even know if it really was a kbar knife that was used in the crime either.

 

[Justice101]

Respectfully, we don't know that the DNA is the only evidence that ties BK to the murders. Everyone has done a very good job of keeping everything quiet, as they should due to the gag order. No sources who "spoke anonymously because they weren't authorized to speak publicly about the case" going on here!

Given both the State of Idaho as well as FBI assistance in this case, whatever evidence they have, it is going to be very very thorough.

Not to sound like a broken record, but the DNA evidence is going to be A#1 in the prosecutions case.

In trial, I think the defense will be trying to change the focus to: With such a brutal killing of 4 students, why was there no other DNA evidence of BK in the house?!! Why no fingerprints? Why no killer's blood? How could BK possibly do it all by himself without leaving any other evidence?? Etc, etc.

What the prosecution will do to rebuff that is focus on BK's study in the PhD program in Criminology. Show how he is meticulous and was schooled in how to NOT to leave evidence. But in fact he did leave evidence, and important, irrefutable evidence: in the form of DNA.

The prosecution will use the fact that there was no other evidence left AS A POSITIVE for their case.. The very essence of having little evidence, in a strange way, leads to a defendant like BK. The prosecution will detail BK putting his soiled tissues in plastic bags in Pennsylvania as an example.

They will also show how he acted like he was guilty: turning off his phone as he went to the crime scene, evidence of massive clean up of the interior of his car, evidence he was hiding his DNA in his parent's neighborhood trash cans at night (there will be video of that!).

The more I think about it, just from the standpoint of what evidence we know about and how the prosecution can "tell a story" about what probably happened, Kohberger is in big big trouble for being convicted.

I'd put it at 95% at this point.

However, in the end, I truly believe that this end up NOT actually going to trial. He will be allowed to plead guilty to avoid the death penalty.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Given both the State of Idaho as well as FBI assistance in this case, whatever evidence they have, it is going to be very very thorough.

Not to sound like a broken record, but the DNA evidence is going to be A#1 in the prosecutions case.

In trial, I think the defense will be trying to change the focus to: With such a brutal killing of 4 students, why was there no other DNA evidence of BK in the house?!! Why no fingerprints? Why no killer's blood? How could BK possibly do it all by himself without leaving any other evidence?? Etc, etc.

What the prosecution will do to rebuff that is focus on BK's study in the PhD program in Criminology. Show how he is meticulous and was schooled in how to NOT to leave evidence. But in fact he did leave evidence, and important, irrefutable evidence: in the form of DNA.

The prosecution will use the fact that there was no other evidence left AS A POSITIVE for their case.. The very essence of having little evidence, in a strange way, leads to a defendant like BK. The prosecution will detail BK putting his soiled tissues in plastic bags in Pennsylvania as an example.

They will also show how he acted like he was guilty: turning off his phone as he went to the crime scene, evidence of massive clean up of the interior of his car, evidence he was hiding his DNA in his parent's neighborhood trash cans at night (there will be video of that!).

The more I think about it, just from the standpoint of what evidence we know about and how the prosecution can "tell a story" about what probably happened, Kohberger is in big big trouble for being convicted.

I'd put it at 95% at this point.

However, in the end, I truly believe that this end up NOT actually going to trial. He will be allowed to plead guilty to avoid the death penalty.

I agree 100% with everything you said, but I don't think the State will offer a plea in this case.

JMO

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I don't think there has ever been any reporting that no other dna at all was ever found on the body or main part of the sheath and really can't recall this ever coming up in any court docs. Was a link or source posted or is this just speculation

RSBM

Good point. I guess I just took "single source" to mean that was it.

But, maybe that isn't what it actually means.

I believe that *is* what single source means. But I did make the assumption that the single source DNA found on the snap was the only DNA found on the sheath. Perhaps that was an erroneous assumption. I don't know. MOO

 

[maskedwoman]

Respectfully, we don't know if the sheath actually housed the actual murder weapon either. For that matter we don't even know if it really was a kbar knife that was used in the crime either.

Fair enough, but does anyone really think the killer carried this sheath plus a separate weapon and sheath to the crime scene, then struggled with the victims on the bed, and left only the one empty sheath behind? Or even that the killer carried an unsheathed weapon, plus a separate empty sheath? That only makes sense if the purpose was to leave the empty sheath behind, which means that Moscow PD and the FBI have been tricked into charging BK and the "real" killer is still out there, which is a scenario that I don't accept. MOOooo

 

[jepop]

I believe that *is* what single source means. But I did make the assumption that the single source DNA found on the snap was the only DNA found on the sheath. Perhaps that was an erroneous assumption. I don't know. MOO

No, I think you're probably right in that assumption, as regards dna that did not belong to the upstairs victims. I too make an educated guess that when state labs analysed what has to have been blood imo on the main body of the sheath, what came back was only victim dna (ie for the swabs done on surface of leather ).I don't believe BK dna was found mixed in with victim dna derived from blood but maybe it was and is just not mentioned in any publicly available info.moo

As to bovine and sheath maker dna, one assumes it is there but I believe to test for that may involve some sort of process which would involve destroying part of the sheath leater itself though not sure and going off posts I've read here on and off. moo

 

[arielilane]

New Doc drop. This is the outcome from the May 30 IGG hearing. I was looking for this Friday but it wasn't posted until today. Decision was made by JJJ on Friday:

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/2024/060724-Second-Amended-Order-Disclosure-IGG-Info-PO.pdf

Thank you for posting doc, @Balthazar.

-- Judge is allowing defense counsel, IGG defense experts, and defense investigators, and BK to view the IGG materials provided by the State.

 

[sunspun]

However, in the end, I truly believe that this end up NOT actually going to trial. He will be allowed to plead guilty to avoid the death penalty.

rsbm

I've thought that he might not WANT to avoid the death penalty, so would force it to go to trial. In fact, I've thought that may be why he went across the state line from a NON-death penalty state to a state that HAS the death penalty to commit his crime, allegedly. Might have seen that as a plus for Idaho, as opposed to WA.

 

[Megnut]

Fair enough, but does anyone really think the killer carried this sheath plus a separate weapon and sheath to the crime scene, then struggled with the victims on the bed, and left only the one empty sheath behind? Or even that the killer carried an unsheathed weapon, plus a separate empty sheath? That only makes sense if the purpose was to leave the empty sheath behind, which means that Moscow PD and the FBI have been tricked into charging BK and the "real" killer is still out there, which is a scenario that I don't accept. MOOooo

It is possible that BK had a single target. Didn't expect K to be there, didn't expect X to be awake, didn't expect E at all.

IMO BK was prevented from a career military and/or law enforcement. Huge injustice for his collection.

He may have become a mass murderer by circumstance but had his sights set on being a serial killer, that the sheath was so effectively wiped down (minus the missed groove) raises the possibility that he intended to leave it behind. His future signature, linking all future murders. In this scenario, it would in fact be a second sheath.

I have wondered how he exited the home and location with an unsheathed knife without injuring himself. Sharp, unprotected blade. Two sheaths would account for that.

JMO