7.0 Earthquake Hits Haiti Hospital Collapses

[LogicalMinds]

There are many many long posts and debates on the "cruise forum" sites

the fact is...that NO one has to get off at any port...some are sick of the Bahamas and dont' get off..(it looks like Florida frankly....or Florida looks like them LOL)

some say they won't get off...some will and plan to "tip" extra...many are bringing donations

the cruiseline has donation stuff set up...

when we have huricanes I don't expect people in California to stop their parties and if you all are stuck in the snow don't mind me sitting in a jacuzzi (I don't swim in the winter...too "cold" LOL)

I don't mean to "yell" at you...and sorry if I did...

what I am upset about however is the current rash of "negative" posts about Haiti..that I feel ultimately will deter people from helping or caring

I am seeing a LOT of that here in South Florida even ,,,where some people are taking the harsh idea that "nothing will help them, let's forget them"

I think all the bs about how "bad' the response was...the (wrongful) implication that tourism is "booming" there (a few ships, 200 workers, ONE private beach Labadee)...all of that makes people less likely to donate or gives them a justification to NOT donate

and yes, that bothers me

This is a disaster of epic proportions...we have to stop finding excuses and 2nd guessing and just do what we can

JMO of course

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

I think it was Sunday....I awoke in a cold sweat, having just had a nightmare where it was announced that Anderson Cooper had been murdered by (machete) decapitation. I immediately ran to my TV and turned on the news. Phew.....Anderson was still alive and well......unlike the Haitians he is reporting about about.
SHAME on the WORLD for taking SO LONG to make air drops of water and food rations. And the lack of medical care....SHAME! I don't understand it. But I NOW KNOW that I need to always be prepared to take care of myself and my own, because in case of severe crisis, my government IS NOT going to be my first line of defense. KWIM?

Your not there. You do not know the ins and out's of this situation, yet you can sit here and criticize everyone?

We could NOT drop water and food down to the victims, because it would start riots, and more violence outbreaks, hence more injuries and yet ANOTHER issue that would impede rescue effotrs. Cnn has reported this from Day 1!

Please stop criticizing everything! This was a disaster of high proportions, and we moved as quickly as possible. Roads were wrecked, so were the airports. It takes time to get aid out there because of how badly DAMAGED the country is!

I personally think that people just look for something to blame the governments for. Rather then trying to find the good in a situation, they would rather cast blame to the government. After all EVERYTHING is THEIR fault right??? Can you sense my frustration?

If you think you can do a better job, why not ask to go over with the next Red cross volunteer group, I am sure they are looking for volunteers.

 

[LinasK]

January 20, 2010 | 8:40 amLa Plaza

News from Latin America and the Caribbean
from L.A. Times correspondents

Earthquake-stricken residents in Haiti were jolted from sleep this morning by a magnitude 6.1 aftershock that sent people running into the street and sowed fresh fears eight days after a catastrophic temblor. There were no immediate reports of injuries, and it was unclear what more damage was caused by the aftershock, which hit just after 6 a.m. about 35 miles west-southwest of the devastated capital, Port-au-Prince, according to the U.S. Geological Survey.
The new quake, about 6 miles deep, was the strongest of a series of aftershocks that have rattled Haiti since the 7.0 earthquake hit on Jan. 12, reducing Port-au-Prince and surrounding cities to rubble and killing tens of thousands of people. more at link:http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lap...rshock-jolts-haitians-out-of-their-sleep.html

 

[songline]

No, my parents were there in the 1980's, NOT the 50's! Also when I was there, we did NOT go to a secluded private beach staff by RCI staff, nor was it in the wintertime- It was in August. I was onshore dealing with natives. I know from what I speak.

I know people who went there and had a good time because they liked to see how the natives live, (not because of a huge tourist attraction).
My grand kids have a friend whose Mom is Haitian and I saw her on Saturday - According to her there is no big tourist business there at all, She still has family there and goes every couple of years everything she told me sounds more like everything that Logical Mind has posted.
Having said that "YES" some went to Haiti but nothing that ads up to giving them a real tourist trade, and there are places that tourists do not go at all, and the hotel workers are not the poor Haitians, in fact some are Americans.

 

[LogicalMinds]

No, my parents were there in the 1980's, NOT the 50's! Also when I was there, we did NOT go to a secluded private beach staff by RCI staff, nor was it in the wintertime- It was in August. I was onshore dealing with natives. I know from what I speak.

<sigh> if you read my posts...they have like ONE ship that goes there year round and a few others that go in the winter

IF you went to Haiti with RCI you did go to Labadee...which is a private fenced off tourist area

it has "stuff" to do....parasail, glass bottom boat, zipline, a "tour" walk with a native.....but all run by RCI...the bartenders and cooks and servers are RCI

the men who set your chairs up are Haitans who are "vetted" and work there, lucky job for them....the women who braid hair...the people who sell crafts...they are the lucky 200

RCI runs NO tours off of the beach/area they own there

they will discourage you from leaving the area....if you went far enough you would see the armed guards

look at RCI's own site...visit a cruise board whatever

if your parents were there in the mid 80's...so what?? how would that help the economy?? In the mid 80's most cruises had about 650 passengers....and the money they spent back then doesn't help now

Haiti had civil wars in the late 80's...after the fall of Baby Doc...that is about the time the "Club Med" was also closed (it reopened for 2 dismal years in the mid 90's)

What do think is accomplished anyhow by "proving" that Haiti had some (small) tourist trade decades ago? That has nothing to do with the fact that Haiti has no resources, no real tourist trade and nothing

IF you went "out" into the real Haiti...you had to go past the guards...find and hire some native speaking "guard" ...and you should have had your "shots'>> Haiti has malaria....dengue fever....TB...and a host of other diseases....relief workers going there get shots..did you???

FYI: in the 1950's Cuba was THE hot spot....top name entertainers, rich people, movie stars, casinos run by the american Mafia

 

[LinasK]

I know people who went there and had a good time because they liked to see how the natives live, (not because of a huge tourist attraction).
My grand kids have a friend whose Mom is Haitian and I saw her on Saturday - According to her there is no big tourist business there at all, She still has family there and goes every couple of years everything she told me sounds more like everything that Logical Mind has posted.
Having said that "YES" some went to Haiti but nothing that ads up to giving them a real tourist trade, and there are places that tourists do not go at all, and the hotel workers are not the poor Haitians, in fact some are Americans.

I know what things were like when I was there and they did have a thriving tourist trade from Cruise Ships- contrary to what Logical Minds is posting. In fact Royal Carribean is still, at this very moment going to Haiti. They are one of the biggest cruise ship lines. The Clintons flew to Haiti for their honeymoon, it is a tourist destination, despite what LM thinks, and despite the poverty. There is a big business selling wooden statues and clothing and such souvenirs, not enough to wipe out the poverty and infrastructure problems, but I know what I know how things were when I was there.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

yeah I said various times that RCI has Labadee (Cap Haitian)..ONE private beach..used by ONLY their ships and mostly only in the winter..

I know cruises...and I know that NONE visit PaP...NONE...what year did your parents go there?? Maybe in the ? 50's or something....but none recently

also...speaking of being "wrong">> you stated "Ummm, they Did have a wonderful Tourist Trade from Cruise ships alone, let alone the people that fly to Haiti as a vacation destination. Cap Haitian and Port- Au-Prince are frequent ports of call for many cruise ships... "..

FACT...they never did have a "wonderful" tourist trade...once again....they had ONE beach...200 haitian workers...with ONE cruiseline

no one went there as a "vacation destination">>> NO one

they don't have any major hotel chains, they don't even have electricity for the most part...they use generators, they don't even have a bus schedule
and people who go there are there for missonary/aide/govt etc work

Haiti was NOT a frequent port of call..and NOT for many cruise ships...

they had virtually NO real tourist trade...with the health problems, vacines needed to travel there, the water etc....and the fact that people had to "rent" a "guide" to translate and protect them....NO tourists

read tripadvisor....read "lonely planet"...they had NO tourist trade...and I don't see anyone proving any different...

they had aide workers, missionaries...some engineers....a few art dealers...business people.

once again...I have been to most of these islands...I have been on many cruises...I know people who are in the travel biz...I know people who travel 20 times more than me..and I only know a few people who have been to Haiti besides Labadee on RCI>>> Dr Rich and a minister and a former missionary guy

and thats it...and it was bad there...but rewarding...
but please...NOT a tourist industy...I just spoke to my minister friend yesterday and he reinforced what I have been saying here

I have NO idea why you want to portray Haiti as "sucessful" and a tourist destination...?? I don't get it

If I am wrong...fine...please post links/"vacation" info on Haiti prequake...

please post the "fantastic cruiseship" trade..as far as I know they had ONLY RCI and only a few visits a week mostly in the winter (as those ships go to europe or alaska in summer...one stays here and would probably still visit...and ONLY on the western itinerary)

I am more than happy to back up anything and everything I say...I respect opinions but when it comes to facts facts are facts...
and the fact is that Haiti had virtually NO tourists, no tourism industry

one beach...a few visits..and 200 people employed by it

IF I am wrong please post the facts....I have been wrong before but on this I am pretty sure I am right..thanks

I have no desire to hurt the people of Haiti but when it was reported on the news that the people were sleeping in the streets, my husband replied (not being flip but stating what he had observed first hand) something to the affect that so many of the Haitian people are used to that and that so many Haitians sleep out on the street, have no indoor plumbing or sanitation, dirt floors and unclean water. People build tolerances to bacteria and bugs that will kill another person who hasn't been exposed. He said very, very dire conditions. He said only Bangladesh might compare. He's been all over the world. Africa is not the same type of poverty - then we get into discussions of ethnocentricity. My husband told me that I have not seen the type of poverty/living conditions in Thailand that we are talking about here. Let me just say that, especially in rural Thailand, you poop into a hole and things are in no way "western" but it is not abject poverty.

Adding - we personally want to help Haiti and are doing so - because Haiti is so poor (wealth wise) we want to help even more.

 

[songline]

There are many many long posts and debates on the "cruise forum" sites

the fact is...that NO one has to get off at any port...some are sick of the Bahamas and dont' get off..(it looks like Florida frankly....or Florida looks like them LOL)

some say they won't get off...some will and plan to "tip" extra...many are bringing donations

the cruiseline has donation stuff set up...

when we have huricanes I don't expect people in California to stop their parties and if you all are stuck in the snow don't mind me sitting in a jacuzzi (I don't swim in the winter...too "cold" LOL)

I don't mean to "yell" at you...and sorry if I did...

what I am upset about however is the current rash of "negative" posts about Haiti..that I feel ultimately will deter people from helping or caring

I am seeing a LOT of that here in South Florida even ,,,where some people are taking the harsh idea that "nothing will help them, let's forget them"
I think all the bs about how "bad' the response was...the (wrongful) implication that tourism is "booming" there (a few ships, 200 workers, ONE private beach Labadee)...all of that makes people less likely to donate or gives them a justification to NOT donate

and yes, that bothers me
This is a disaster of epic proportions...we have to stop finding excuses and 2nd guessing and just do what we can

JMO of course

BBM:
I call all of that Excuses - they just validate their reason for not being humane, for being stingy, for whatever else may ail them.
People will always justify their position so that they do not get to feel stingy, uncaring, nasty, or whatever.
To the extent that a human being is harmed due to no fault of their own (did not provoke it) especially in a natural disaster people should be humane. but not all people will be humane.
there is a large ME ME ME generation
I am glad you are educating; me included it may change a few, but not all. So thanks for all of your knowledge and patients.

 

[LinasK]

<sigh> if you read my posts...they have like ONE ship that goes there year round and a few others that go in the winter

IF you went to Haiti with RCI you did go to Labadee...which is a private fenced off tourist area. No, it was NOT fenced off.

it has "stuff" to do....parasail, glass bottom boat, zipline, a "tour" walk with a native.....but all run by RCI...the bartenders and cooks and servers are RCI. No, I dealt with natives, NOT RCI staff!

the men who set your chairs up are Haitans who are "vetted" and work there, lucky job for them....the women who braid hair...the people who sell crafts...they are the lucky 200. No, see above

RCI runs NO tours off of the beach/area they own there

they will discourage you from leaving the area....if you went far enough you would see the armed guards

look at RCI's own site...visit a cruise board whatever

if your parents were there in the mid 80's...so what?? how would that help the economy?? In the mid 80's most cruises had about 650 passengers....and the money they spent back then doesn't help now

Haiti had civil wars in the late 80's...after the fall of Baby Doc...that is about the time the "Club Med" was also closed (it reopened for 2 dismal years in the mid 90's)

IF you went "out" into the real Haiti...you had to go past the guards...find and hire some native speaking "guard" ...and you should have had your "shots'>> Haiti has malaria....dengue fever....TB...and a host of other diseases....relief workers going there get shots..did you??? No.

FYI: in the 1950's Cuba was THE hot spot....top name entertainers, rich people, movie stars, casinos run by the american Mafia

What does Cuba have to do with anything??? What does the 1950's have to do with anything???:waitasec: My responses are in red.

 

[sdshelt]

Thanks songline.

Well I just read an update on my sis-in-law's FB page that the kids were *turned away* at the Embassy (after they were told to go there). They are back at orphanage and will try again tomorrow. Can't the red tape be worked through after the fact? I worry about disease and crime every hour they are over there. This is so frustrating!

 

[LinasK]

BBM:
I call all of that Excuses - they just validate their reason for not being humane, for being stingy, for whatever else may ail them.
People will always justify their position so that they do not get to feel stingy, uncaring, nasty, or whatever.
To the extent that a human being is harmed due to no fault of their own (did not provoke it) especially in a natural disaster people should be humane. but not all people will be humane.
there is a large ME ME ME generation

I agree with the majority of your post.

 

[LogicalMinds]

I know people who went there and had a good time because they liked to see how the natives live, (not because of a huge tourist attraction).
My grand kids have a friend whose Mom is Haitian and I saw her on Saturday - According to her there is no big tourist business there at all, She still has family there and goes every couple of years everything she told me sounds more like everything that Logical Mind has posted.
Having said that "YES" some went to Haiti but nothing that ads up to giving them a real tourist trade, and there are places that tourists do not go at all, and the hotel workers are not the poor Haitians, in fact some are Americans.

The "time" to do that was back in the 80's when the poor country was pretty "stable" as a country run by a dictator is usually stable

There have been many many 'civil wars" and uprisings, coup d'etats, etc..on and on

the past few years have been more dangerous than ever

even Lonely PLanet does not have much

"adventure" and "eco tourists" may go to a hostel in Belize or a retreat or camp in Costa Rica

One huge difference between Haiti and these other islands is the sheer number of people, people living in a large city...with NOTHING>>>

imagine NO electricity to speak of...no sewage system...nada/zip/nothing

there is no adventure in Haiti....and the recent outbreak of diseases ther made it even less desirable

where else do they have TB? Dengue Fever?? Malaria??

this is the poorest of the poor

before the quake our own state dept and health depts had warnings

thanks songline...my goal here has been to disprove some idea that Haiti has some booming "tourist trade" or something to "fall back" on

they had nothing before the quake and now they have much much less
and no one has shown me anything different

200 "lucky" Haitians get to sell crafts and set up beach chairs for tips for RCI ships 100 miles from Port au Prince ...and that's about it

Trip advisor listed 5 restaurants and 4 hotels for a country of 9 million people

the biggest and best hotel had 143 rooms....most every holiday inn or budget inn has more than that here

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[songline]

Your not there. You do not know the ins and out's of this situation, yet you can sit here and criticize everyone?

We could NOT drop water and food down to the victims, because it would start riots, and more violence outbreaks, hence more injuries and yet ANOTHER issue that would impede rescue effotrs. Cnn has reported this from Day 1!

Please stop criticizing everything! This was a disaster of high proportions, and we moved as quickly as possible. Roads were wrecked, so were the airports. It takes time to get aid out there because of how badly DAMAGED the country is!

I personally think that people just look for something to blame the governments for. Rather then trying to find the good in a situation, they would rather cast blame to the government. After all EVERYTHING is THEIR fault right??? Can you sense my frustration?

If you think you can do a better job, why not ask to go over with the next Red cross volunteer group, I am sure they are looking for volunteers.

GREAT POST :clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[songline]

<sigh> if you read my posts...they have like ONE ship that goes there year round and a few others that go in the winter

IF you went to Haiti with RCI you did go to Labadee...which is a private fenced off tourist area

it has "stuff" to do....parasail, glass bottom boat, zipline, a "tour" walk with a native.....but all run by RCI...the bartenders and cooks and servers are RCI

the men who set your chairs up are Haitans who are "vetted" and work there, lucky job for them....the women who braid hair...the people who sell crafts...they are the lucky 200

RCI runs NO tours off of the beach/area they own there

they will discourage you from leaving the area....if you went far enough you would see the armed guards

look at RCI's own site...visit a cruise board whatever

if your parents were there in the mid 80's...so what?? how would that help the economy?? In the mid 80's most cruises had about 650 passengers....and the money they spent back then doesn't help now

Haiti had civil wars in the late 80's...after the fall of Baby Doc...that is about the time the "Club Med" was also closed (it reopened for 2 dismal years in the mid 90's)

What do think is accomplished anyhow by "proving" that Haiti had some (small) tourist trade decades ago? That has nothing to do with the fact that Haiti has no resources, no real tourist trade and nothing

IF you went "out" into the real Haiti...you had to go past the guards...find and hire some native speaking "guard" ...and you should have had your "shots'>> Haiti has malaria....dengue fever....TB...and a host of other diseases....relief workers going there get shots..did you???

FYI: in the 1950's Cuba was THE hot spot....top name entertainers, rich people, movie stars, casinos run by the american Mafia

I do realize that you are a historian, but I have worked with personal growth and there are those that just have to be right no matter what. You can only educate those who want to read. <sigh>

 

[LinasK]

I do realize that you are a historian, but I have worked with personal growth and there are those that just have to be right no matter what. You can only educate those who want to read.

It's not a matter of "being right no matter what". I was there- I saw with my own two eyes. So did my parents.
I could probably dig out slides of our trip- beyond the beach in Cap Haitian if I had to prove it!

 

[LogicalMinds]

It WAS fenced off...you just didn't get far enough to see the fence

RCI owns sq miles of land there....it is fenced off from Haiti...NO one can go there....but cruisers and the 200 workers

they come in thru a gate...there are armed guards

even missionaires, relief workers can NOT go there...

your "cruise pass" works there..to buy drinks etc....or "activities"

your food is "included"...it is brought off the ship and cooked by RCI workers and served by them

Once again....there are "natives" working at Labadee....200 LUCKY natives...each one probably supports a village...they are "rich" by Haitian standards...

NO one ventures out of the area that RCI has set up for them

IF you walked quickly and kept going you would eventually hit the fence and guards...

they are there to keep you in and safe and keep out other Haitians who would love to come in to work, sell crafts, beg or rob you

<sigh>




Lina...yes...we deal with the "200 natives" at Labadee...the lucky ones who braid hair, give the tour walk, sell their crafts

They are TB and infection free and "vetted" by RCI....

 

[LinasK]

It WAS fenced off...you just didn't get far enough to see the fence No it wasn't, you could see openly all around!!!

RCI owns sq miles of land there....it is fenced off from Haiti...NO one can go there....but cruisers and the 200 workers

they come in thru a gate...there are armed guards. There were no armed guards, nor gates, we were NOT confined to a beach.

even missionaires, relief workers can NOT go there...

your "cruise pass" works there..to buy drinks etc....or "activities"

your food is "included"...it is brought off the ship and cooked by RCI workers and served by them

Once again....there are "natives" working at Labadee....200 LUCKY natives...each one probably supports a village...they are "rich" by Haitian standards...

NO one ventures out of the area that RCI has set up for them

IF you walked quickly and kept going you would eventually hit the fence and guards...

they are there to keep you in and safe and keep out other Haitians who would love to come in to work, sell crafts, beg or rob you

<sigh>




Lina...yes...we deal with the "200 natives" at Labadee...the lucky ones who braid hair, give the tour walk, sell their crafts

They are TB and infection free and "vetted" by RCI....

NO, they were NOT RCI staff.

 

[songline]

The "time" to do that was back in the 80's when the poor country was pretty "stable" as a country run by a dictator is usually stable

There have been many many 'civil wars" and uprisings, coup d'etats, etc..on and on

the past few years have been more dangerous than ever

even Lonely PLanet does not have much

"adventure" and "eco tourists" may go to a hostel in Belize or a retreat or camp in Costa Rica

One huge difference between Haiti and these other islands is the sheer number of people, people living in a large city...with NOTHING>>>

imagine NO electricity to speak of...no sewage system...nada/zip/nothing

there is no adventure in Haiti....and the recent outbreak of diseases ther made it even less desirable

where else do they have TB? Dengue Fever?? Malaria??

this is the poorest of the poor

before the quake our own state dept and health depts had warnings

thanks songline...my goal here has been to disprove some idea that Haiti has some booming "tourist trade" or something to "fall back" on

they had nothing before the quake and now they have much much less
and no one has shown me anything different

200 "lucky" Haitians get to sell crafts and set up beach chairs for tips for RCI ships 100 miles from Port au Prince ...and that's about it

Trip advisor listed 5 restaurants and 4 hotels for a country of 9 million people

the biggest and best hotel had 143 rooms....most every holiday inn or budget inn has more than that here

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

I actually do know a few who had been there since the 1980, but I am sure you are correct because I trust what you know. (which I do not know) But in all honesty do you think that those who want to know have not read your posts by now? do you think that they have not taken in all the great information you did offer? I don't think so. I think those who want to know have read you and appreciate what you have offered. BUT...Having said that I also want to say You do not have to prove anything because it does seem to upset some. some will just never say that you are right, and sometimes you can be a little strong. (I am not blaming - because I am of a similar ilk)
:blowkiss:

 

[songline]

NO, they were NOT RCI staff.

I believe you but that may not be the common thing there. Nor is it current information.
I really did have a 2 hour talk with a Haitian Mom this Saturday (grand kids friends parent)
The tourist trade is nothing to speak of.

 

[songline]

It WAS fenced off...you just didn't get far enough to see the fence

RCI owns sq miles of land there....it is fenced off from Haiti...NO one can go there....but cruisers and the 200 workers

they come in thru a gate...there are armed guards

even missionaires, relief workers can NOT go there...

your "cruise pass" works there..to buy drinks etc....or "activities"

your food is "included"...it is brought off the ship and cooked by RCI workers and served by them

Once again....there are "natives" working at Labadee....200 LUCKY natives...each one probably supports a village...they are "rich" by Haitian standards...

NO one ventures out of the area that RCI has set up for them

IF you walked quickly and kept going you would eventually hit the fence and guards...

they are there to keep you in and safe and keep out other Haitians who would love to come in to work, sell crafts, beg or rob you

<sigh>




Lina...yes...we deal with the "200 natives" at Labadee...the lucky ones who braid hair, give the tour walk, sell their crafts

They are TB and infection free and "vetted" by RCI....

I am not sure that all tourists the few that do get there would notice any of that. I am not even sure that many know what RCI is (Resort Condominium International) I would bet you that only one out of 20 people would even know that.
Missionaries do not wear a uniform so how would they recognize that?
In short what I am saying is - YES you do know things, but it is not the experience of most people.
In fact they would argue your points because their experience was different.
Having said that...It is important for all to know that Tourism is not a flourishing trade in Haiti is is NOT.
They have no resources, they have no trade, they have poverty and disease.