8 Die in Crash on Taconic State Parkway #2

[Nova]

Thanks for the detailed thoughts, bondobbs, and welcome to WS!

I can't quarrel with your (tentative) diagnosis, but my problem with the suicide theory is that IIRC it was reported that at the end, Diane was honking and flashing her lights to ward off oncoming drivers. That isn't consistent with someone trying to have a head-on collision.

 

[Penelope]

Thanks for the detailed thoughts, bondobbs, and welcome to WS!

I can't quarrel with your (tentative) diagnosis, but my problem with the suicide theory is that IIRC it was reported that at the end, Diane was honking and flashing her lights to ward off oncoming drivers. That isn't consistent with someone trying to have a head-on collision.

IMHO the behaviours described by oncoming drivers fit the theory of irrational anger -- she did not care or listen to what the other drivers were indicating, all she cared about was she was ANGRY and was so enraged she was "crazy" and irrational in her behaviour.

 

[sharkeyes]

..."intentional murder/suicide" theory on a blog and it says, basically, that she planned to die and kill all the kids before she started out that day. That she used the alcohol and drugs to "steel herself" to be able to have such an accident.

I lean toward that theory, but then question why she would risk taking others with her.

(although no one will know without a transcript of that phone call)

That will most likely never be known. Perhaps at some point Warren will feel compelled to share the details, it might make things somewhat easier for him to deal with, maybe not, I respect that he prefers to keep the contents of that conversation private.

I've watched the HBO doc countless times and even purchased the DVD (used, I was too cheap to pay the $20 for new!), which resulted in my becoming even more frustrated the more I watched it. I do believe Danny knows more than he's telling, and as time goes by, more details may come out simply by virtue of the suits that were filed. I believe Jay is genuine and really had no idea or suspicion regarding Diane being unstable. However, Danny is another story - he knows something. Unfortunately, as much as I (and many others, I'm sure) want the details - I think of Brian; Diane was his mom, that kid has a tough row to hoe as it is, I'm sure Jay/Danny do their best to keep him from seeing/reading all that's out there regarding this story - but the older he gets, the more questions he will ask.

So, as interesting and tragic as the story is, whatever triggered Diane will most likely remain a mystery.

BTW: Welcome Bondobbs! :seeya:

 

[zippitydoda]

Thanks for the detailed thoughts, bondobbs, and welcome to WS!

I can't quarrel with your (tentative) diagnosis, but my problem with the suicide theory is that IIRC it was reported that at the end, Diane was honking and flashing her lights to ward off oncoming drivers. That isn't consistent with someone trying to have a head-on collision.

IMO - DS driving the wrong way on a major highway packed with Sunday afternoon traffic is consistant with someone trying to have a head on collision.

 

[Nova]

[/B]

IMO - DS driving the wrong way on a major highway packed with Sunday afternoon traffic is consistant with someone trying to have a head on collision.

Only if she knew that's what she was doing.

 

[bondobbs]

Unfortunately, another accident of these portions happened again in NY...

http://online.wsj.com/article/APdf91bd570e7c4d9c805108448e67e6a6.html

From the article...

Officials probe Bronx SUV accident that killed 7

Associated Press

NEW YORK — Three generations of a family died in a horrifying crash just a few miles from home when the SUV they were traveling in plunged more than 50 feet off a highway overpass and into a ravine on the grounds of the Bronx Zoo, killing all seven aboard, including three children.

"Sometimes you come upon events that are horrific and this is one of them," FDNY deputy Chief Ronald Werner said shortly after the crash.

Authorities were trying to determine what caused Sunday's accident that killed Jacob Nunez, 85, and Ana Julia Martinez, 81, both from the Dominican Republic, their daughters, Maria Gonzalez, 45, and Maria Nunez, 39, and three grandchildren. Police say Gonzalez was driving, and all the victims were wearing seat belts.


<modsnip>

&#8212;Copyright 2012 Associated Press

 

[bondobbs]

And here's my question: I realize she wasn't thinking clearly, but if she was determined to kill herself and her passengers, why drive on the wrong side of the freeway? We have no testimony that she swerved to try to hit oncoming cars; on the contrary, we hear she flashed her lights and honked to ward off traffic coming at her.

Why not ram into a tree or a concrete abutment? Why not at least speed down a two-lane highway where she could easily swerve into oncoming traffic that couldn't avoid her?

Nova,

Excellent questions. You're absolutely right that she could have very easily gotten off the highway at Tarrytown (an exit I know well) and turned around and gotten back on the Tappan Zee going the other way and run the car off the bridge (I guess it would work). I know that area rather well and, while there are a lot of 2 and 4 lane roads in that area, there are also a lot of traffic lights, traffic and steep curves. She probably didn't know this, because she was from long island. Yet, if she had gotten off the highway at the Tarrytown exit, it would have been a bit difficult for her to have had a suicidal accident in that area. The exit ramp off the Thruway right there actually dead-ends into a T and the drivers have to turn right (towards Tarrytown proper - which is a congested town) or left (towards Irvington) which consists of a winding four lane road with 2 lanes of traffic in each direction. There are many 300 year old stone walls (stacked stone from the 1700s) along the way, yet I doubt hitting one of those head-on would do too much except deploy the air bags and total the car. I have no idea if she knew the area well.

The Saw Mill traveling south where she got on it (assumed, because no one knows) has a concrete divider that is about 3 feet high. On the right side there are (generally) a flat area and then woods. The scariest parts of that parkway are that it is narrow (with 2 lanes going in each direction, separated by the divider), winding and there are usually deer grazing at the parkway's edge. There's no way to got the wrong direction on the Saw Mill from where she was. It's not possible because of the divider. She could have turned North on the Saw Mill instead of South off the thruway and, if so, there's one place before the entrance to the Taconic that has a steep cliff-like drop off. It's right before the entryway back onto the Thruway (I-87). That is a place that if someone went off the road, death is probable. My wife skidded off the road near there on black ice and she got stuck in the mud before that drop off.

Then Schuler would have had to go up the Taconic and get off and then get back on in the wrong direction. The exit she got back on is marked "wrong way" but it's not set up so that wrong way drivers cannot get back on like that. If you watch this video (shot and reversed) [video=youtube;EQAZ_cLylJA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQAZ_cLylJA[/video] you can see the route she took.

I think it's possible that she got confused. Still, when they were going the wrong way, it would seem that the older kids in the car would be screaming at her to stop. She had the opportunity to get off on the shoulder a couple of times before the collision as the video shows.

 

[bondobbs]

What was her BAC again?.19? How are they coming up with 10 ounces as it relates to her BAC and body weight? Sounds like 1/2 that would get her to .19 if that was the BAC based on body weight. I am confused about that. I mean she would have to weigh 250 pounds to drink that much alcohol for a BAC that low.
Although, drinking it in 48 minutes would mean the alcohol had not reached it's full effect yet. It enters the blood stream like a bell curve and increase over time and then tapers off. So after 48 minutes her BAC would not have reached it's full "potential" Maybe that is why her BAC is low compared to the amount of aclohol they are saying she ingested.

I am just trying to understand how much she really had to drink. She sounds like she was text book impaired for her BAC and I find that curious.

ETA: according to this, a 140 pound woman would have a BAC of .270 if she had 10 drinks in an hour. 160 pound woman .236
Any thoughts on her size? I am trying to figure a .19 after 10 drinks in an hour.

http://olin.msu.edu/pdfs/BACFemale.pdf

She weighed 206 pounds when the accident occurred. Her BAC was 0.19 Her urine measured 0.25. Her gastric contents were 1.75 g/100 ml.

 

[rpd113]

Just when I get thisclose to forgetting about this case and moving on, someone new pops in with interesting points/theory

Any new information from the civil suits, or is that process still ongoing?

 

[zippitydoda]

Why would an adult drink this vast amount of alcohol and smoke pot with any good intensions when they are driving a van full of children?

IMO - it does not matter if she had a tooth ache, or that light rays from mars blurred her vision, or that the equivalent of 10 drinks of alcohol may have confused her into driving the wrong way. There is no denying that she drank to excess that morning. That is the start of all of this, and she had a reason for doing that - something she knew was very wrong from the first sip. If she had a closet drinking problem, she did not take a short nip to get the edge off and get her through the drive - she drank a huge amount of hard liquor in a short time, in the morning no less, which is hard core in my mind.

And as its been pointed out many times, those children already knew "that there was something wrong with Aunt Diane" well before she made her wrong way re-entry to the Taconic. I fully believe that these innocent, defenseless children would have been screaming in fear at the sight of the cars coming head on at them and her refusal to stop or pull over.

Finally, there is no mention of any finding of an abscessed tooth or infection in her autopsy. Something that would have been noted.

 

[Nova]

Nova,

Excellent questions. You're absolutely right that she could have very easily gotten off the highway at Tarrytown....

Thank you so much for the discussion AND the demo video. (I found the latter a little perplexing in this way: it seems to be shot from "Diane's eye view", but then later it seems to be following another car also going the wrong way.) There's even a point on the ramp where the traffic from other side of the freeway is visible and makes it appear you are about to merge with traffic going to the left.

In any event, the video recreation clearly shows how a badly impaired person might miss the "wrong way" signs at the exit ramp, and once she got past them, there was nothing but oncoming traffic to tell her she was going the wrong way.

To me, the most telling argument against suicide is her failure to swerve into oncoming traffic. Yes, she might have logically deduced that sooner or later she would hit a car in her own lane, but Diane seems to have been way past rational thought at that point.

As for the kids, I imagine they had been screaming, asking questions, begging her to stop for some time and she was simply tuning them out.

But I'll admit that suicide-by-car always strikes me as a chancy proposition; so much can go wrong so easily. So I look for other explanations, even though I know people try it.

 

[Nova]

Why would an adult drink this vast amount of alcohol and smoke pot with any good intensions when they are driving a van full of children?

IMO - it does not matter if she had a tooth ache, or that light rays from mars blurred her vision, or that the equivalent of 10 drinks of alcohol may have confused her into driving the wrong way. There is no denying that she drank to excess that morning. That is the start of all of this, and she had a reason for doing that - something she knew was very wrong from the first sip. If she had a closet drinking problem, she did not take a short nip to get the edge off and get her through the drive - she drank a huge amount of hard liquor in a short time, in the morning no less, which is hard core in my mind.

And as its been pointed out many times, those children already knew "that there was something wrong with Aunt Diane" well before she made her wrong way re-entry to the Taconic. I fully believe that these innocent, defenseless children would have been screaming in fear at the sight of the cars coming head on at them and her refusal to stop or pull over.

Finally, there is no mention of any finding of an abscessed tooth or infection in her autopsy. Something that would have been noted.

Just to be clear, zip, I'm not excusing Diane when I say I doubt she made a conscious decision to commit suicide. You're right: in terms of culpability, it doesn't really matter what her motive was. I just want to understand because I think human nature is interesting and often best revealed in extreme contexts.

As for an abscessed tooth, however, are we absolutely sure an autopsy would have looked for such a thing? I know the general condition of the teeth is noted, but an abscess (or exposed nerve) isn't always visible with the naked eye. Is a dental x-ray standard procedure for a traffic fatality?

(ETA again, I'm not suggesting an abscessed or cracked tooth would mitigate her culpability. There's no excuse for using alcohol as a painkiller when you know you have to drive.)

 

[zippitydoda]

Just to be clear, zip, I'm not excusing Diane when I say I doubt she made a conscious decision to commit suicide. You're right: in terms of culpability, it doesn't really matter what her motive was. I just want to understand because I think human nature is interesting and often best revealed in extreme contexts.

As for an abscessed tooth, however, are we absolutely sure an autopsy would have looked for such a thing? I know the general condition of the teeth is noted, but an abscess (or exposed nerve) isn't always visible with the naked eye. Is a dental x-ray standard procedure for a traffic fatality?

(ETA again, I'm not suggesting an abscessed or cracked tooth would mitigate her culpability. There's no excuse for using alcohol as a painkiller when you know you have to drive.)

Of course Nova. I'm just as curious as the next person as to why people commit such unthinkable acts, but sometimes a duck is just a duck and a monster is just a monster - we may never know why they did it - just that they did it.

 

[SwampMama]

Sadly there will be no final answers in this situation. There are so many whys and hows. I have read so much about it and watched the documentary and only have more questions rather than less. There are so many losers in this case, most of all Diane's son and the parents of the little girls. I cannot imagine the pain and loss they have endured.

I just think that with such a high BAC that she was in a blackout state and didn't have truly evil intent. I'm not saying she was innocent and made a simple mistake either. Extremely drunk people are usually hostile, defiant and oblivious to the danger they put others in.

She had lost control of the situation, panicked, tossed her phone because she knew she was going to be busted by her brother and made some incredibly stupid, sad and senseless choices. Even after all this time, the utter senselessness and the tragedy of it all still gets to me and haunts me to this day.

 

[Nova]

Of course Nova. I'm just as curious as the next person as to why people commit such unthinkable acts, but sometimes a duck is just a duck and a monster is just a monster - we may never know why they did it - just that they did it.

True. Personally, I don't want to call Diane a "monster" because, as a human being myself, I need to remember just how badly we humans can go astray. But I absolutely know what you mean.

 

[bondobbs]

Even after all this time, the utter senselessness and the tragedy of it all still gets to me and haunts me to this day.

Yeah me too. It's such a horrible thing. Sad, sad, sad.

 

[bondobbs]

Thank you so much for the discussion AND the demo video. (I found the latter a little perplexing in this way: it seems to be shot from "Diane's eye view", but then later it seems to be following another car also going the wrong way.) There's even a point on the ramp where the traffic from other side of the freeway is visible and makes it appear you are about to merge with traffic going to the left.

In any event, the video recreation clearly shows how a badly impaired person might miss the "wrong way" signs at the exit ramp, and once she got past them, there was nothing but oncoming traffic to tell her she was going the wrong way.

Well, the video was shot from a car going in the proper direction and then reversed, so it's a bit weird to watch. They were going 50 mph, I think. Can you imagine what it would have been like if the other cars were coming 55 mph (the speed limit there) or faster in the other direction? You're right the signs on the side could easily be missed. The documentary says that she blew past cars on the on ramp and there's only one lane so the other cars had to get over to the side. Suicide or no, she would have had to be seriously impaired to drive like that.

 

[rpd113]

The documentary says that she blew past cars on the on ramp and there's only one lane so the other cars had to get over to the side. Suicide or no, she would have had to be seriously impaired to drive like that.

That's why I still lean murder-suicide theory, despite the good points Nova and others have raised.

How could one make that difficult on-ramp maneuver and then drive "pin straight" for nearly two miles while blackout drunk?

And that's on top of Diane setting her phone aside and turning in the opposite direction after speaking to her brother and not touching another car or a guard rail or anything for several miles. These things show determination to me -- which happens to be how the last witnesses described it.

 

[Nova]

Well, the video was shot from a car going in the proper direction and then reversed, so it's a bit weird to watch. They were going 50 mph, I think. Can you imagine what it would have been like if the other cars were coming 55 mph (the speed limit there) or faster in the other direction? You're right the signs on the side could easily be missed. The documentary says that she blew past cars on the on ramp and there's only one lane so the other cars had to get over to the side. Suicide or no, she would have had to be seriously impaired to drive like that.

That makes sense, thanks. So the car the camera seems to be following was actually behind the camera and only ended up ahead when the video was reversed.

Yes, I have no doubt Diane was seriously impaired that day. And it seems that alcohol merely accentuated her tendency to drive aggressively and to believe she was always right.

 

[Nova]

That's why I still lean murder-suicide theory, despite the good points Nova and others have raised.

How could one make that difficult on-ramp maneuver and then drive "pin straight" for nearly two miles while blackout drunk?

And that's on top of Diane setting her phone aside and turning in the opposite direction after speaking to her brother and not touching another car or a guard rail or anything for several miles. These things show determination to me -- which happens to be how the last witnesses described it.

All good points. But I think Diane was drunk enough, she might have set her phone down and almost instantly forgot it was there. (Does someone want to refresh my memory? Was the phone ever found? If so, where?)

I probably told this story pages back, but when I was a sophomore at FSU in Tallahassee in 1973, we used to play a game: we would go to the local bar and booze it up all evening (the drinking age had just been lowered to 18), have one final drink at last call and then hop into a car. We would then spend the next 45 minutes (while our system absorbed the rest of the alcohol in our stomachs) speeding along back roads to Panama City, FL, which was normally an hour or more away.

The thing is, Tallahassee is in Eastern time while Panama City is in Central time. So if you made the hour-long drive in 45 minutes, you could make "last call" yet again at a bar in PC. And that was the game.

Of course, by then you were REALLY drunk and still had to drive back to Tallahassee, sometimes not getting there until nearly dawn. I won't say I did this many times, but I remember trying it once or twice and, by the return trip, I could barely find the highway.

The point is people can do a lot things (most of them really stupid) even when they are "blind" drunk.