A Pre Meditated Murder? or Accidental?

[trixi491]

You know, that's not really that far-fetched, IMO. How can we possibly know what goes through the mind of a mother who just murdered her 2 year old daughter? There has to be some reason Casey put the tape over Caylee's mouth.

True, but I'm saying most people think the duct tape completely disproves the theory that it was an accident so do you think if the defense says it was a total accident (perhaps Caylee drowned), that this was the only reason duct tape was placed on her mouth? And if a jury will buy that?

 

[Chilly Willy]

True, but I'm saying most people think the duct tape completely disproves the theory that it was an accident so do you think if the defense says it was a total accident (perhaps Caylee drowned), that this was the only reason duct tape was placed on her mouth? And if a jury will buy that?

Learning of the duct tape changed me from being an "accident" believer to a "premeditated" believer, however, if the defense were able to convince me that Caylee's death was an accident - and it would take an incredible amount of convincing including explaining away Casey's actions for the 31 days - I might buy the duct tape to keep out bugs scenario. I think a lot would depend on what theory the prosecution presents to explain the duct tape.

 

[jjgram]

You go girl......... PattieMarie !!!

Like any Mother w/1/2 a brain...or any love at ALL would ever...
do that to her child ~~ No matter what....
E V E R Y ONE ~ KNOWS ~ " NO ~ DUCT TAPE ON A CHILD'S MOUTH"

NOT NOW>>> NOT EVER ! ! !
and for
that fact.... HOW WOULD KC LIKE SOME DUCT TAPE ON HER MOUTH!!!!

It is Not made for that purpose !
ONLY A ~ K I L L E R ~ INTENDED for BODILY HARM & DEATH would
ever ......... ever do that ! !!!!!

& anyone who does... it.. and then wants to say "OOPS~sorry!"

well............... maybe that is how the PERP should get
to depart this earth !!!!!

JMO
jjgram

*** STILL SEEKING ~JUSTICE~ FOR LITTLE ANGEL CAYLEE ! ! !
MURDERED in June 2008 at the age of 2 years old !
with
DUCT TAPE FOUND ON HER SKULL & HAIR !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Chilly Willy]

Are u *ing serious?

I don't understand your reaction :waitasec:

 

[jjgram]

You can't be SERIOUS................
You don't really think it would EVER EVER EVER
be ok to put DUCT TAPE on A N Y ONE's MOUTH........

Now really............... ? ? ? ?

Are you kidding ???? Please answer me !

signed:
jjgram

 

[Chilly Willy]

You can't be SERIOUS................
You don't really think it would EVER EVER EVER
be ok to put DUCT TAPE on A N Y ONE's MOUTH........

Now really............... ? ? ? ?

Are you kidding ???? Please answer me !

signed:
jjgram

Where on earth are you getting the idea that I ever said it was okay?

 

[stellasmommyphd]

Where on earth are you getting the idea that I ever said it was okay?

jjgram and pattymarie are, i think, saying that it's not feasible to think someone would put duct tape on someone else's mouth unless they intended serious bodily harm and/or death.

personally, i'm not sure what i think about that assertion.

yes, a rational person thinking rationally would know better--duct tape is too hard to remove, and once you've duct taped your kid's mouth, even if she lives, now you run the risk she'll tell people mommy has been taping her mouth closed.

but in a rage, couldn't someone do all kinds of things that they don't MEAN to lead to death, but still inevitably WILL? think of shaken baby syndrome. often the baby shakers don't mean to kill the baby, right? couldn't something similar happen with a toddler?

 

[MarleneM]

I had a wild thought yesterday, and I'm not saying I believe this happened, but in case anyone wants to discuss it:

What if Casey were attempting to get Caylee to swallow a pill, some type of sedative, and Caylee refused or kept spitting it out. Could Casey have duct taped Caylee's mouth to keep the pill in until it dissolved? Between crying and possibly even vomiting, Casey could have aspirated. And then Casey could have put the heart sticker on the tape as a way to say, "Ooops, sorry sweetie" and then gone out partying?

Possibly. And then I would find KC guilty of Murder 1 and vote for the death penalty or LWOP (whichever I'm afforded).

 

[Chilly Willy]

jjgram and pattymarie are, i think, saying that it's not feasible to think someone would put duct tape on someone else's mouth unless they intended serious bodily harm and/or death.

personally, i'm not sure what i think about that assertion.

yes, a rational person thinking rationally would know better--duct tape is too hard to remove, and once you've duct taped your kid's mouth, even if she lives, now you run the risk she'll tell people mommy has been taping her mouth closed.

but in a rage, couldn't someone do all kinds of things that they don't MEAN to lead to death, but still inevitably WILL? think of shaken baby syndrome. often the baby shakers don't mean to kill the baby, right? couldn't something similar happen with a toddler?

Exactly. I never said at all that I felt it was a reasonable or harmless thing to do, or that I even thought it's what happened, it was just a thought that I had that might explain the duct tape. Unfortunately, people do all sorts of horrible things to babies all the time, and not even always in a rage. They lock their children in a closet or tie them up and don't give them food or water for days, and then they're surprised when the child ends up dead. A parent who can do such awful things doesn't think like the rest of us, there's a screw loose in their heads somewhere.

 

[Shaymus at The Rock]

jjgram and pattymarie are, i think, saying that it's not feasible to think someone would put duct tape on someone else's mouth unless they intended serious bodily harm and/or death.

personally, i'm not sure what i think about that assertion.

yes, a rational person thinking rationally would know better--duct tape is too hard to remove, and once you've duct taped your kid's mouth, even if she lives, now you run the risk she'll tell people mommy has been taping her mouth closed.

but in a rage, couldn't someone do all kinds of things that they don't MEAN to lead to death, but still inevitably WILL? think of shaken baby syndrome. often the baby shakers don't mean to kill the baby, right? couldn't something similar happen with a toddler?

Yes, I think that in a rage, a parent could do something awful that would result in a child's death. But duct tape ? I don't think so because you have to go and get the duct tape and then fight with the child and the duct tape to apply it. IMO, duct tape is a pain in the neck to get off the roll. Imagine how a panicked, wiggly and agile toddler would respond - assuming the baby was conscious. It just doesn't seem spontaneous to me.

Envisioning this is too sad, way too sad.

 

[Tinsel]

I think they are getting ready to plea it was an accident:
1) they have a new lawyer who specializes in accidents
2) they have stated again that when the whole story comes out, it makes sense

But IMO a jury wont accept this because of her character and lack of remorse.

 

[jjgram]

OK ChillyWilly... Ok... I see... You don't think it is right...

You made up a story that KC Might say...
OH this is what happened....

& Maybe from a BIG LIAR... KC .... Maybe...
But like they.... say... IT IS JUST * W R O N G * !!!
and
If a person does it... It would be murder...
It is WRECKLESS & DANGEROUS & IT WOULD BE AWFUL TO
TO
to a Innocent Child ~~ One who TRUSTED THEIR MOMMY ! ! !

and she would have had to have her hands tied... or the child
be unconscious ... cause it would make you want to fight to get the
tape off so you could breathe....
The tape is wider than a child's Mouth & Nose... therefore
breathing would be a ~ P R O B L E M ~~~ ! !

Sorry Chilly Willy.... It is just such a Disgusting thing to
even have to be saying that....
STUPID ADULT would do to a little HUMAN person ! ! !

I'll be quiet... It is just the skeleton of Little Angel CAYLEE ~
did indeed have the Duct Tape on her SKULL & HAIR !

Sorry...
I'm gonna have to
step back...

God Bless Everyone trying to bring JUSTICE for Little Angel CAYLEE !
someone did indeed place duct tape on her while she had
life in her !
Sad !
Sad !

jjgram

 

[wanetta]

Exactly. I never said at all that I felt it was a reasonable or harmless thing to do, or that I even thought it's what happened, it was just a thought that I had that might explain the duct tape. Unfortunately, people do all sorts of horrible things to babies all the time, and not even always in a rage. They lock their children in a closet or tie them up and don't give them food or water for days, and then they're surprised when the child ends up dead. A parent who can do such awful things doesn't think like the rest of us, there's a screw loose in their heads somewhere.

I totally agree - and I think it's very obvious by her actions, conversations we've been privy to, that she has something very wrong with her and I can't, in my mind, point to certain actions or statements made by Casey as meaning anything near what those same statements/actions by a normal person would mean. I'm still leaning toward accidental with bizarre cover-up, but could change as time goes on.

Probably 30 yrs ago, I lived in Houston. A bunch of us young gals hung out together all the time - one in particular we had worked with probably 3-4 years. Local news did a report one week on "women who had killed and got off" -- there was our friend!! She conveniently quit our company about 3 weeks before this aired - however, we were still in constant contact. From old newspaper reports, she got into fight with common-law boyfriend (term used back then), shot him, used hand saw to cut him into pieces, put him in garbage bags, drove him to California where her parents lived and tried to dispose of body there. She evidently had a good lawyer -- did 6 months. We, slowly weaned her from our crowd!ha She was a gorgeous young woman (late 20's) - looked like a fashion model and had a fantastic personality, and was raising 2 children. Her response to the newscast was that it was not true -- she had shot him in self defense and "he fell to pieces"....

 

[hornswoggled]

My previous post stated that I felt that her death was accidental. Actually, I feel that Casey did not intend for Caylee to die. But she was so intent on having her freedom to party that she overdid it on whatever she was drugging the child with. She absolutely endangered Caylee's life, and I don't think it was the first time. IMO that's why she couldn't call 911. She would still have been up on charges and probably sent away for a long time. In her mind, it was murder, not accidental. (It's murder in my mind also).

I have tried to look at this logically from all angles. If she had premeditated this for months, going to the trouble of doing research, etc, then why did she not plan on a better hiding place for the body further away and more remote? The fact that she carried body around in the trunk for 2-3 days tells me that she just didn't know what to do with it. I think she was in cover-up/panic mode. That's why she went to the neighbor for a shovel. That didn't work out for her. I believe that Casey had no idea of the amount of fluid that a decomposing body produces. The fluid was probably coming out of the nose and mouth (path of least resistance). In order to stem the flow of fluid, she tightly wrapped the duct tape around the mouth/nose area. Again, panic mode. She put yet another bag around the body. As far as the sticker, who knows how Casey's mind works? Maybe she had a moment of remorse and the sticker was handy, so she put it on the tape as a way of saying "sorry".

I have a problem calling this kind of death "accidental". It was no accident if she were sedating Caylee, and the child died. But if that is in fact the case, it was unintentional. I don't think Casey Anthony wanted to buy that much trouble. She just wanted to party without having to bother with a toddler. So my theory will have to fall into the accidental category instead of premeditated. But it's still murder IMO.

 

[Cat13067]

My vote is guilty of premeditated murder. Put the death penalty back on the table, and punish KC to the fullest extent of the law for murdering Caylee. My final words to KC have a seat in old sparky.

 

[trixi491]

Ok, so I recently looked at the Computer Forensics thread and downloaded the zip folder with some of KC's aim conversations that haven't really been out there. There were a few things Casey said that stood out to me:

casey o marie (10:49:54 AM):. i had to bribe my mom to take caylee outside this morning, so i could work
casey o marie (9:10:33 AM):mommy duties have kicked my butt lately i feel like i was in the gym for like 20 hours over the past few days

In this one she was talking about her upcoming vacation in June (possibly knowing she was going to do something to Caylee):
RPhawks330 (5:50:46 PM): well then ill just try and head down there, im not sure of my sched, but im gonna try
casey o marie (5:51:08 PM): i won't have the kid, so me coming up there will probably be easier. it's up to you

Lastly, the whole conversation with TL (17Tone) is just weird. First of all, she comes off as extremely desperate. He is talking to her like crap while she comes off as so desperate and skanky. There was a part in the convo where he was bugging her to let him come over but she couldn’t let him because it was too late and her parents and Caylee were sleeping. I believe she wanted out of that house permanently so she could be with him whenever but knew her parents (and maybe even Tony?) would have a problem if Caylee was always there. And all she does is talk about how in love with him she is (hadn’t they only meant maybe 2 weeks prior to this convo?). She also talks to some of the other people and says how crazy she is about him and has never felt this way. I really get the impression that she was obsessed with him and being with him, even if that meant she had to get rid of Caylee to live their perfect little life together. TL says he loved Caylee but if you look at the convo whenever KC brings her up, he doesn't acknowledge her or changes the subject, like he doesnt want to be bothered. She just comes off as being extremely desperate and willing to do anything to please him. The fact that 3 days after this conversation she moves out and Caylee goes missing just seems way too coincidental. After reading these new convos (well, new to me), I really see more of a motive and therefore pre-meditation.

 

[debbie0604]

My vote is guilty of premeditated murder. Put the death penalty back on the table, and punish KC to the fullest extent of the law for murdering Caylee. My final words to KC have a seat in old sparky.

I agree with you 100%. I think the evidence IMO points to premeditation. If it was an accident, she would have said it was an accident - by now at least... after what her mom and dad have been through...I mean, I'm not a big fan of CA but she's lost weight and GA is definitely heart broken. Especially after they found poor Caylee. KC has no conscience, no compassion, no heart. She cares for no one but herself. She wanted Caylee out of her life so she premeditated this by the internet searches..

I could go on.. but we know the story. She planned this. My biggest question has been all along.... (laying aside the horrendous evidence for just a quick moment).. but.. "What mother would drug their baby, or use any type of drug as a "babysitter".. to induce sleep on the child, so they can go out partying?".. and then when things go "awry", the defense can try to say "it was an accident"? I cannot even wrap my brain around drugging a baby. That's intentional when you drug a baby. One is "intending" on putting the baby out of the way so the mom won't be bothered by them. So as I said, laying aside the horrendous evidence, I cannot even call that one an accident.

 

[Rumpole]

Exactly. I never said at all that I felt it was a reasonable or harmless thing to do, or that I even thought it's what happened, it was just a thought that I had that might explain the duct tape. Unfortunately, people do all sorts of horrible things to babies all the time, and not even always in a rage. They lock their children in a closet or tie them up and don't give them food or water for days, and then they're surprised when the child ends up dead. A parent who can do such awful things doesn't think like the rest of us, there's a screw loose in their heads somewhere.

My guess is that KC falls into category of doing stupid suff when in a rage.

On this occasion she was generally mad at her own situation, possibly specifically in a rage over argument with Cindy. I think the flurry of calls were failed attempts to organise a sitter. Perhaps Caylee was crying/acting up and KC lost it! Possibly drugged Caylee, but certainly taped her mouth and arms and legs, and threw her in the trunk before heading to Tony's. She probably got so wrapped up in the liaison and/or doped up, that she left Caylee and later found her dead.

So...
NOT premeditated as in planned in advance, but certainly no Accident either.

I do not think under my proposed scenario, you can define it as premeditated murder, but certainly deserving of the full penalty of the law, and even DP if sought.

 

[EchointheDark]

Forgive me if this has already been hashed over; I've not seen it.

Re the duct tape over the mouth-- does anybody have a clue if KC owned or read a book "Aztec" by Gary Jennings? In the book, there's a scene of 2 small children who were selected for high honors, fed and washed and clothed in beautiful garments, paraded thru the streets, and then taken to a pool of water where tar or pitch (a sticky substance - like duct tape) was smeared over their noses & mouths, and then they were tossed into the pool. The point being so the children would die, in the water but not from it. I wonder if KC put the duct tape over the baby's nose&mouth, (vs just her mouth- as if that's not bad enough) and tossed her in the pool in some kind of ... well, that's just waaaaay too much work for KC, never mind....

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I agree with you 100%. I think the evidence IMO points to premeditation. If it was an accident, she would have said it was an accident - by now at least... after what her mom and dad have been through...I mean, I'm not a big fan of CA but she's lost weight and GA is definitely heart broken. Especially after they found poor Caylee. KC has no conscience, no compassion, no heart. She cares for no one but herself. She wanted Caylee out of her life so she premeditated this by the internet searches..

If it was an accident I don't think she would admit to that... it would prove that Cindy was right to call Casey an unfit mother. And as I think Nancy Grace noted Casey hated her mother more than she loved Kaylee.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Kaylee's murder was premeditated. She may have used chloroform to sedate Kaylee while she was out on the town, and that got her thinking about how chloroform could be used to take Caylee out of the picture.

If she have habit of chloroforming Kaylee while she partied, she may have kept Caylee in her car, knocked out. Maybe after she killed Caylee she detached from the reality of the situation and told herself that Caylee was just in the back knocked out but certainly not dead.