Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #176

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You must be referring to EF’s confession to his sisters? Yeah, nobody wants to talk about those!!
The Defense covered EF's confession and his sisters notification to LE in their Memo in support of Franks. They threw everyone from the Evil Odins to EF under the bus. We've talked about it here many times. EF has the mental capacity of a 7 yo, he told his sister he helped kill A & L as initiation into some type of gang, and lastly spit on her body.

I'm pretty confident that upon hearing that from EF's sister, LE would have tested EF's DNA and found out exactly where he was at the time of the murders. I also wonder how many other false confession they've had in this case over the years, and of course there is that hefty reward money, which I'm sure was a big motivator to some.

Why does anyone think that LE has to disclose their investigative theory and how they cleared anyone, especially POI's? That is not something that we the public are privy to. Just because the Defense snookerly got their 'theories' and POI's out under the guise of a memo in support of franks doesn't make any of it true.

JMO
 
Thank you.


So I assume then you haven't heard the recordings of the calls or read the transcripts of the calls. How then can you be certain that under no circumstances would the defense want them out there?
Because they've already been nailed for leaking evidence into the public domain prior to the trial.
 
The Defense covered EF's confession and his sisters notification to LE in their Memo in support of Franks. They threw everyone from the Evil Odins to EF under the bus. We've talked about it here many times. EF has the mental capacity of a 7 yo, he told his sister he helped kill A & L as initiation into some type of gang, and lastly spit on her body.

I'm pretty confident that upon hearing that from EF's sister, LE would have tested EF's DNA and found out exactly where he was at the time of the murders. I also wonder how many other false confession they've had in this case over the years, and of course there is that hefty reward money, which I'm sure was a big motivator to some.

Why does anyone think that LE has to disclose their investigative theory and how they cleared anyone, especially POI's? That is not something that we the public are privy to. Just because the Defense snookerly got their 'theories' and POI's out under the guise of a memo in support of franks doesn't make any of it true.

JMO
How exactly can EF’s admission to being there be a false confession? He had guilty knowledge of the CS before those details were even known by the public. It will be left to be seen whether or not LE followed through on the DNA testing and if those results are even available. LE appear to have a knack for losing exculpatory evidence. JMHO.
 
How exactly can EF’s admission to being there be a false confession? He had guilty knowledge of the CS before those details were even known by the public. It will be left to be seen whether or not LE followed through on the DNA testing and if those results are even available. LE appear to have a knack for losing exculpatory evidence. JMHO.
LE, ISP and FBI people. They've all conspired over 6 years to frame one innocent, nobody CVS worker for the heck of it. We're not talking 1,2 or 3 people, we're talking about dozens upon dozens of agents and employees from various agencies all working in conjunction to frame RA, who himself has since confessed to the murders.

We know that there were searchers that came upon the bodies and the CS. Of course, someone will tell one person and so on and so on. That is unstoppable, human nature. How do we know EF knew it before it was known by the public? That is a story repeated by the sister 2 weeks after the crime. Wasn't it circulating on SM at one time early on?

My whole point was we don't know anything about what the State has or hasn't done in terms of ruling out POI's, nor are they required to disclose that information to the public.

MOO
 
LE, ISP and FBI people. They've all conspired over 6 years to frame one innocent, nobody CVS worker for the heck of it. We're not talking 1,2 or 3 people, we're talking about dozens upon dozens of agents and employees from various agencies all working in conjunction to frame RA, who himself has since confessed to the murders.

We know that there were searchers that came upon the bodies and the CS. Of course, someone will tell one person and so on and so on. That is unstoppable, human nature. How do we know EF knew it before it was known by the public? That is a story repeated by the sister 2 weeks after the crime. Wasn't it circulating on SM at one time early on?

My whole point was we don't know anything about what the State has or hasn't done in terms of ruling out POI's, nor are they required to disclose that information to the public.

MOO

Yeah it all doesn't stack up.

If there was a case against EF why would they not just take him down? He's the perfect suspect. Why would law enforcement try to protect him instead of closing the case and claiming the glory?
 
How exactly can EF’s admission to being there be a false confession? He had guilty knowledge of the CS before those details were even known by the public. It will be left to be seen whether or not LE followed through on the DNA testing and if those results are even available. LE appear to have a knack for losing exculpatory evidence. JMHO.

Does any of this make sense though?

EF's sister goes to police and says hey my brother did it - he confessed - you've got him dead to rights, and law enforcement just decide not only to not take the easy win and closure of a highly political and embarrassing open double child murder, but actually to 'lose' the evidence?

Why would they do that?

Wouldn't they just take the W?
 
Anyone here get a chance to watch Crime Nation? If so, care to share your thoughts? Or maybe no one is interested in watching it, anyway, TI
Apparently, on Wednesdays (after the Tuesday night show) you can free-stream Crime Nation 2 hour program. So ... here's the link ... and if folks want to watch free ...

although ... (and I'm not sure) you might have to find time today to watch it for free on this link:

Crime Nation - A Town Torn Apart by Murder | Stream Free

This documentary did no favors to the State. Point of view is unique. This one is made while LE and the family are court-gagged. So no LE or family interviews. Uses sourcing from ex-command members/FBI/profiler/an expert prosecutor. Uses classmates of A & L. Uses other locals. Checks in with the opinionated youtubers. That alone makes this a different documentary than all the others.

The end of this documentary's timeline is right when the D "resigns" but before details on the leak were known and before the SCOIN Writs were docketed.

I was able to sit through the 2 hours - IMO - it's engaging enough - with new faces, new commentary (at least for me). It's very sad that the DELPHI case is such hot mess that - 7 years in - it's a premier-worthy true crime documentary. Reflecting upon the incompetence that FAILED these children - big time - can be an important reality check.

JMHO
 
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Crime Nation is a beautifully produced true crime show. AshBan is always good. It's only fair to present other views as well. I applaud them for their fairness and willingness to listen.

RA is 5'4" , he is really strikingly short which is unusual.

I think they have his DNA and should proceed accordingly. RL is a bad man and there is a small chance he was involved somehow, but I think he would have ratted out the person if he knew anything. Same with KAK , he is a rat like no other rat . mOO
 
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Why wife's father was killed by a serial killer when my wife was only 9 years old. The killer was caught and convicted several years later.

The pain of that loss haunts her to this day. She experiences major abandonment fears that come out as latching onto and almost smothering people who are dear to her.

Everyone has their own journey when dealing with murder in their family.
I said the exactly the same thing at the end of my post. As I specified before, I am in no place to judge or add my two cents in because they know what would best provide them with a sense of justice whiling both honoring and dignifying their daughters and their legacies. I acknowledge and respect that each case and each family and individual involved have their own experience and perceptions in it.

Since each state is different, I was just thinking more about how such processes potentially Indiana work in the state of Indiana and how survivors and families of victims are engaged in the decision making process and how and when information pertaining to it is given.

I was wondering this too because of the multifaceted impact the arrest and the pre-trial process has already had on the Libby’s and Abby’s families, based on theirs and McLeland’s interviews, and how the court will balance and reflect the needs and wants of Abby’s and Libby’s loved ones, which altogether make quite a large group, going forward. I think this will be particularly interesting and interesting to observe because of the faith Matt and Becky Patty have expressed in McLeland to represent them, especially in light of the gag order.

More importantly however, my condolences to your wife and her family for the horrible loss of her father. No one should have their right to live and to do so safely and freely because of the debased impulses or desires of another individual. Doesn’t matter what that killer was going through or thought he was seeking, it did not trump or take priority over the fact her father was entitled to live and it never will. His body was not put on this Earth to serve as a means or a tool for his killer. I hope she and her family were able to get justice and the closure and answers they deserve.
 
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Does any of this make sense though?

EF's sister goes to police and says hey my brother did it - he confessed - you've got him dead to rights, and law enforcement just decide not only to not take the easy win and closure of a highly political and embarrassing open double child murder, but actually to 'lose' the evidence?

Why would they do that?

Wouldn't they just take the W?
Not necessarily in my mind. I don’t believe EF was there alone or was solely responsible for this gruesome act. Maybe it became a “can of worms” (or rather serpents) nobody wanted to open. It’s my opinion based on what I have read and seen. As they say, pictures are worth a thousand words.

I want nothing more than to see this go to trial, as I have not out of hand ruled out that RA may have had a roll, I’m just not seeing it based on what has come out. I feel the P’s case is very weak. Again, it’s my opinion for the time being. Clearly, I am in the minority but that doesn’t bother me. Anyone that believes conspiracies of silence and manipulation do not exist, hasn’t lived long enough. Again, JMO.
 
Not necessarily in my mind. I don’t believe EF was there alone or was solely responsible for this gruesome act. Maybe it became a “can of worms” (or rather serpents) nobody wanted to open. It’s my opinion based on what I have read and seen. As they say, pictures are worth a thousand words.

I want nothing more than to see this go to trial, as I have not out of hand ruled out that RA may have had a roll, I’m just not seeing it based on what has come out. I feel the P’s case is very weak. Again, it’s my opinion for the time being. Clearly, I am in the minority but that doesn’t bother me. Anyone that believes conspiracies of silence and manipulation do not exist, hasn’t lived long enough. Again, JMO.

OK but then in order for your theory to work there has to be some kind of wider conspiracy that meant law enforcement avoided arresting one of the killers and instead hid his guilt

I think you need pretty clear evidence before anyone takes that as a serious thing
 
OK but then in order for your theory to work there has to be some kind of wider conspiracy that meant law enforcement avoided arresting one of the killers and instead hid his guilt

I think you need pretty clear evidence before anyone takes that as a serious thing
Well, last time I checked, we’re ALL theorizing. I’ve read plenty of theories here. Mine just happens to include the possibility of a conspiracy. If RA is guilty of involvement along with others, why isn’t he striking a plea deal and rolling over on the rest of them? I’m as sure as I am that I’m sitting here typing, that one man did not do all that was done that dreadful day. EF knows who else is involved and that’s why they dropped that ball, IMO. I believe it was intentional to protect others they are associated with. Not all LE, but some. It wouldn’t be the first time justice gets perverted because of “connections.”

That’s all I have to say on that and it’s all MOO :).
 
Well, last time I checked, we’re ALL theorizing. I’ve read plenty of theories here. Mine just happens to include the possibility of a conspiracy. If RA is guilty of involvement along with others, why isn’t he striking a plea deal and rolling over on the rest of them? I’m as sure as I am that I’m sitting here typing, that one man did not do all that was done that dreadful day. EF knows who else is involved and that’s why they dropped that ball, IMO. I believe it was intentional to protect others they are associated with. Not all LE, but some. It wouldn’t be the first time justice gets perverted because of “connections.”

That’s all I have to say on that and it’s all MOO :).

fair enough!
 
Yeah it all doesn't stack up.

If there was a case against EF why would they not just take him down? He's the perfect suspect. Why would law enforcement try to protect him instead of closing the case and claiming the glory?

because:

1) at the time CCSO was focused on another theory (RL)
2) all focus on Libby's phone video and RL was a match
3) the EF lead came from outside CCSO and CCSO regularly kept outside support at bay
4) the team that worked the Rushville gang leads, passed them to CCSO ... and CCSO failed/chose not to follow up
5) CCSO rejected outside help and expertise when legions of help and high expertise was critically necessary.
6) the locals were (unwittingly) permitted to contaminate the crime scene.

pick one or all.

I have been struggling with these same questions. More recently, it became clearer to me the assumptions behind my analysis, behind my questions ... were incorrect.

For example. Your questions logically assume a standard LE environment.

But if we look back and form questions with the assumption that CCSO operated with the competence expected from a metro police organization - what if we're using the wrong filter? Using the wrong assumptions?

As discovery is revealed, it's being confirmed that assumed standards of competence and practice, the ability to team with outside experts and to take advantage of expertise did not exist at Delphi/CCSO.

(IMO, we tend to make the same mistaken assumptions with the CC court in this case. )

I've grown weary of generosity towards CCSO's disaster of an investigation regarding those critical first days. IMO, CCSO (albeit unintentionally) failed A & L.

Delphi is a small town ... CCSO was not up to this herculean task (both re: forensics and leads) and was not open to expert help ... and so ... it is very frustrating but ... is what it is.

We no know that the investigation missed follow-through on critical leads handed to them in the first weeks, and destroyed taped interviews. And that this investigation failed to let the crime scene speak by blocking the experts that do "speak" crime scene, by failing to protect evidence and chains of custody, and by permitting site contamination.

JMHO

OK but then in order for your theory to work there has to be some kind of wider conspiracy that meant law enforcement avoided arresting one of the killers and instead hid his guilt

I think you need pretty clear evidence before anyone takes that as a serious thing

Carrying forward the idea that we might need to change our filter ... perhaps there need be no wider conspiracy. There is just incompetence and the inability to publicly acknowledge it. And the unspoken rule to avoid blowing mistakes in until absolutely necessary (deposition/testimony).

(The scale of incompetence is slowly coming out from ex-members of the larger command; it was bound to; they'll all be on the stand describing the incompetence ... because it's also their job to tell the truth under oath.)

for example: I'm LE in Rushville and I field local leads, do initial legwork and conduct and tape initial interviews of witnesses and possible suspects and lie detectors and alibis and collect phones and write search warrants for phones and put it all together in reports and pass them to CCSO and ... it is normal for me to think my work here is done and CCSO will follow-up.

The fact that CCSO never followed up - is something we've learned years into this case ... from depositions. That's doesn't need to be a conspiracy. That can just be weak police work.

JMHO
 
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Scheduling for March 18: The 9 am Session is for the Contempt Motion hearing.

Gull below formally notes (Feb 8th) that she approved the D's request to push the previous Contempt Hearing Date which was previously scheduled February 12th. (And transport for RA for February 12th cancelled.)
1708549552747.png
 
Theoretically speaking ... how is the D supposed to prep for a conflicted hot mess of a Contempt Motion that the Court denies Clarification about?

In between Clarification Motion and Postpone Contempt Hearing Motion and this new Scheduling Motion and 2 Denials ... Hennessey announced Subpoenas for the Contempt Hearing.

So ... maybe they clarified stuff via a conference (not on the docket).

Also Ausbrook was DENIED last Thursday for goodness sake (all Gull's denials have a Feb 15th date).
What's Appellate-Ausbrook's next move?

jmo

My goodness give me more tea leaves please. o_O
 
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because:

1) at the time CCSO was focused on another theory (RL)
2) all focus on Libby's phone video and RL was a match
3) the EF lead came from outside CCSO and CCSO regularly kept outside support at bay
4) the team that worked the Rushville gang leads, passed them to CCSO ... and CCSO failed/chose not to follow up
5) CCSO rejected outside help and expertise when legions of help and high expertise was critically necessary.
6) the locals were (unwittingly) permitted to contaminate the crime scene.

pick one or all.

I have been struggling with these same questions. More recently, it became clearer to me the assumptions behind my analysis, behind my questions ... were incorrect.

For example. Your questions logically assume a standard LE environment.

But if we look back and form questions with the assumption that CCSO operated with the competence expected from a metro police organization - what if we're using the wrong filter? Using the wrong assumptions?

As discovery is revealed, it's being confirmed that assumed standards of competence and practice, the ability to team with outside experts and to take advantage of expertise did not exist at Delphi/CCSO.

(IMO, we tend to make the same mistaken assumptions with the CC court in this case. )

I've grown weary of generosity towards CCSO's disaster of an investigation regarding those critical first days. IMO, CCSO (albeit unintentionally) failed A & L.

Delphi is a small town ... CCSO was not up to this herculean task (both re: forensics and leads) and was not open to expert help ... and so ... it is very frustrating but ... is what it is.

We no know that the investigation missed follow-through on critical leads handed to them in the first weeks, and destroyed taped interviews. And that this investigation failed to let the crime scene speak by blocking the experts that do "speak" crime scene, by failing to protect evidence and chains of custody, and by permitting site contamination.

JMHO



Carrying forward the idea that we might need to change our filter ... perhaps there need be no wider conspiracy. There is just incompetence and the inability to publicly acknowledge it. And the unspoken rule to avoid blowing mistakes in until absolutely necessary (deposition/testimony).

(The scale of incompetence is slowly coming out from ex-members of the larger command; it was bound to; they'll all be on the stand describing the incompetence ... because it's also their job to tell the truth under oath.)

for example: I'm LE in Rushville and I field local leads, do initial legwork and conduct and tape initial interviews of witnesses and possible suspects and lie detectors and alibis and collect phones and write search warrants for phones and put it all together in reports and pass them to CCSO and ... it is normal for me to think my work here is done and CCSO will follow-up.

The fact that CCSO never followed up - is something we've learned years into this case ... from depositions. That's doesn't need to be a conspiracy. That can just be weak police work.

JMHO

I think you are right that this will be what the defence argue at trial.

Rather than try to assemble some huge conspiracy to protect the Odinist killers, they just say it was bureaucratic failure and infighting between rival teams. So no on was trying to protect EF - rather investigators preferred a different theory.
 
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