Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #177

[mrjitty]

The way I see it - the killer didn't take his phone with him to the murders - because that would obviously be very very silly.

I can think of a lot of examples where the killer turns his phone off on the way to the murder scene, then turns if back on when safely away.

The defence already told us that RA's phone was not connected to the crime scene.

 

[snooptroop88]

The way I see it - the killer didn't take his phone with him to the murders - because that would obviously be very very silly.

I can think of a lot of examples where the killer turns his phone off on the way to the murder scene, then turns if back on when safely away.

The defence already told us that RA's phone was not connected to the crime scene.

That's NOT good, seriously, for D, MOO obviously. That speaks volumes. It's worse than a damning clothing "match up," it's worse than even his confessions. If the CS was "unsecured" before they recovered the bullet, it may be worse even than the bullet. He's the one who said he had the phone. It's going to be crystal clear if he didn't have it why he'd later be noting he did. Had he admitted early on he didn't have it, that would be another matter. But there was the "stock ticker" on the phone. Is it 100% certain he didn't have it on him at all on the trails that day? Or is it just not connected to the "crime scene" specifically? I would think it may depend on how they're defining "crime scene."

 

[Spartygirl]

Thanks for your work here.
Also on page 1 of this thread is Skipaboo’s map. There’s a handy measuring tool on there.
It’s in feet not yards ( yards was the measuring unit used in yesterday’s filing). And meters which is no help to this lady.
I guess my second thought would be define crime scene. Did it start at the abduction point? Does it include where clothing was found in creek? Or is it limited to where these sweet girls were found?
Because it can greatly expand that 60-100 yard area.

I have a map measured in Feet and in Yards but NOT with the latest cell phone info.
Maybe I can send them to someone who has the pings and they can input the pings ???

 

[katydid23]

Have been studying this very basic little map here: Delphi murders - Google My Maps

To end up at the point where the victims were ultimately found, they had to cross that creek. Why make it so they had to cross the creek? Why create that very difficult extra step? Had this been one person that committed this crime, there's no way I think there would have been any creek crossing. This was a premeditated attack with multiple perps involved, MOO. MOO: The spot where they'd cross the creek was already arranged: maybe a shallow area, maybe a narrow area where they could put a plank across, maybe stones were laid out for crossing. Again MOO, one of those perps was much younger, and might even have familiarity with either or both of the girls, and this would explain the younger sketch being circulated. One perp's vehicle was probably parked at/near the cemetery that was in the vicinity of where the girls were found. If that were the case, it would make sense to cross the creek. One or perhaps two of the murderers-- probably the muddier, blooder of those involved-- would be leaving via a vehicle parked at that more secluded location. BG approached the victims from behind, but other perp(s) had already trekked over the trail from the opposite direction. By doing this, they could effectively make sure nobody else was in the vicinity on that trail at the time of the attacks. Also by involving multiple perps, you have the possibility that at least one of those perps will have some strange cult-like interests that might have resulted in the rune, strange positioning of articles at the recovery site. If one of the perps was indeed into cult Odinism, the date of the murders is definitely of interest in light of the importance of that date for pagan rituals. And the crossing of the water might be of interest beyond just logistics. Source: "In Norse Mythology, Old Norse literature and Folk traditions there is this recurring theme of having to cross water to reach the afterlife – or the Otherworld." The fact that the bullet recovered from the site was beneath the surface, sort of buried-- that would be of interest with this idea, too. Usually, I don't look for collusion, it's too hard to find because it's too difficult for obscene, perverted, violently dangerous perps to trust each other to keep their mouths shut. But I do wonder if that's not involved here. And they may not all have kept their mouths shut. We don't know who's cooperating with the authorities. JMO, it's interesting that the Marathon gas station noted in association with KK is six minutes from the cemetery. And from what I saw on sources, LE searched the Wabash River with metal detectors. I also wouldn't usually look for Odinism aspects in a crime, either, but with the rune (and it does look like a rune, MOO), the date of the killings, the staging-- I don't think that can be ignored. It had to have some source. Multiple perps could explain that, each bringing his own individual twisted pathology to the scene. Not sure what the common bond would be for the perps, but there is one. I doubt it's the Odinism, though.

Could it be someone trying to make it look like Odinists did the crime?

 

[katydid23]

If she removed NMcL now for this blunder I might never stop laughing. This trial has devolved into a massive comedy of errors. Let’s hope that if she does remove him she holds a hearing first (only half kidding).

What about the previous blunders on the part of the defense team? Should they be removed for leaking sealed docs?

 

[Marzipan]

That's NOT good, seriously, for D, MOO obviously. That speaks volumes. It's worse than a damning clothing "match up," it's worse than even his confessions. If the CS was "unsecured" before they recovered the bullet, it may be worse even than the bullet. He's the one who said he had the phone. It's going to be crystal clear if he didn't have it why he'd later be noting he did. Had he admitted early on he didn't have it, that would be another matter. But there was the "stock ticker" on the phone. Is it 100% certain he didn't have it on him at all on the trails that day? Or is it just not connected to the "crime scene" specifically? I would think it may depend on how they're defining "crime scene."

I get why everyone thinks it’s so damning if he didn’t have his cell with him at the bridge when he said he did, as I agree, but I don’t get why everyone thinks that’s a hard thing for a defense attorney to wave away in front of an impartial jury. “He was mistaken, he’s been there lots of times, he was thinking of another time, do you remember what you were doing with your phone that day” etc, etc. They’re good attorneys. I think they have bigger challenges, e.g., items seized from the home and possibly from the car, shed, and yard — maybe even bombshell testimony from a family member. MOO.

 

[snooptroop88]

I get why everyone thinks it’s so damning if he didn’t have his cell with him at the bridge when he said he did, as I agree, but I don’t get why everyone thinks that’s a hard thing for a defense attorney to wave away in front of an impartial jury. “He was mistaken, he’s been there lots of times, he was thinking of another time, do you remember what you were doing with your phone that day” etc, etc. They’re good attorneys. I think they have bigger challenges, e.g., items seized from the home and possibly from the car, shed, and yard — maybe even bombshell testimony from a family member. MOO.

Totally agreed with you on this. I don't bring a cell phone with me "everywhere I go." Lots of people don't. And usually, I wouldn't think this would be that big a deal, either. But he noted he had it with him. I picture someone who just murdered someone, and he's concerned at this point, he's worried. That would be even more pronounced if he's the "jittery" type. He decides to go to the authorities to essentially "rule himself out." He wants to report it, but draw as little attention to himself as possible. So he's of course going to be like, oh, yeah, I had my phone. (Translation: "You can check me out if you really want to! You can check on the phone, I had it! Not me! Plain as day!") Of course by being so "transparent," he's minimizing the chances they'll check him out at all. And that's pretty much what happened at that time. So I know to others, this might seem dismissible and something that can be handled. And maybe it is. But it would be enough for me, seriously. I'd be incredibly concerned if that turns out to be the case that he really didn't have it after all. All MOO.

 

[katydid23]

I’m sorry, I’m just not buying your view that the defence are the only baddies in this three ring circus. Could they have done better. Yes. But I doubt AB texted MW, “hey Mitch, I’m in my office on the phone but the war room is open and I’ve left all the good stuff out there for you. Take some pics, will ya, make sure you send them to RF so he can forward them to MRC. Need to get that stuff out asap to the podcasters.”
JMO

I think that^^^ is pretty close to what happened. Those sealed documents and photos were left unsupervised, on a table, in an unoccupied, unlocked room. That is negligent , IMO.

 

[katydid23]

I hope it the truth and nothing confidential is in that google drive since he sent it to people that have nothing to do with this case.

I still don’t understand on why he is not providing this info to LE but directly to the judge instead. (Not a lawyer but seems like the content should be passed along to LE to investigate. ) I must be completely missing the boat on why LE was bypassed. Thank you for the responses all.

My guess would be because the defense is placing LE together with the prosecution and claiming they are the enemies here. The judge is supposed to be the unbiased arbiter of Justice.

So sending the files to the judge makes sense, to me anyway.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

I found a diamond in the rough... HUGE! Seriously though, I did find a little gem that might save all of us some time searching for articles, okay I'll share... simply because we are all here for the same thing... justice for Abby and Libby.

You're welcome!!

Delphi Murders

WRTV Indianapolis news coverage of the killings of Abby Williams and Libby German. Follow the timeline of events in the fight to bring the Delphi murderer to justice.

www.wrtv.com

 

[sunshineray]

The way I see it - the killer didn't take his phone with him to the murders - because that would obviously be very very silly.

I can think of a lot of examples where the killer turns his phone off on the way to the murder scene, then turns if back on when safely away.

The defence already told us that RA's phone was not connected to the crime scene.

And yet RA himself has said it was...twice actually. Once when he gave his phone info to the CO for his phone's identification and more directly when he said during LE interview he had and was using his phone at the trails on February 13, 2017.

 

[mrjitty]

And yet RA himself has said it was...twice actually. Once when he gave his phone info to the CO for his phone's identification and more directly when he said during LE interview he had and was using his phone at the trails on February 13, 2017.

did he say it in the police interview?

 

[Megnut]

did he say it in the police interview?

P. 4 of the arrest affidavit. Says he was watching the stock ticker on his phone.

He said he didn't take any photos or videos with his phone.

Unsealed Probable Cause Affidavit - Richard Allen, Delphi | PDF | Arrest Warrant | Probable Cause

Unsealed Probable Cause Affidavit - Richard Allen, Delphi

www.scribd.com

 

[sunshineray]

did he say it in the police interview?

I believe that's when he said when he was walking to the bridge checking his stock ticker?

 

[snooptroop88]

15. It is reasonable to conclude that if Tony Liggett had notified Judge Diener that certain people not named Richard Allen, nor connected to Richard Allen, were moving in and around the crime scene then Judge Diener would not have signed the affidavit, especially based upon the paucity of evidence otherwise contained in the affidavit connecting Richard Allen to the murders.

16. Said geofencing information would have provided evidence to Judge Diener that negated Richard Allen's presence at the crime scene. Ligget should have told Judge Diener that crucial, relevant and exculpatory information which had been available since 2017, especially when Liggett's affidavit was written in October, 2022, over five years later.

...So where was RA's phone, then, and when? Because RA put himself at the CS (bridge) in this same approximate (rough) timeframe. Clearly, the bridge had to have been included in the geofencing range. Where's RA's little dot on the map, and at what times does it appear? The "exculpatory" quality of all of this would depend on the answer, if the map in fact exists, and people have already noted how difficult it is to get those warrants. The P has already noted they think others are potentially involved, so while this geofencing is extremely interesting, it's not necessarily "exculpatory." It could end up being the opposite, all MOO.

 

[mrjitty]

I believe that's when he said when he was walking to the bridge checking his stock ticker?

yes but in the tip narrative

i think we don’t know what he said in his formal interview

 

[mrjitty]

15. It is reasonable to conclude that if Tony Liggett had notified Judge Diener that certain people not named Richard Allen, nor connected to Richard Allen, were moving in and around the crime scene then Judge Diener would not have signed the affidavit, especially based upon the paucity of evidence otherwise contained in the affidavit connecting Richard Allen to the murders.

16. Said geofencing information would have provided evidence to Judge Diener that negated Richard Allen's presence at the crime scene. Ligget should have told Judge Diener that crucial, relevant and exculpatory information which had been available since 2017, especially when Liggett's affidavit was written in October, 2022, over five years later.

...So where was RA's phone, then, and when? Because RA put himself at the CS (bridge) in this same approximate (rough) timeframe. Clearly, the bridge had to have been included in the geofencing range. Where's RA's little dot on the map, and at what times does it appear? The "exculpatory" quality of all of this would depend on the answer, if the map in fact exists, and people have already noted how difficult it is to get those warrants. The P has already noted they think others are potentially involved, so while this geofencing is extremely interesting, it's not necessarily "exculpatory." It could end up being the opposite, all MOO.

agreed. weak sauce and i fail to see why it should have been included in the SWA

 

[snooptroop88]

I disagree.

RA places himself on the trail, and provided his phone identifiers within a day or so of the crime - his unique identifier was recorded in the tip narrative and he said he had the phone with him and used it on the trails. If that phone wasn't found in the geofence warrant, in that 5 hour window the defence suggests, it is incriminating,

You already had it, I just figured it out for myself five minutes ago, LOL. Totally agree, that's big trouble for D if it's the case, and this seems like a "be careful what you wish for" moment waiting to happen.

 

[Megnut]

yes but in the tip narrative

i think we don’t know what he said in his formal interview

Ah, the confusion was mine. You're right. Thst was the late-recovered tip narrative about the stock ticker on his phone.

In the October, 2022 interview, at least what's included in the AA, he was watching fish.

What we don't know:

What else he may have said
What else he didn't say
What they asked him
What evidence they may have presented him with
Whether his answers were adapted to that information
Whether he did or didn't have his phone
Whether it was off, in airplane mode or left elsewhere
Whether he had another phone
Whether he left the scene with any phones

Eager to see the digital forensics in this case.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

15. It is reasonable to conclude that if Tony Liggett had notified Judge Diener that certain people not named Richard Allen, nor connected to Richard Allen, were moving in and around the crime scene then Judge Diener would not have signed the affidavit, especially based upon the paucity of evidence otherwise contained in the affidavit connecting Richard Allen to the murders.

16. Said geofencing information would have provided evidence to Judge Diener that negated Richard Allen's presence at the crime scene. Ligget should have told Judge Diener that crucial, relevant and exculpatory information which had been available since 2017, especially when Liggett's affidavit was written in October, 2022, over five years later.

...So where was RA's phone, then, and when? Because RA put himself at the CS (bridge) in this same approximate (rough) timeframe. Clearly, the bridge had to have been included in the geofencing range. Where's RA's little dot on the map, and at what times does it appear? The "exculpatory" quality of all of this would depend on the answer, if the map in fact exists, and people have already noted how difficult it is to get those warrants. The P has already noted they think others are potentially involved, so while this geofencing is extremely interesting, it's not necessarily "exculpatory." It could end up being the opposite, all MOO.

Just jumping in here to check status on this case. Has the trial begun yet? Aren’t these kind of arguments brought up during trial? Why are they arguing all of this evidence in the news media when the prosecution can’t respond to the defense? Why is this being allowed and will Indiana ever get this trial back on track?

I’ve never seen a situation where the alleged killer and his barely qualified defense team are allowed to completely hijack the process. At this rate it seems unlikely this trial will ever be completed.

Are there federal charges that can be brought against the defendant? Perhaps that’s the best option at this point. It’s tragic how badly this has been handled, but maybe it’s time to move on to Plan B.

JMO