Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #178

[sunshineray]

On the one hand people are complaining that the FM contained WAY too much information and now lamenting that something wasn’t included?? Perhaps just like the P are keeping things back, maybe the D did to. JMT

Talking about two separate things here. The later is inaccurate/incomplete reporting on testimony.

The former is a memorandum filed by the defense that violated a gag order by including discovery information AND contained wild speculation, inaccuracies and outright lies.

With both hands it's more likely the D have acted with gross negligence. All Just My Opinion

 

[sunshineray]

I understand that some folks remain open to the presumption of innocence while awaiting trial.
And I understand that others lean one way or the other - as to the Defendant's guilt.

However, I've not seen where folks "don't want the case to go to trial".

I've noticed that critical thinkers and those more familiar with rules of evidence, (regardless of the side they may lean to), have begun to question whether or not this case can make it to trial for technical (due process/rule of law) reasons.

(See repetitive Motions to Dismiss filed to date, and consider the likelihood of more dismissal motions ahead once all discovery withheld by the P has been received and reviewed by the D.
See also BRADY ... 1963 U.S. Supreme Court case Brady v. Maryland.)

Anyway, considering potential roadblocks to trial - such as when Prosecution fails to fully share exculpatory evidence with the Defense by deadline doesn't mean folks "don't want the case to go to trial".

JMHO

For what its worth, things should move quickly along now and we'll likely learn quite a bit more on those details we are all very curious about with the flurry of pretrial motions and hearings ahead.

The defense's actions have been atrocious and continue to be. MOO, they don't want a trial at all and the best they can come up with are shenanigans. The last and final straw was their witness list for their contempt hearing. It's all just a game to them, to poison the jury pool. But I doubt very strongly the trial will start in May. I'll be very shocked if it does. AJMO

 

[susiQ]

"...how would you explain away EF’s admission to his sister’s..."

If I can respond, and only my speculation. Possibly EF was trying to look important and heard rumors about the search details. I assume we will hear what his sister said during trial. Not sure if her statements were made public. What is more important to me is that his sister did indeed report to LE what she heard. AND LE did investigate the report.

At this point I can only go on what LE did once EF was investigated and/or what they did not do. LE did not charge EF. Which leaves me to believe LE does not believe EF was involved or LE does not have enough evidence to charge him with a crime. Also, I do not believe this was some type of religious ritual. The killer may have a religious path, mainstream or not, however I do not believe that is why the girls were murdered.

Well, we have some common ground. I’m not 100% convinced it was a ritual sacrifice, and if not, it appears someone knew enough to make it look like one. Who could that be and why would they do that? I have a hard time believing it was RA. Why? The D stated in the FM that there was nothing linking RA to Odinism or the Odinists. They could not say this if it was not true. They cannot just outright lie about stuff. One would think if he staged this crime scene he would have to know how to “fake it” and nothing was found on his devices. RI said it was a murder scene like he had never seen before and felt there were three “signatures.”

EF was more likely to know something, but how much with limited intellect? EF is linked to BH <modsnip: no source link>. We know there was a connection between BH and PW. No denying that. PW did not like JM and likely didn’t care for the company he kept either. Then we have AH testifying about the “falling out” between BH and PW, but both give differing reasons for it. I have to assume, someone is lying. BH tells AH it’s about an argument during a ritual in the woods. He also tells her that he can’t protect her from PW if she keeps asking questions. Look at PW, not at me. PW would be an easy target for BH to frame up as they both practice Norse pagan ritual with runes and the like. BH posted enough on his FB for all to see. Conversely, it would be easy for PW to frame up BH. Why I think that is less likely is because PW didn’t care for JM who is connected to EF who was connected to BH and EF shooting off his mouth about being there. It’s interesting that BH and PW were tipped in. I wonder how many times? Was RA EVER tipped in?? Do we know?

I’m not blowing sunshine off PW’s bottom, he’s had some serious issues according to MyCase, but the fact that we can’t hear what BH said in his 2017 interview and that we just learned that PW’s interview was NEVER recorded to begin with, how can we have any confidence in this investigation?

All we can do now is hope there’s enough proof to hold those responsible accountable and that there will be some justice at the end of all this. I without an iota of doubt believe there was more than one involved in the brutal murder, possibly 3. JMO

Thanks for your response!

 

[Emma Peel]

Agree we don’t have enough information here.
Big points need precise statements. It seems these witnesses have been coached to allude. TC described a kidnapping of an “individual” named Wiener. Leaving room for speculation and sound bytes.
Now we have AH saying she “saw photographs of the girls with stick formations”. What girls? When? Where did you find the pictures? Were the sticks literal trees, a woodpile, game? Were the girls alive? Where they taken from crime scene? Who took them?
If you want to have a compelling witness you don’t have them dance around facts.
Simple statements please!
It’s not hard. My conclusion Belie! Belie! Belie

May I shamelessly disagree?
Information = sunlight. I welcome it.

We're going to continue to get glimpses of evidence (sometimes incomplete) that we may or may not see again at trial with the upcoming pre-trial pleadings, witnesses, experts and arguments.

I'm going to speak only for myself here:
So long as new information is coming via the court proceedings ... under fair play ...
I'm not one to complain that the public's having a pre-trial peek at that information - from either side - from sworn witnesses, pleadings, exhibits or whatever ... throughout this pre-trial process.

It will all be filled in soon enough.

JMHO

 

[susiQ]

Talking about two separate things here. The later is inaccurate/incomplete reporting on testimony.

The former is a memorandum filed by the defense that violated a gag order by including discovery information AND contained wild speculation, inaccuracies and outright lies.

With both hands it's more likely the D have acted with gross negligence. All Just My Opinion

Oh, think there’s more than enough negligence to go around! 5 years of it. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Well, we have some common ground. I’m not 100% convinced it was a ritual sacrifice, and if not, it appears someone knew enough to make it look like one. Who could that be and why would they do that? I have a hard time believing it was RA. Why? The D stated in the FM that there was nothing linking RA to Odinism or the Odinists. They could not say this if it was not true. They cannot just outright lie about stuff. One would think if he staged this crime scene he would have to know how to “fake it” and nothing was found on his devices. RI said it was a murder scene like he had never seen before and felt there were three “signatures.”

EF was more likely to know something, but how much with limited intellect? EF is linked to BH <modsnip>. We know there was a connection between BH and PW. No denying that. PW did not like JM and likely didn’t care for the company he kept either. Then we have AH testifying about the “falling out” between BH and PW, but both give differing reasons for it. I have to assume, someone is lying. BH tells AH it’s about an argument during a ritual in the woods. He also tells her that he can’t protect her from PW if she keeps asking questions. Look at PW, not at me. PW would be an easy target for BH to frame up as they both practice Norse pagan ritual with runes and the like. BH posted enough on his FB for all to see. Conversely, it would be easy for PW to frame up BH. Why I think that is less likely is because PW didn’t care for JM who is connected to EF who was connected to BH and EF shooting off his mouth about being there. It’s interesting that BH and PW were tipped in. I wonder how many times? Was RA EVER tipped in?? Do we know?

I’m not blowing sunshine off PW’s bottom, he’s had some serious issues according to MyCase, but the fact that we can’t hear what BH said in his 2017 interview and that we just learned that PW’s interview was NEVER recorded to begin with, how can we have any confidence in this investigation?

All we can do now is hope there’s enough proof to hold those responsible accountable and that there will be some justice at the end of all this. I without an iota of doubt believe there was more than one involved in the brutal murder, possibly 3. JMO

Thanks for your response!

One of RA's defense attorney's lied outright to the judge in chambers.

 

[Boxer]

I believe that Richard Allen is Bridge Guy. And I believe that Bridge Guy is the person who said Down the hill...and forced Abby and Libby down the hill to their deaths. From what I can see we have solid evidence that Richard Allen was this guy, not anyone else. He was there, at around the time, was on the bridge, was wearing what BG was wearing and wasn't seen after the time of the murders. I think the admissions and the bullet will add to this evidence. I don't know what happened down the hill, but my thoughts are that RA committed the murders himself.
To me, we just haven't seen enough evidence to back up the EF/Odinist angle. We have TC suggesting that it wasn't followed up well enough, but does he actually know this? He wasn't part of the Delphi team, so how would he know? As far as I can see the people were cleared and there is no evidence placing them at the scene. From what I have heard of the crime scene, the sticks are likely to be some kind of signature, but whether they are religious has not and cannot be determined (apart from by the murder(s) himself/themselves.
So to EF's statements, while they could be something, to me they are not strong enough unless there is actually some evidence that he was there. If his alibi is found to be not reliable, and something ties EF to the area on the day I'll be much more interested.

Aside from the fact RA was on/near the bridge and wore clothing depicted on the man in the video, I would like to know why pretty much everyone in law enforcement and local courts decided to pin the crime on some innocent CVS employee with all this evidence of "Odinists" apparently laying around. What makes RA a better perpetrator to stand before a judge than what your Average Joe would probably describe as weird culty people? Think of those headlines.**

** Not saying they are, but many people would think that.

Aliens stole the cookies.

 

[susiQ]

One of RA's defense attorney's lied outright to the judge in chambers.

Are you referring to when Rozzi said he would recuse himself due to the leak? Please tell me that’s not what you’re referring to? He was caught off guard by JG for which she in the end got her hand slapped by the SCOIN.

BR likely went home, thought about the whole unfairness of what was done, being forced to recuse without a proper hearing, and decided to fight it. Good on him! He changed his mind. Who can blame him. Not the SCOIN as we witnessed. Have you never changed your mind about something, especially when you were caught off guard in a situation and once you had the time to think about it said, “Heck NO! I’m not doing it” ??

 

[Boxer]

Are you referring to when Rozzi said he would recuse himself due to the leak? Please tell me that’s not what you’re referring to? He was caught off guard by JG for which she in the end got her hand slapped by the SCOIN.

BR likely went home, thought about the whole unfairness of what was done, being forced to recuse without a proper hearing, and decided to fight it. Good on him! He changed his mind. Who can blame him. Not the SCOIN as we witnessed. Have you never changed your mind about something, especially when you were caught off guard in a situation and once you had the time to think about it said, “Heck NO! I’m not doing it” ??

Caught leaking explicit crime photos of young girls from their case.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

May I shamelessly disagree?
Information = sunlight. I welcome it.

We're going to continue to get glimpses of evidence (sometimes incomplete) that we may or may not see again at trial with the upcoming pre-trial pleadings, witnesses, experts and arguments.

I'm going to speak only for myself here:
So long as new information is coming via the court proceedings ... under fair play ...
I'm not one to complain that the public's having a pre-trial peek at that information - from either side - from sworn witnesses, pleadings, exhibits or whatever ... throughout this pre-trial process.

It will all be filled in soon enough.

JMHO

I want light as well as long as it shines on the truth.
I was very disappointed when the glimpse we got from the latest court testimony of TC being misrepresented. If he had spoken more precisely- his words couldn’t have been misinterpreted so easily.
Same with AH’s reported testimony- I guess she got booted before the cross examination because she made a wild statement that was extremely vague and no follow up questions were asked.
I honestly think this may have been misreported as it’s the first I have heard of it and I follow both sides on the social media gambet.

 

[layer]

I’m not 100% convinced it was a ritual sacrifice, and if not, it appears someone knew enough to make it look like one.

I'm not even convinced it did look like one. I sure haven't seen the crime scene photos. It certainly appears that some people in LE believed it did. Say what you will about the odin junk, the defense didn't originally come up with it.

All JMHO

 

[Boxer]

I'm not even convinced it did look like one. I sure haven't seen the crime scene photos. It certainly appears that some people in LE believed it did. Say what you will about the odin junk, the defense didn't originally come up with it.

All JMHO

MOO I believe "odd" was the word used, maybe also "childish."

 

[layer]

I want light as well as long as it shines on the truth.

THIS^
I'd like to say I want justice but we are way beyond that. There is no justice for Libby and Abby. Justice would have been for them to come home on Feb 13th with ample details to put away the person(s) that messed with them for a long, long time.
All those years, entire lifetimes for both girls, can never be returned. Nor can they be taken away in equal measure from RA or whoever did it. Justice is imperfect and I hate looking at the sausage being made. I have no interest in following this trial.
I just finally want the truth.

 

[susiQ]

MOO I believe "odd" was the word used, maybe also "childish."

Well, they are certainly not the words the expert, Jeffrey Turco, used. As well, RI said it was a crime scene like nothing he had ever seen before, non-secular, with 3 signatures. I don’t recall the word “childish” being used. There was nothing at all “childish” about the crime scene. It was a nightmarish scene, I’m sure. JMO

 

[susiQ]

Caught leaking explicit crime photos of young girls from their case.

Not at all. MW was the man charged and rightly deserved to be. I have seen no proof whatsoever that AB supported what MW did. No doubt AB learned a valuable lesson through this and that should be the end of it. IMHO

 

[Ravenmoon]

From the 3/18 hearing
0.53 mm
Holder's wife testified to seeing pictures of the girls with stick formations around them
and she says he met Abby Williams multiple times.

WLFITV

I am confused by the way the reporter states that part of his report.

She testified to seeing several pictures of the girls with sticks around them?

How?
And are we talking about drawings, paintings or photographs? How would she have been able to see the photos?

Then he goes on to say something about " He met Abby several times."
Who? Brad? If that was true, Abby would have recognized him. It was her boyfriend's dad!

 

[FrostedGlass]

EF's slowness/mental capacity has been tossed around a lot and I have no recollection where that came from.
Could someone please provide the link to anything official as to his mental development?

I'll apologize in advance if I've used any wrong words in the above statements.

 

[steeltowngirl]

The only source for this misinformation is the interrogation transcript. There is no such statement by LE.

It was never shown that KAK was involved in a network of of CSAM degenerates. There have been numerous arrests for this in Indiana in the past few years, I have posted some of them on the KAK threads. I don't recall any "networks" in Delphi or Carroll County, so DC was not talking about that with his vague questions of "why did it happen here" etc.
I haven't seen any arrest of anyone that was shown to have a connection with KAK.

I have said before on here that it happened, but have since looked, and also not found confirmation from LE that the A_Shots profile was in contact with Libby on the day of the murders.

But, BP stated that she “knows for a fact” that the A_Shots profile communicated with Libby. Starting around 2:20:

New lead found in the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams | Fox News Video

Senior correspondent Laura Ingle on the recent finding that a fake Instagram account could have led to the murders of two Indiana teens in 2017.

video.foxnews.com

KAK may have confirmed to BM that ISP alleged it to him:
“HLN reporter Barbara MacDonald reported she spoke with Kline in December after the Indiana State Police indicated Kline's social media profile "anthony_shots" was of interest in the Feb. 13, 2017, killings of Libby and Abby.”

HLN reports: ISP told man 'anthony_shots' profile was last communication with Libby

HLN reporter spoke with Kegan Kline, creator of anthony_shots profile who said ISP told him he was a person of interest in the killings of Libby and Abby.

www.jconline.com

 

[sunshineray]

Are you referring to when Rozzi said he would recuse himself due to the leak? Please tell me that’s not what you’re referring to? He was caught off guard by JG for which she in the end got her hand slapped by the SCOIN.

BR likely went home, thought about the whole unfairness of what was done, being forced to recuse without a proper hearing, and decided to fight it. Good on him! He changed his mind. Who can blame him. Not the SCOIN as we witnessed. Have you never changed your mind about something, especially when you were caught off guard in a situation and once you had the time to think about it said, “Heck NO! I’m not doing it” ??

Yes it is. Then he admitted in his letter his thought process at that moment was to tell the judge a falsehood.

 

[sunshineray]

May I shamelessly disagree?
Information = sunlight. I welcome it.

We're going to continue to get glimpses of evidence (sometimes incomplete) that we may or may not see again at trial with the upcoming pre-trial pleadings, witnesses, experts and arguments.

I'm going to speak only for myself here:
So long as new information is coming via the court proceedings ... under fair play ...
I'm not one to complain that the public's having a pre-trial peek at that information - from either side - from sworn witnesses, pleadings, exhibits or whatever ... throughout this pre-trial process.

It will all be filled in soon enough.

JMHO

The public is not due information until trial, unless the public is in danger by not having it.
An example to that in this case, IMO, was when LE denied the murders had anything to do with online/SM. The one lone LE (cannot remember the name) that did say something about (paraphrasing) parents should know what their kids are up to online, he did the right thing, barely...IMO.

Attorney's are not supposed to try and plead their case in the media while under a gag order nor by filing motions/memos using protected discovery as a way to get around that...unless cleared beforehand by the court. AJMO