Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #187

[girlhasnoname]

Not enough to bury itself in the ground though, right?

Has a gun been recovered with the same bullets and serial numbers because it is that that will put RA at the scene of the crime for sure if he is the owner and it wasn't reported stolen.

I wonder if they found the gun to that bullet.

It didn't say buried IN the ground, I think the unspent round fell out in the commotion of all that was going on, or RA might have placed it there symbolically.

According to the lab testing from ISP they did find it. RA's gun SS226 recovered from his home in the search was a match to the bullet ejector markings. Of course, like a lot of testing, it is up for interpretation and ISP stated as much, but Indiana does allow ballistic testing to be presented in Court.

RA said he had never been at that location, didn't know RL, never loaned his gun to anyone, never reported it stolen during his Oct 13th interview with LE.

JMO

 

[dub]

^did he hang around for an hour? I’ve not seen this.

SBM sorry, I could have been more specific on this point.

Between the time stamp on Libby’s photo and the sighting of (presumably) BG walking down the road, he could have hung around the scene for up to an hour or longer.

Based on available info about the CS, staging, etc. what do you think is the minimum amount of time he could have been there in total?

(I am curious about people’s thoughts on this, as wasn’t it a point in the original FM that there “must” have been multiple perps bc one person “couldn’t” have done all that in that block of time?)

In any case I think that point in the Franks is BS and it easily could have been done alone by someone of RA’s physique in 20 minutes or so, but even if he hung around for 20 minutes instead of an hour I don’t think that changes the level of brazenness much at all.

 

[dub]

Some are geographic killers, transient, one off types - well, all kinds exist really including those that will commit murders in familiar known territory.

Samuel Little was a transient type of killer whereas Israel Keyes chose the USA as his killing grounds and didn't care who he targeted as long as it wasn't a child and he would probably not have got caught had he not broken his own rules by killing on his own turf so close to home whereas Mike Debardeleben remained under the radar for years and committed all kinds of crimes including counterfeiting. In fact, I'm almost certain that that is what got him caught - it was actually the counterfeiting that lead them (police and detectives) to discovering that he was possibly a serial killer.

So, some will kill in or near their home or work locations (even the next town or two over) as it is familiar and known to them whereas others will do it elsewhere so as to keep that distance and separation.

I’m aware of all this, but the point is even with that in consideration, I can’t think of a single serial murder with similar elements plus lingering at the crime scene close to home for an extended period.

The closest thing (and it actually is a very similar murder) was Westly Allan Dodds first murder:
-Double homicide
-Kids
-Knife
-Public park in (I think) broad daylight
-Relatively close to home

That was in a big urban area, I am unsure about witnesses, and while the crime wasn’t quick per se I don’t believe he lingered afterward. But it’s pretty close, and may also be a useful point of comparison because it was his first murder, rather than one after he was already “experienced”.

A word of warning: anyone unfamiliar with Dodd who is considering looking him up, his crimes are absolute nightmare fuel - proceed with caution.

 

[photographer4]

RA isn't going anywhere, even if there is a mistrial IMO. The State would just recharge him and do it all over again.

<snipped & BBM>

What happens if you have a mistrial?​

If a mistrial occurs, the current trial is terminated and considered "void," according to Britannica. This means that the prior proceedings are no longer valid, and the process for a new trial must begin with the same parties and charges but a new jury (if there is a jury).

Because a mistrial is neither a finding of innocence or guilt, a prosecutor in a criminal case can decide to retry the defendant.

What is the meaning of mistrial? Unpacking what the court term means for a defendant

If it’s a mistrial hopefully he’d end up with a new judge.

 

[photographer4]

Denied without a hearing is a valid ruling.

EBM: Need more coffee, worded incorrectly

I’m behind - didn’t she say she would rule by some specific date on the most recent one or few? If so perhaps that is the problem?

 

[photographer4]

Yes.

During the hearing, the defense expressed worry that the prosecution would take up too much time during the trial, and requested 15 working days to present.

The trial has already been pushed back and extended several times since Allen’s arrest. The most recent trial dates were set for May 13 – 31.

Special Judge Gull responded to the request by saying she couldn’t ask the jury to extend past the dates already set for May, adding that two and a half weeks should be sufficient time for the case.

Prosecution replied saying that they tried to “cut the fat” as sufficiently as possible. Prosecutors planned to call 45 witnesses with a projected end date of May 25, which would give the prosecution seven days to present outside of jury selection.

Judge postpones Delphi murders trial following defense's request for 'more time to present'

The trial for Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen has been pushed back until October 2024, special Judge Gull ordered Tuesday.

www.wishtv.com

Well to me, If the persecution was presenting that many witnessed and taking that long to get through the case, I would have expected the defence should have similar time to refute their case. It doesn’t seem ok to me that one side would get more time by so much than the other.

 

[MiniMoo]

It didn't say buried IN the ground, I think the unspent round fell out in the commotion of all that was going on, or RA might have placed it there symbolically.

According to the lab testing from ISP they did find it. RA's gun SS226 recovered from his home in the search was a match to the bullet ejector markings. Of course, like a lot of testing, it is up for interpretation and ISP stated as much, but Indiana does allow ballistic testing to be presented in Court.

RA said he had never been at that location, didn't know RL, never loaned his gun to anyone, never reported it stolen during his Oct 13th interview with LE.

JMO

In the ground is different to on the ground, but at least they have 3 photos of the bullet.

As for ballistic testings being allowed in court! Yes!

That interview will likely be used in the trial to prove that he lied.

 

[TTF14]

IMO we have the defense and their youtubers to thank for that. I totally support keeping cameras out of the courtroom considering the circus-like atmosphere that will bring. I do hope it can be audio live-streamed to a the news media room.

Not according to Judge Gull. She blames the media outlet, but doesn't specify what exactly they did wrong.

Also, wouldn't allowing cameras/livestreaming be a good thing due to the size of the courtroom? Then, some people who are intending to be there in person can just stay home and watch it.

 

[Salah11]

The bullet is important because it places him at the murder site. Thats why the defense want it thrown out.

RA caught by his own words again as he claims he has never been to the murder site and never loaned his gun to anybody and yet in some miracle twist of fate his gun magically managed to eject a cartridge by two dead bodies which places him at a place he claims he has never been with his gun.

mooooooo

 

[twall]

Indiana is an open carry and concealed carry state except automatic rifles and in certain locations:

<snipped>

Indiana is a licensed open carry state. This means that you can open carry with the state license based on the shall issue policy.

You do not need a permit to open carry long guns in the state.

Indiana gun laws preempt local regulations of firearms in the state.

There are also restrictions of firearms in Indians; therefore, you cannot possess assault weapons in the state.

Indiana Open Carry: Laws, Requirements, Application & Online Training – GLS Tactical

No permit for cc law changed July 1, 2022. Before that date a cc permit was needed.

 

[ClearAhead]

Well to me, If the persecution was presenting that many witnessed and taking that long to get through the case, I would have expected the defence should have similar time to refute their case. It doesn’t seem ok to me that one side would get more time by so much than the other.

Have you followed any trials before? I’m repeating what’s been mentioned several times here already with regards to why the P and D are not usually allotted equal time.

You are mistaken if you believe the P presents what they think happened, then when that’s over it’s the D’s turn to present what they think occurred and after that the jury votes the defendant guilty or to acquit based on the greater likelihood between the two opposing theories, so then it’s not a fair trial if both sides are not given equal time to present their case. That’s might be how Judge Judy does it on TV but it’s NOT the format of criminal trials. The burden of proof AlWAYS rests on the P to prove their theory to the jury beyond reasonable doubt. The D isn’t required to prove anything, their role is solely attempting to cast doubt on the State’s case.

Trump's lawyers rested their case after calling just 2 witnesses. Experts say that's not unusual

NEW YORK (AP) — Donald Trump’s legal team rested its case Tuesday in his hush money trial after calling just two witnesses and opting not to have the former president take the stand in his own defense. But despite what Hollywood courtroom dramas might suggest, that isn’t all that unusual...

toronto.citynews.ca

“Most of the work of defense lawyers, Krissoff and other experts said, happens during cross-examination of the prosecution’s witnesses, when they can challenge their testimony and credibility.

“The defense narrative comes through during cross-examination, then they will tie it all together during the closing statement,” she explained.

It isn’t unusual for defense lawyers to call just a few witnesses of their own, or none at all.”

 

[Jade]

It's interesting that with all their verbosity Richard Allen's attorneys haven't put forth any expected nominal defense for RA such his alleged real movements pre and post bridge lurking.

Back to the Heavy article:

I’d love to get a look at the screen to see what RA was doing on his phone when Kathy had to ‘stalk’ him to the car when he ditched her while out on their big day.

RA looks less than thrilled to see her. He definitely wasn’t into spending time with her when she was so happy and it’s their anniversary and there he is a grump in the car waiting.

Video at link

[...]
Kathy posted a video on Facebook in 2016 that showed Ricky sitting in a car. She wrote:

Had a great weekend with my hubby. Went Christmas shopping at Castleton Square Mall and Von Maur store is one of my favorites especially during the holidays. They have a live pianist and I love the holiday decor and atmosphere. Ricky however about fell asleep waiting for me to finish shopping, then I ‘stalked’ him out in the parking lot waiting in our car. Had a great 25th anniversary dinner at Ruth’s Chris in Carmel. Best steak EVER!
[...]
Kathy Allen, Richard Allen's Wife: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

I believe KA may have suffered more than we know with RA. He seems mean and uncaring. His blank personality must have had her filling in with thoughts and feelings not contributed by him but assumed by her.

His superficial engagement, eating steak, and quietness, falling asleep at her favorite store, must have seemed obedient to the point of her even supporting him in court where he coldly rejected her.

all imo

 

[steeltowngirl]

SBM sorry, I could have been more specific on this point.

Between the time stamp on Libby’s photo and the sighting of (presumably) BG walking down the road, he could have hung around the scene for up to an hour or longer.

Based on available info about the CS, staging, etc. what do you think is the minimum amount of time he could have been there in total?

(I am curious about people’s thoughts on this, as wasn’t it a point in the original FM that there “must” have been multiple perps bc one person “couldn’t” have done all that in that block of time?)

In any case I think that point in the Franks is BS and it easily could have been done alone by someone of RA’s physique in 20 minutes or so, but even if he hung around for 20 minutes instead of an hour I don’t think that changes the level of brazenness much at all.

I agree with you. He could have done it alone in 20 minutes. Bryan Kohberger is accused of stabbing 4 people to death in Idaho in something like 16 minutes.

jmo

 

[steeltowngirl]

Well to me, If the persecution was presenting that many witnessed and taking that long to get through the case, I would have expected the defence should have similar time to refute their case. It doesn’t seem ok to me that one side would get more time by so much than the other.

Prosecution estimated 7 days. Defense requested 15.

 

[somequestions]

Fair enough, but maybe RA walking bloody and muddy like he'd gotten into a fight would have been much more noticeable at the MF entrance vs Old County Road N300.

Is the MF entrance closer from where the girls were found?

MOO

Yes, the Mears Farm Entrance is closer to where the girls were found.

If we are to believe the witness who saw RA while driving her car at 3:57pm, then he was at least muddy and probably wet. In order to avoid the Hoosier Harveststore camera while walking back to his car on 300 N he could have walked back into the trail area through the Mears Farm entrance to walk the rest of the way along the trail back to his car.

But the timing means that Liberty German's father and the flannel shirt guy and probably others were already on the trail walking around. Richard Allen must have gotten very lucky to miss running into any of them since I think they would have mentioned seeing someone walking around on the trails who was muddy and wet.

 

[somequestions]

Thank you SG, I believe RA wanted to be as inconspicuous as possible especially after committing the murders.

He didn't do a very good job of that by going to a conservation officer right after the crime to tell them he was there.

 

[m00c0w]

He didn't do a very good job of that by going to a conservation officer right after the crime to tell them he was there.

Several people saw him on the trail, and he admits seeing them and having been seen by them. If they identified him (which he had no idea if they would be able to), it would look super weird that he didn't come forward immediately. In fact, this seems to have worked pretty well in his favor because you have people arguing that him having done that somehow means he probably didn't do it... which is exactly the point of having done it.

JMO

 

[TTF14]

Several people saw him on the trail, and he admits seeing them and having been seen by them.

RSBM

None of the witness statements that we know about even match each other, according what's been revealed in the Franks memo (that cites discovery from the State, depositions, etc. to support their claims). So, we really don't know who saw RA, or who else they may have seen that DID match their statements. We also don't know who RA saw....do we? Do we have confirmation he saw BB? Did he describe her?

IMO MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

But the timing means that Liberty German's father and the flannel shirt guy and probably others were already on the trail walking around. Richard Allen must have gotten very lucky to miss running into any of them since I think they would have mentioned seeing someone walking around on the trails who was muddy and wet.

This would be true regardless of who the killer was. Someone murdered two girls in those woods and exited without being seen by DG or FSG.

If RA is BG, and IIRC, we don’t know if he went back to his car immediately after the murders. We don’t know when his car left the ‘old farm’ or CPS building. We don’t know if RA himself, or if it was someone else who was driving his vehicle when it left that building.

jmo

 

[ClearAhead]

Prosecution estimated 7 days. Defense requested 15.

This was how the D got the trial delayed. But IMO the real issue was they needed additional pretrial time to attempt to get incriminating evidence thrown out.

FM 1, 2, 3, 4 - As others here have mentioned, the search must’ve found something VERY incriminating against RA, so incriminating that the D is desperate for it to get tossed, so desperate as to create an very elementary Odin theory. Does anyone else think the D really believes they could prove the Odins done? I don’t, I think the theory just happened to be the best shot to base the FM on - not losing sight of the fact the entire point of a FM is to have the results of the search become inadmissible evidence, never to see the light of day, NOT to solve the case by naming an alternative suspect.

It can’t be fairly said there’s no evidence against RA because all the FMs prove otherwise. If the Judge won’t give them a FM hearing - which is just going to waste more time, still no guarantee the search would be ruled illegal - then Plan B is to get a new judge.

MO and JMO