Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #188

[MiniMoo]

The part that stood out to me about Richard Allen's interrogations in October 2022 was that he said he was willing to voluntarily give LE his phone(his current one?) until he felt during that interrogation that they were accusing him of the Delphi murders.

If Richard Allen really is bridge guy, he sure wanted to do whatever he could to help the police prove the case, without realizing this was a possibility.

When was the first time the unspent bullet became public knowledge?

He may have had no idea about that until it was brought up to him face to face.

To volunteer without a fight and put yourself at the scene on the day (the trail, car park spot or bridge) is either a person that really is innocent or thinking they've got away with murder because not much evidence ties them to those girls or the crime scene.

Libby's video recording didn't turn up a concrete suspect and neither did those two composite drawings.

 

[sunshineray]

Him being there doesn’t make him as killer by default imo. I’d like to see how the State ties it all together to build what I hope is a solid case.

I think it will be his own words of confession that brings it all together. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

The ISP work should be called “Much Ado About Nothing.”

This doesn’t refer, of course, to the case itself, the tragic victims or their tirelessly advocating for justice relatives. Just to the fact that we heard so much and LE had so little.



So how is typically unspent cartridge ejected? Is it an extractor or ejector that does the job? I know there was a Murdaugh case with the discussion about the unspent bullets, but I didn’t follow it at all. I would assume that criminology of unspent cartridge is complicated, isn’t it? But to eject an unspent cartridge, technically, should be an easy process?

How do we know that those who submitted the tip didn’t merely eject the bullet from RA’s gun later, then go and plant the bullet? We have a case of the median income of 34,202 in 2023 for Carroll County, Indiana, and the reward sum, 325-350K? And I think the reward will be paid off as ISP is immensely hard-pressed to close this case.

Concerning the State's case, we aren't privy to all the evidence that they have...yet. MO

 

[mrjitty]

The place for this testimony would be at trial. The defense is basically asking to test run part of their defense strategy so they can adjust it before trial. That's not the purpose of a Franks motion, and I would argue that having to bring in experts to testify about this matter would completely undermine the concept that Liggett would have knowingly and intentionally lied in the probable cause affidavit.

If the concepts are so hard to understand that they would have to bring in experts to sift through raw data in order to make their case to the judge... are they also then claiming that Liggett completely understood this same data as a layperson and knowingly and intentionally misled the court regarding the data?

It's self-defeating.

JMO

BIB. This is also what I find disingenuous about these supposed Franks motions

They are trying to litigate a potential key trial issue in the context if a search warrant PCA. Why would any of this complex info have been in the warrant?

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Expert testimony is already defined by Indiana trial rules:

(a) A witness who is qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education may testify in the form of an opinion or otherwise if the expert's scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will help the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue.(b) Expert scientific testimony is admissible only if the court is satisfied that the expert testimony rests upon reliable scientific principles.

Rule 702 - Testimony by Expert Witnesses, Ind. R. Evid. 702 | Casetext Search + Citator

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In the state's response to the defense's fourth franks motion, the state reveals that the defense deposed ISP Sergeant Greg Edwards back in February, to document his review of the pings and evidence. In order for him to provide his opinion of this technical subject matter, he would have to be considered an expert under Rule 702.

The state then quotes Sergeant Edwards verbatim for several paragraphs where he explains the pings, how they work, and that the pings shift over to historical records when the phone can no longer be contacted. At least half of the state's discussion of pings is literally Edwards' testimony, and most of the further discussion is based on this testimony as juxtaposed with the defense's claims.

Lastly, this isn't a motion to decide if the jury hears the experts, nor is it a motion to decide if the case gets thrown out. It's a motion to have a hearing to decide if the search warrant is suppressed because it was unlawfully obtained.

If the defense just wants the experts to be heard, they will 100% be heard and cross-examined during the jury trial.

JMO

Thanks for this

I had not twigged that Edwards qualified as an expert but it makes sense now.

 

[sunshineray]

I find it curious why he doesn’t specifically mention the 4:33am ping or explain how that specific ping is being misconstrued.

My own opinion of reading this motion is that I want NMs explanation stated outright. I don’t want to have to pick and chose bits and pieces of the motions to add all up to come to my own conclusion of what this person is attempting to say, or what they are trying to get the reader to think he is saying.

MOO

My own opinion is the State Prosecutors are not writing these motion's with the general public in mind. They're doing their job not concerning themselves with trying to make sure the general public understands.The punlic really doesn't even become relevant at trial either for there will be just the jurors to convince. That's their job, not making sure every person online interested in the case is fully informed. We get to observe what we can. We take what we can get and discuss, expecting anything else, IMO, is futile. AJMO
Of course when all is said and done with this trial, in the future there will be books to read I'm sure.

 

[sunshineray]

I was under the impression that the search was called off at a certain point for the night ? I believe the scanner was publicly broadcasted as well so anyone listening would know what was happening.

I don’t know what evidence really exists that the entire crime occurred at that one location. MOO There’s suggestions of searchers claiming they walked right through the spot the girls were found and the interview with K.Reilly discussing the contamination from searchers, like stopping to pee and it being 15 feet from where the girls were found.

All MOO

Officially the search was called off but many searchers stayed and continued to look for the girls.

 

[WildHuncher]

So how is typically unspent cartridge ejected? Is it an extractor or ejector that does the job?

You pull back the slide against spring resistance. A hook around the cartridge rim pulls it back until it strikes a projecting rod and is tumbled out through a port. A similar thing happens when the gun is actually fired, except of course an empty shell case is what flies out the port.

How do we know that those who submitted the tip didn’t merely eject the bullet from RA’s gun later, then go and plant the bullet? We have a case of the median income of 34,202 in 2023 for Carroll County, Indiana, and the reward sum, 325-350K? And I think the reward will be paid off as ISP is immensely hard-pressed to close this case.

So much speculation here. Do we know that RA was betrayed by a submitted tipster? Do we know anyone but RA had access to his gun? He told police he never lent it out. Do we know the bullet was found later in some second processing of the scene after it had been left unsecured? When was this bullet supposed to have been planted?

This is Occam’s Razor stood on its head. What if there was no tip? What if the bullet was found in the immediate crime scene processing once the girls were found?

Is someone setting RA up? How did they get him to go to the north end of the MHB on that fateful day? Who is this someone? BG, the real killer? What happened? Back up a little and tell us a coherent story.

Here’s example of a coherent story. RA is BG. He was there at the north end of the bridge. That’s him in Libby’s video crossing to the south end approaching the girls. He said “Guys, down the hill.” He brandished the gun and racked the slide at one or more points in the abduction and murders that followed.

No need to posit players not in evidence that way. Simple and understandable once you accept that people exist who do those things and this was a case of that.

 

[FromGermany1]

You are correct. <modsnip> Other people continued searching in the dark, contaminating the crime scene, possibly including the killer/killers.

You are able to light up a football field, but not able to light up a forest/trail enough to find two missing girls (or possibly a hidden perpetrator). A pity actually.

 

[Salah11]

I'm curious why you think them wanting experts to weigh in is desperation on their part. Can you explain?

Because their client has no alibi so are now trying to change when the murders now occurred. It reeks of desperation IMO.

 

[MiniMoo]

Officially the search was called off but many searchers stayed and continued to look for the girls.

So...

At any given time the perpetrator could have returned to the scene of the crime a second+ time and especially if, as pointed out before, some of those searchers may have been as far as 15 feet from the girls before they were found.

I wonder if RA was a part of the initial search party or parties.

 

[sunshineray]

Addressing the questions about Libby's phone pings, Kelsei in 2019, while trying to clear up the flood of online rumors said this...

"Kelsi said Libby’s phone pinged off two different towers, leading some to believe the phone had been moved. The pings happened, she explained, because the towers were close together. The phone never moved, she said"

https://fox59.com/news/sister-of-delphi-murder-victim-takes-to-youtube-to-dispel-rumors-defend-family/

 

[Salah11]

Addressing the questions about Libby's phone pings, Kelsei in 2019, while trying to clear up the flood of online rumors said this...

"Kelsi said Libby’s phone pinged off two different towers, leading some to believe the phone had been moved. The pings happened, she explained, because the towers were close together. The phone never moved, she said"

https://fox59.com/news/sister-of-delphi-murder-victim-takes-to-youtube-to-dispel-rumors-defend-family/

Yep it simply doesn’t make sense that the perp took them away to then bring them right back when loads of people were searching.

Just another attempt by the defense to shift blame away from RA as they know they can not place him anywhere else in that window.

IMO MOO

 

[sunshineray]

When was the first time the unspent bullet became public knowledge?

He may have had no idea about that until it was brought up to him face to face.

To volunteer without a fight and put yourself at the scene on the day (the trail, car park spot or bridge) is either a person that really is innocent or thinking they've got away with murder because not much evidence ties them to those girls or the crime scene.

Libby's video recording didn't turn up a concrete suspect and neither did those two composite drawings.

In the PCA being released

 

[sunshineray]

Yep it simply doesn’t make sense that the perp took them away to then bring them right back when loads of people were searching.

Just another attempt by the defense to shift blame away from RA as they know they can not place him anywhere else in that window.

IMO MOO

Correct it's only local that IF the girls had been taken away, they'd never have been found where they were found. MO

 

[Salah11]

Correct it's only local that IF the girls had been taken away, they'd never have been found where they were found. MO

Yes, I agree with this. If they had been taken away, then they would have been found elsewhere.

Also was Abby not washed so that would indicate it was done by water.

Thats my interpretation on the scene.

 

[girlhasnoname]

The part that stood out to me about Richard Allen's interrogations in October 2022 was that he said he was willing to voluntarily give LE his phone(his current one?) until he felt during that interrogation that they were accusing him of the Delphi murders.

If Richard Allen really is bridge guy, he sure wanted to do whatever he could to help the police prove the case, without realizing this was a possibility.

RA had over 5 years to destroy any evidence he had on that phone. Or he may have gotten a new one during that time that was never used in any shady business. It sounds like he got new phones often based on the number that was recovered during the SW.

My phone plan upgrades me (if I choose) each time a new iPhone version comes out.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

So...

At any given time the perpetrator could have returned to the scene of the crime a second+ time and especially if, as pointed out before, some of those searchers may have been as far as 15 feet from the girls before they were found.

I wonder if RA was a part of the initial search party or parties.

Very much doubt he was a searcher, MO

 

[FromGermany1]

I was just listening to podcast about another case and it was mentioned that LE sometimes withholds information in order to be able to identify false confessions. We know LE in the Delphi case did that and I hadn’t thought about it for a long time. A tried and true tool in investigation.
Thinking about it now, I think it worked in reverse for LE here.
I feel sure one of the things LE kept to themselves was that a witness had seen BG/RA standing on the 1st platform shortly before the girls got to the bridge.
On October 13, 2022, when RA offered and admitted that he was on that platform at that time, he placed the last piece of the puzzle for LE.
RA cannot take himself off that bridge. He absolutely cannot take himself off the bridge. Not only is there a witness, RA himself puts himself on that bridge.
What that means is it doesn’t matter if RA’s cellphone shows up in the data or not, because he is STILL on that bridge, by his on word. Talk about Odinists or other players or unspent bullets or dozens of confessions, people who saw him and people who didn’t, etc……but RA is still on that bridge.
If feel confident LE has much more evidence against RA. Some will need to be weighed thoughtfully by the jury. Other evidence will be more directly tied to RA, and he will still be on that bridge. Nobody can take him off.

BG=RA and he will forever be on that bridge

Opinion

So you think, LE had their "last puzzle piece" already within the first week after the crime, if they only had known or if they only had filed it in a proper way?
What if in case of the two little cousins from Iowa (2012) something similar happened? - Just a spontaneous thought ....

 

[MiniMoo]

In the PCA being released

Thanks!

Looks like November 2022 on, but just from doing a quick Google search so I might have it wrong.