Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #189

[grannygates]

Just a guess, but you think this was someone that they knew?

I would not think so since neither girl recognized the perp. If they had, they most definitely would have said the name of that person on Libby's video.

JMO

I don’t know what the girls actually say on their video or what happens after the phone goes into the pocket, so I don’t know that the “down the hill” voice is actually BG or what the girls say back to the man. I think that there was more than one person involved, so there’s room for the audio to be someone other than BG, or there may be other people who didn’t appear on the video.

My opinion is that stranger murders of multiple children without sexual assault with complex staging posing in broad daylight all within an hour and the killer possibly videotaped it, is incredibly rare and IMO very unlikely and I think it would be far more likely to be done by a person who knew the girls or Abby personally and perhaps did it for some reason other than random thrill kill or sex. I have a really hard time with the timeline, that all that apparently happened in under an hour with other people all over the trails. (ETA: and I totally forgot my main reason why, which was the redressing of Abby but not Libby)


All MOO

 

[mrjitty]

My controversial opinion.

There is no elaborate staging. One girl was murdered while dressed. He threw some sticks on the bodies as he wanted to make them harder to see. probably he gave up. he threw some clothes in the water to destroy DNA.

The case has no connection to CSAM.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

About a year ago a 31 year old man did an attempted double murder and rape on trails at a german tourist attraction. One victim survived. this stuff can be super opportunistic.

US man sentenced for murder of tourist in Germany - BBC News

Troy Philipp B admitted to raping and killing an American tourist near Neuschwanstein Castle in 2023.

www.bbc.com

 

[grannygates]

My controversial opinion.

There is no elaborate staging. One girl was murdered while dressed. He threw some sticks on the bodies as he wanted to make them harder to see. probably he gave up. he threw some clothes in the water to destroy DNA.

The case has no connection to CSAM.

MOO

I haven’t seen the stick formations so I can’t say whether I personally think they were runes, intentional or just thrown sticks, but the FBI behavioural analysis unit and the Purdue professor and the Harvard professor all independently concluded that is was plausibly related to Odinism, the formations may be runes or an attempt at runes by an “odin fanboy.”

The FBI agent on RLs SW stated that the crime scene was staged, but didn’t go into detail. There should be a case narrative from this agent stating why they felt this way.

IMO I do think that the F tree was an intentional shape.

All MOO

 

[Salah11]

My controversial opinion.

There is no elaborate staging. One girl was murdered while dressed. He threw some sticks on the bodies as he wanted to make them harder to see. probably he gave up. he threw some clothes in the water to destroy DNA.

The case has no connection to CSAM.

MOO

This and they investigated and found no link I believe.

The so-called letter F is him wiping his bloody hands on a tree. As he cut them so defiantly, he would have had blood of himself.

IMO

 

[katydid23]

I don’t know what the girls actually say on their video or what happens after the phone goes into the pocket, so I don’t know that the “down the hill” voice is actually BG or what the girls say back to the man. I think that there was more than one person involved, so there’s room for the audio to be someone other than BG, or there may be other people who didn’t appear on the video.

My opinion is that stranger murders of multiple children without sexual assault with complex staging posing in broad daylight all within an hour and the killer possibly videotaped it, is incredibly rare and IMO very unlikely and I think it would be far more likely to be done by a person who knew the girls or Abby personally and perhaps did it for some reason other than random thrill kill or sex. I have a really hard time with the timeline, that all that apparently happened in under an hour with other people all over the trails. (ETA: and I totally forgot my main reason why, which was the redressing of Abby but not Libby)


All MOO

It's not really that unheard of. That is exactly what 'opportunistic' predators do. If they see a sudden opportunity to grab a child or a vulnerable person, they will do so.

They don't need to know the person. They don't even need to have actual sexual relations---just the act of kidnapping, creating fear, using some kind of force or violence, is enough of an arousal and satiation.

And it is not unusual for the crime to be over in an hour or two. And not unusual for it to happen in broad daylight. That's usually the only opportunity to find children alone---during daytime. Look at how many kids get taken going to or from school. They are often taken by strangers.

The only odd thing is the possible staging---although we don't really know what exactly was or wasn't staged.

I remember reading about two brothers, about 11 and 12 or so, who were fishing in a stream, and lured into the woods by a nice stranger---who tied them to a tree, SA'd and killed them.

Sounds kind of similar to Delphi killings. Killer was a stranger, who went 'hunting' for vulnerable victims that day. Broad daylight, left stabbed and tied to a tree.

Westley Allan Dodd - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On September 4, 1989, Dodd went to Vancouver's David Douglas Park, with a fish fillet knife and shoelaces, and sought out young boys to kill.[6] He lured two brothers, 11- and 10-year-old Cole and William Neer, to a secluded area, where he forced them to undress, tied them to a tree and performed sex acts on them both. When he was done, he stabbed them repeatedly with a knife and fled the scene. The boys were soon discovered in the park. Cole was dead at the scene, while William died en route to a nearby hospital.[1]

 

[grannygates]

This and they investigated and found no link I believe.

The so-called letter F is him wiping his bloody hands on a tree. As he cut them so defiantly, he would have had blood of himself.

IMO

Do you think that he managed to avoid leaving any dna or fingerprints on this tree during this action or do you think it existed but LE failed to collect it ?

 

[sunshineray]

I don’t know what the girls actually say on their video or what happens after the phone goes into the pocket, so I don’t know that the “down the hill” voice is actually BG or what the girls say back to the man. I think that there was more than one person involved, so there’s room for the audio to be someone other than BG, or there may be other people who didn’t appear on the video.

My opinion is that stranger murders of multiple children without sexual assault with complex staging posing in broad daylight all within an hour and the killer possibly videotaped it, is incredibly rare and IMO very unlikely and I think it would be far more likely to be done by a person who knew the girls or Abby personally and perhaps did it for some reason other than random thrill kill or sex. I have a really hard time with the timeline, that all that apparently happened in under an hour with other people all over the trails. (ETA: and I totally forgot my main reason why, which was the redressing of Abby but not Libby)


All MOO

I'm confused. Are you saying "Guys, down the hill" was not spoken by BG? Haven't LE made it perfectly clear for years and years that BG spoke those words to the girls?

The audio was played to the families. I posted this interview numerous times where Anna, Abby's Mom, talks about what was said and by whom.

 

[sunshineray]

My controversial opinion.

There is no elaborate staging. One girl was murdered while dressed. He threw some sticks on the bodies as he wanted to make them harder to see. probably he gave up. he threw some clothes in the water to destroy DNA.

The case has no connection to CSAM.

MOO

I could possibly go along with that except for Libby being catfished the night before by a KAK account. Just too coincidental, IMO.

KAK (or someone using his fake account) then mentions to Libby's friend the next day that he was suppose to meet up with Libby but she never showed. This to me is confounding and at the same time evaluative. AJMO

 

[mrjitty]

I could possibly go along with that except for Libby being catfished the night before by a KAK account. Just too coincidental, IMO.

KAK (or someone using his fake account) then mentions to Libby's friend the next day that he was suppose to meet up with Libby but she never showed. This to me is confounding and at the same time evaluative. AJMO

I think if there were any link, it would be known by now in this case and the KAK case.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Photo by WRTV Indianapolis
July 14, 2017



#Justice4Abby&Libby

 

[FromGermany1]

It's not really that unheard of. That is exactly what 'opportunistic' predators do. If they see a sudden opportunity to grab a child or a vulnerable person, they will do so.

They don't need to know the person. They don't even need to have actual sexual relations---just the act of kidnapping, creating fear, using some kind of force or violence, is enough of an arousal and satiation.

And it is not unusual for the crime to be over in an hour or two. And not unusual for it to happen in broad daylight. That's usually the only opportunity to find children alone---during daytime. Look at how many kids get taken going to or from school. They are often taken by strangers.

The only odd thing is the possible staging---although we don't really know what exactly was or wasn't staged.

I remember reading about two brothers, about 11 and 12 or so, who were fishing in a stream, and lured into the woods by a nice stranger---who tied them to a tree, SA'd and killed them.

Sounds kind of similar to Delphi killings. Killer was a stranger, who went 'hunting' for vulnerable victims that day. Broad daylight, left stabbed and tied to a tree.

Westley Allan Dodd - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

On September 4, 1989, Dodd went to Vancouver's David Douglas Park, with a fish fillet knife and shoelaces, and sought out young boys to kill.[6] He lured two brothers, 11- and 10-year-old Cole and William Neer, to a secluded area, where he forced them to undress, tied them to a tree and performed sex acts on them both. When he was done, he stabbed them repeatedly with a knife and fled the scene. The boys were soon discovered in the park. Cole was dead at the scene, while William died en route to a nearby hospital.[1]

BG seemed to be "on a mission", when he passed the witnesses near Freedom Bridge, as far as I remember. So he wasn't waiting for one or two victims suddenly crossing his way sometime. It makes sense, if Abby/Libby were expected by him, and he knew, where and when they exactly would appear. Because BP hadn't given her permission so very early, the time of the girls' appearance at MHB area must have been arranged by at least two parties (actually 3*) a relative short time before. So I think. IMO

* means: the girls told someone, this someone told BG

 

[FromGermany1]

I haven’t seen the stick formations so I can’t say whether I personally think they were runes, intentional or just thrown sticks, but the FBI behavioural analysis unit and the Purdue professor and the Harvard professor all independently concluded that is was plausibly related to Odinism, the formations may be runes or an attempt at runes by an “odin fanboy.”

The FBI agent on RLs SW stated that the crime scene was staged, but didn’t go into detail. There should be a case narrative from this agent stating why they felt this way.

IMO I do think that the F tree was an intentional shape.

All MOO

Maybe it (BG) was an Odinist impersonator.

 

[susane7]

I have to go to bed but then I'll see tomorrow if I remember anything else.

Soham Murders. Some differences because the killer lured them to his house but two girls and in a daylight. Awful case of Jessica Ridgeway - random victim, dismemberement of the body, etc. She was just on her way to school. Broad daylight. In a case the killer entered in the house of a old woman and rape and killer her. Random victim. The killer moved to the house just in front of the victim. He lived years there and just was caught years later because DNA. I'm awful at names. I think I saw most of this cases in Gray Hughes when he covered cold cases. I remember the stories but not the names. But there are many random killers with local guys living in the city and are absolutely under the radar.

Ah and the killer of Bobbie Oberholtzer and Annette Schnee. Some differences but some similarities. The young women were hitchhiking and were killed in the same night. They were shot and not raped or sexually assaulted. The bodies were in different locations - one of them was found 6 months later. In the first body that was found a orange sock was missing from the victim. That orange sock was later found in the other victim 6 months later. The police understood the killer was the same man. The case was solved 40 years later because genealogic DNA (one of the victims had punched him and the police found out a glove with blood). They suspected the husband from one of the victims. The killer happen to be a random, normal, local, quiet guy, a mechanic, with daughters and granddaughters. If you look his profiles he seemed a saint - always defending and fighting for the rights of the minorites - women, LGBT, black people, etc. The police found out that in the night of the murders the killer truck's got stuck in a snowdrift on a mountain pass and he began using his truck's headlights to signal SOS in morse code. A sheriff flying overhead on a commercial jetliner spotted the signal through the falling snow and alerted the crew, who radioed down to dispatch at the sheriff's office. A local fire chief, heard the call and offered to drive up the pass. When he arrived, he saw the guy was a prominent bruise. The guy said he fell while wandering around in the snow. In the reality, it was one of the victims who had punched him. The story of the rescuing was put in the papers next morning with a pic of the guy similing and with a black eye. No one suspected him until DNA, no one put the 2 and 2 together of that rescued guy with a black eye. He was totally under the radar.


IMO It’s highly unusual for there to be more than one offender in these cases. I really doubt a group of 5 or 6 adult men, that no one saw leaving ou entering, combined to sacrifice the girls in some "cult sacrifice" without leaving more footprints, DNA, etc.

My controversial opinion.

There is no elaborate staging. One girl was murdered while dressed. He threw some sticks on the bodies as he wanted to make them harder to see. probably he gave up. he threw some clothes in the water to destroy DNA.

The case has no connection to CSAM.

MOO

I agree. The staging isn't complicated. You can do it in some minutes and he had many time with the victims at the crime scene. I think something/someone scared him when he was putting sticks on them, so he gave up and leave the scene.

 

[FromGermany1]

I haven’t seen the stick formations so I can’t say whether I personally think they were runes, intentional or just thrown sticks, but the FBI behavioural analysis unit and the Purdue professor and the Harvard professor all independently concluded that is was plausibly related to Odinism, the formations may be runes or an attempt at runes by an “odin fanboy.”

The FBI agent on RLs SW stated that the crime scene was staged, but didn’t go into detail. There should be a case narrative from this agent stating why they felt this way.

IMO I do think that the F tree was an intentional shape.

All MOO

If I had to wipe off my bloody hand (I think of one hand), I wouldn't have done it in form of an "F", I believe. Though I hadn't done it on some tree bark anyway, because it is such a rough surface. Probably I rather had used the leaves for it, IF it wasn't more than wiping my hand/s.

 

[Niner]

So - still a go for tomorrow's hearing?

 

[FromGermany1]

About a year ago a 31 year old man did an attempted double murder and rape on trails at a german tourist attraction. One victim survived. this stuff can be super opportunistic.

US man sentenced for murder of tourist in Germany - BBC News

Troy Philipp B admitted to raping and killing an American tourist near Neuschwanstein Castle in 2023.

www.bbc.com

Terrible, this attack and murder!! Unbelievable, what the man did!

 

[MiniMoo]

Is anyone familiar with another case with a stranger murder where the killer was a local man who murdered 2+ children that he has no connection to, left them on the same property where he found them, (eta: add in staging the crime scene and posing the bodies) with no apparent sexual assault and then came forward to the police as a witness immediately after the crime? I’d be curious if anyone knows if these circumstances have happened in any other cases.

MOO

There is another case that involved 4-6 kids with most from the same family - if not all. However, I don't think they were staged, but all were found gagged and bound.

A very gruesome scene - they were stumbled across not too long after the kids didn't turn up for supper so within hours of being murdered not days or weeks.

Different state (USA) and different decade.

They had been out that day earlier with their parents, but wanted to stay longer to play so the parents let them do just that on the condition they were home in time for their evening meal.

I can't remember where I saw it, but I think it was part of a documentary only I couldn't find much about it online then afterwards, even recently, when I tried again.

I'm sure there was one or two local guys that came under scrutiny with one being a bit slow and awkward socially.

So, there may very well be other cases similar to Abby and Libby, also, the staging or displaying may have just been thrown in as a distraction.

 

[FromGermany1]

Just one thought: Do we know, if one of both families of the girls had a connection to Odinism and in truth THEY were attacked instead of their girls/with the murder of their girls and the staging?

 

[MiniMoo]

We know Libby was in contact with the anthony_shots profile.
BP confirmed.
"Police have said there (is) DNA," she said. "They have made the comment that there was DNA. I know for a fact that this Anthony Shots account did have contact with Libby. I feel that he knows more than he says."

Family confirms new information in murder case of young girls in Delphi, Indiana

In an interview with Fox News that aired Tuesday, German's grandma, Becky Patty, said police have DNA in the case.

www.wdrb.com

Libby’s grandma speaks out about new revelations in Delphi investigation

Libby German’s grandma, Becky Patty, says she and her family were as stunned as everyone else was when a transcript of an interview investigators did with Kegan Kline went public.

fox59.com

I recall there was another person of interest so it must have been Anthony Shots.