Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #189

[m00c0w]

The huge cost of purchasing the transcripts would be a restriction to the common person. We have to wait for the lawyers or a big media corp to buy them first and then share them with the public.

The expectation that a normal person would sit down and read through hundreds of pages of transcripts is also a restriction.

Audio and video is by far more accessible for the common person if a court was committed to transparency in the court room.

MOO

My point is more that this isn't a closed door trial with no media allowed and everything kept under seal throughout. If her goal is to hide bias or keep things (whatever that may be) under wraps, she's doing a pretty terrible job considering everything will still be on the record and also heard by journalists that can still report on it.

Plenty of trials are held every day, sometimes for quite heinous offenses, that aren't televised. It's not a spectator sport, and the public has zero say on the proceedings to begin with. If there are serious issues that lead to appeal, these will all be based off of things like official transcripts and evidence, not MurderSheets' livetweets, for example.

Honestly, IMOO, the likely concern is that there is a lot of sensitive content in this court case and the defense team already has a pretty rough history with things like crime scene photos getting leaked. The last thing the judge wants to happen is a sensitive photo gets "accidentally" left in a slideshow or out on a desk, and there's no reeling that back in with a video livestream. The damage will already be 100% done and cannot be undone.

JMO

 

[m00c0w]

Speaking of confidence levels, I think we'd all rather hear from an actual expert about these things, not Nick McLeland, Andrew Baldwin, or Brad Rozzi.

IMO MOO

Sure, they'll have that opportunity at trial.

 

[TTF14]

Sure, they'll have that opportunity at trial.

Isn’t Nick trying to get it all thrown out?

 

[legalmomma]

Stream is starting now with attys Ali and Bob Motta with the report from Day 1 of Delphi Motion hearing- Bob attended the hearing

 

[Salah11]

Stream is starting now with attys Ali and Bob Motta with the report from Day 1 of Delphi Motion hearing

The same Bob Motta from MurderSheets leaks?

 

[ClearAhead]

My point is more that this isn't a closed door trial with no media allowed and everything kept under seal throughout. If her goal is to hide bias or keep things (whatever that may be) under wraps, she's doing a pretty terrible job considering everything will still be on the record and also heard by journalists that can still report on it.

Plenty of trials are held every day, sometimes for quite heinous offenses, that aren't televised. It's not a spectator sport, and the public has zero say on the proceedings to begin with. If there are serious issues that lead to appeal, these will all be based off of things like official transcripts and evidence, not MurderSheets' livetweets, for example.

Honestly, IMOO, the likely concern is that there is a lot of sensitive content in this court case and the defense team already has a pretty rough history with things like crime scene photos getting leaked. The last thing the judge wants to happen is a sensitive photo gets "accidentally" left in a slideshow or out on a desk, and there's no reeling that back in with a video livestream. The damage will already be 100% done and cannot be undone.

JMO

Even if the trial was live-streamed, nothing would satisfy those who believe the Judge is biased against the D or worse, involved in some sort of grand conspiracy or personal vendetta to ensure little-man Rick is convicted. Words, mannerisms, even lip-reading, they’re only looking for proof of injustice, not proof they’re wrong. Now they’re upset the Judge isn’t giving it to them. MOO JMO

 

[m00c0w]

Isn’t Nick trying to get it all thrown out?

Not at all.


NM wants the testimony to be relevant and not an attempt to confuse or mislead (as the defense has been alleged to have done with some of the geofence data already). If granted, it would still be usable, but only in as far as the defense can show why it's relevant and wouldn't just be an attempt to confuse the jury by assigning incorrect meaning to the data.

JMO

 

[grannygates]

My point is more that this isn't a closed door trial with no media allowed and everything kept under seal throughout. If her goal is to hide bias or keep things (whatever that may be) under wraps, she's doing a pretty terrible job considering everything will still be on the record and also heard by journalists that can still report on it.

Plenty of trials are held every day, sometimes for quite heinous offenses, that aren't televised. It's not a spectator sport, and the public has zero say on the proceedings to begin with. If there are serious issues that lead to appeal, these will all be based off of things like official transcripts and evidence, not MurderSheets' livetweets, for example.

Honestly, IMOO, the likely concern is that there is a lot of sensitive content in this court case and the defense team already has a pretty rough history with things like crime scene photos getting leaked. The last thing the judge wants to happen is a sensitive photo gets "accidentally" left in a slideshow or out on a desk, and there's no reeling that back in with a video livestream. The damage will already be 100% done and cannot be undone.

JMO

To be fair, The prosecution included a video of a random unrelated deceased man being turned over by cops within their discovery material, so we can’t really point the finger at just the defense.

There have been established protocols in the past for cases that include graphic material, again I would refer to the gannon stauch and Tylee/JJ cases.

I personally see no unique reason in this case for not broadcasting, which has not been solved in another.

 

[iamshadow21]

To be fair, The prosecution included a video of a random unrelated deceased man being turned over by cops within their discovery material, so we can’t really point the finger at just the defense.

There have been established protocols in the past for cases that include graphic material, again I would refer to the gannon stauch and Tylee/JJ cases.

I personally see no unique reason in this case for not broadcasting, which has not been solved in another.

Another example... In the trial of Keith Raniere, there was not broadcasting equipment, but there were CSAM images. These were not visible to the court. Someone stood directly in front of the jury and slowly, solemnly turned the pages of a binder of the pictures, with a pause to allow the jury to see and absorb each image.

I have also heard of other trials where sensitive images are passed from one juror to another and collected once all jurors have seen them.

It is possible to do.

The difficulty with images being shown in this way is when, say, the medical examiner is testifying and they have to point out certain details, such as injuries, to explain them to the jury. This is difficult to do without the image being on a tv screen or a on board on an easel.

MOO

 

[Spartygirl]

The same Bob Motta from MurderSheets leaks?

Seems like it is !!

That's a Pass for me.. nope

 

[TTF14]

Another example... In the trial of Keith Raniere, there was not broadcasting equipment, but there were CSAM images. These were not visible to the court. Someone stood directly in front of the jury and slowly, solemnly turned the pages of a binder of the pictures, with a pause to allow the jury to see and absorb each image.

I have also heard of other trials where sensitive images are passed from one juror to another and collected once all jurors have seen them.

It is possible to do.

The difficulty with images being shown in this way is when, say, the medical examiner is testifying and they have to point out certain details, such as injuries, to explain them to the jury. This is difficult to do without the image being on a tv screen or a on board on an easel.

MOO

I have watched so many trials where photos were successfully kept away from the cameras. The only trial I have watched that accidentally showed a murder victim's face (at autopsy) was the Murdaugh trial. There's no reason the same can't be done here, especially with notice. They could even turn off the cameras for the entire testimony showing those parts.

No excuse for the obvious want of non-transparency here. I think the reasons @grannygates mentioned earlier (comparing to the Karen Read trial) are spot on.

IMO MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

He never should have been in prison in the first place, but why don't they want him in Delphi? Are they still saying they can't transport him to and from his hearings?

Updated answer from article:

Carroll County Sheriff Tony Liggett testified that he does not object to Allen being kept in the newly built Cass County facility or anywhere else, as long as he is not housed in Carroll County. The jail in Delphi does not have the ability to keep Allen anywhere but with the general population.

Prosecutors and Richard Allen's attorneys clash over information sharing at Delphi murders hearing

The first of three days of hearings started with a delay, then motions to change where Richard Allen is held and how the defense gets information from prosecutors.

www.wthr.com

 

[TTF14]

Updated answer from article:

Carroll County Sheriff Tony Liggett testified that he does not object to Allen being kept in the newly built Cass County facility or anywhere else, as long as he is not housed in Carroll County. The jail in Delphi does not have the ability to keep Allen anywhere but with the general population.

Prosecutors and Richard Allen's attorneys clash over information sharing at Delphi murders hearing

The first of three days of hearings started with a delay, then motions to change where Richard Allen is held and how the defense gets information from prosecutors.

www.wthr.com

Thank you. I thought the original excuse was not having personnel to transport him to court. But maybe that was if he was in another jail?

I think they wanted him in Westville and only Westville from the beginning. (And yes, I know he's no longer at Westville). IMO MOO

MOO JMO IMO

 

[iamshadow21]

I have watched so many trials where photos were successfully kept away from the cameras. The only trial I have watched that accidentally showed a murder victim's face (at autopsy) was the Murdaugh trial. There's no reason the same can't be done here, especially with notice. They could even turn off the cameras for the entire testimony showing those parts.

No excuse for the obvious want of non-transparency here. I think the reasons @grannygates mentioned earlier (comparing to the Karen Read trial) are spot on.

IMO MOO

My word, that must have been awful... I didn't follow the case at the time, but have read and watched stuff about it since, and I know both victims had catastrophic injuries to their heads.

The only trial I have watched so far has been Gannon. They blurred his face and crotch, but we could see everything else on the feed. I will watch Quinton Simon if I get the opportunity, he was my first case on WS from the beginning.

As relates to this trial in particular, I don't have a problem with Judge Gull choosing whether or not to allow cameras. The public will be there, as will the media, it's not as though it's taking place in a basement somewhere without witnesses or a record.

But then, I'm Australian, and it is a very rare thing that any court proceedings are broadcast here. I can only think of a few high profile sentencings (George Pell, etc.) but nothing else. Just the facts summaries in the news with pastel drawings is what I'm used to, so my perspective is different.

MOO

 

[Vern]

IMO we will learn that the Geofence warrant didn't capture any critical info because the killer didn’t have his phone with him.

if it had this case would have been solved in the first weeks.

I have a theory on this:

The Defendant in this case, long before he was arrested, reported to a Conservation Officer shortly after the murders and advised the CO that he had been at MHB the day of the murders from 1330 - 1530hrs. He also advised the CO that he had his phone with him while at the bridge and watching the stock ticker and his cell phone's MEID & MEIDHEX numbers were recorded by the CO at that time. [link to ref (page 9 of 12 in the article's PCA): Richard Allen case | Full timeline and events so far ]

IMO, unless RA is really, really stupid then the phone he produced that day is not the one he was 'watching the stock ticker with' the day of the murders. I do not believe that it was at the bridge with him.

We've learnt from the RH Gilgo case that google keeps geo data back to 2010 and that cell providers can produce quite a history of cell usage when required. If the above phone was not at the bridge with him the day of the murders as he claimed it was then the prosecution will be able to prove that (just another lie from him IMO).

BUT, they recovered many phones from his residence during the search warrant and, IMO - I'll bet dollars to doughnuts, that one or more of those 'historic' phones was there with him that day. IMO it would be interesting to see if any photos etc were taken of the victims with any of his seized phones (if one or more of them was there with him) as he was also quick to tell the CO that he hadn't taken any photos or videos that day. Time will tell. LE would also be able to pull up historical data, geo-locations and usage of those phones as they did in the Gilgo case to prove their 'ownership'. There must have been some reason they included cellphones/communication devices and digital storage on their application for the search warrant and, also IMO, another really HUGE reason for the Defence to want the Search Warrant and it's resultant evidence tossed.

So a couple of phones in the vicinity of the crime scene:
- The girls' phone was there; and
- Either RAs phone he turned over the MEID to was there or another of his phone(s) was IMO.

Justice for these girls. It's been a long time coming. Way too long.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I’m trying @TTF14
He moves around a lot.

Oct 2022
“On Wednesday, October 26, 2022, detectives with the Delphi Double Homicide Task Force took Richard Allen, 50, from Delphi Indiana into custody at the Indiana State Police Lafayette Post for the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German,” authorities wrote in a press statement. “Allen was transported to Carroll County Jail, where he was being held. On Friday, October 28, 2022, Allen was formally charged with two counts of murder and transported to the White County Jail, where he is currently being held without bond.”

After Allen’s arrest in October 2022, the Carroll County sheriff immediately asked the court for a “safekeeping order” to move the defendant out of the Carroll County jail due to fears that the small, understaffed facility could not ensure Allen’s safety.
The request was granted. Allen was temporarily transported to the White County jail before being moved to the Westville Correctional Facility, which is 90 minutes from Delphi.

Delphi murders defendant Richard Allen living in 8x12 prison cell under suicide watch and 24-hour video surveillance

The Westville prison warden provided very specific details about the cell where Allen is living and the accommodations he is offered.

www.wthr.com

Dec 2023
According to released court documents, on Wednesday December 6, Allen was transferred from Westville Correctional Facility to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility.

Richard Allen moved to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility

(WLFI) — Delphi homicide suspect has been move to another facility. According to released court documents, on Wednesday December 6, Allen was transferred from Westville Correctional Facility to Wabash Valley

www.wlfi.com

May 2024
ALLEN CO., Ind. (ADAMS) – The man accused of murdering two teenagers in Delphi has a hearing in Allen County today. Richard Allen was arrested in 2022 for the 2017 deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German.

On Monday, Allen was transported from Wabash Valley Correctional Facility to the Allen County Jail ahead of today’s hearing. The special judge overseeing the case is expected to consider requests from both the prosecutor and the defense attorneys ahead of Allen’s May 13th trial.

https://963xke.com/2024/05/08/71710/

 

[steeltowngirl]

Holder’s alibi

Police cleared Holder during the early stages of the investigation and was never charged.

Indiana State Police Lt. Jerry Holeman, one of the key investigators, testified Tuesday about Holder's alibi on the day the girls were killed. Investigators believe the murders happened between 2:30 p.m. and 3:30 p.m. Feb. 13, 2017, the day Abby and Libby went for a hike along the Monon High Bridge trail. Their bodies were found the next day.

Holeman testified that employee records show Holder, who worked at a landfill about a half-hour away from Delphi, clocked out at 2:45 p.m. He then checked in using a key fob at a gym in Logansport at 4:08 p.m.

Kevin Murphy, a retired Indiana State Police officer who worked on the Delphi case from 2017 to 2019, said that while other investigators did not consider Holder a suspect, he and two others did. He said there was an "undeniable link" between Delphi and supposed Odinists from Rushville.

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen's attorneys accuse police of hiding evidence

Richard Allen's attorneys argue police were too quick in clearing a man with ties to one of the victims and Odinism.

www.indystar.com

 

[TTF14]

Holder’s alibi

Police cleared Holder during the early stages of the investigation and was never charged.

Indiana State Police Lt. Jerry Holeman, one of the key investigators, testified Tuesday about Holder's alibi on the day the girls were killed. Investigators believe the murders happened between 2:30 p.m. and 3:30 p.m. Feb. 13, 2017, the day Abby and Libby went for a hike along the Monon High Bridge trail. Their bodies were found the next day.

Holeman testified that employee records show Holder, who worked at a landfill about a half-hour away from Delphi, clocked out at 2:45 p.m. He then checked in using a key fob at a gym in Logansport at 4:08 p.m.

Kevin Murphy, a retired Indiana State Police officer who worked on the Delphi case from 2017 to 2019, said that while other investigators did not consider Holder a suspect, he and two others did. He said there was an "undeniable link" between Delphi and supposed Odinists from Rushville.

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen's attorneys accuse police of hiding evidence

Richard Allen's attorneys argue police were too quick in clearing a man with ties to one of the victims and Odinism.

www.indystar.com

The problem here is that Holeman based his clearing of BH as a suspect solely on HIS opinion of the time of death, giving no regard to what science/medical examiner says, which we have yet to know.

IMO MOO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I’ve seen smaller courtrooms with cameras. She just doesn’t want cameras there because she doesn’t want to be transparent and the public to see how she acts towards the D. She has shown herself so blatantly biased but she’d prefer to keep that fact behind closed doors. JMHO

No.
She doesn’t want cameras because if she allows them it will encourage the showboating offensive unprofessional fantasy spinning truth averse defense team to pitch the tent and start the circus.

 

[steeltowngirl]

The problem here is that Holeman based his clearing of BH as a suspect solely on HIS opinion of the time of death, giving no regard to what science/medical examiner says, which we have yet to know.

IMO MOO

Are you saying that Holder Holeman did not have medical examiner results prior to his deposition? And also not prior to today when he testified under oath ?

edit: wrong name correct