Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #189

[TTF14]

He did know the time of the kidnapping and the time the girls stopped responding to calls or texts. And Coleman had a solid alibi for that time.

This is not a scientific time of death. Nor is it verified by any type of digital data (although I realize in times gone by that was not a thing so witness statements were all they had to go by). But, we're in the digital age now, so proper investigative techniques would have helped.

IMO MOO

 

[katydid23]

Then a camera, especially one that couldn't swivel/rotate/zoom, should not be placed there. There are many other options, don't you agree?

That's one option but not the only one.

I've followed a lot of trials and I almost always want to have cameras. But in this particular case, I'd lean towards 'no cameras.' I say that because I do not trust the DT to be honest and show integrity. I feel they will try some sketchy shenanigans to try and disrupt things or distort evidence---and once it's out there, it's too late. IMO

 

[MiniMoo]

With this reference to third parties being involved I would like to know who exactly and why those detectives think it.

 

[TTF14]

That's one option but not the only one.

I've followed a lot of trials and I almost always want to have cameras. But in this particular case, I'd lean towards 'no cameras.' I say that because I do not trust the DT to be honest and show integrity. I feel they will try some sketchy shenanigans to try and disrupt things or distort evidence---and once it's out there, it's too late. IMO

I suppose that's no different than any other criminal trial. Did you happen to catch the trial of Charlie Adelson? The third party they put on was cray cray. And he still managed to be convicted. Quickly.

IMO MOO

 

[katydid23]

This is not a scientific time of death. Nor is it verified by any type of digital data (although I realize in times gone by that was not a thing so witness statements were all they had to go by). But, we're in the digital age now, so proper investigative techniques would have helped.

IMO MOO

But common sense should still hold true. There is video time stamped evidence which show what time the girls were forced off the bridge. Their bodies were found nearby, and forensics and blood splatter evidence shows they were killed at the place they were found.

We also know they stopped responding to their cell phone around 3:30 pm. ...So ,all together, that is pretty important evidence that shows what time they were kidnapped and were last known to be alive and well.

The speculation that they were taken from the area and then returned and dumped in the area that was actively being searched is just that---pure speculation. I see no evidence of that and it seems very far fetched. IMO

The theory that a group of Odinists could have returned to the search area and committed a ritual killing, while family, friends and first responders were still searching throughout the night seems unlikely. Why would they take such a risk when they had already safely gotten away with the kidnapped girls?

Why not go to another remote area to do the ritual instead of one where people were already on the lookout?

 

[twall]

The part about Holeman becoming irate with him in the hallway about it was quite interesting. Guy has a temper!

IMO MOO

Wait...what? I missed this. Do you have a source? I have read/watched so much today it is all starting to blur together!

 

[TTF14]

But common sense should still hold true. There is video time stamped evidence which show what time the girls were forced off the bridge. Their bodies were found nearby, and forensics and blood splatter evidence shows they were killed at the place they were found.

We also know they stopped responding to their cell phone around 3:30 pm. ...So ,all together, that is pretty important evidence that shows what time they were kidnapped and were last known to be alive and well.

The speculation that they were taken from the area and then returned and dumped in the area that was actively being searched is just that---pure speculation. I see no evidence of that and it seems very far fetched. IMO

The theory that a group of Odinists could have returned to the search area and committed a ritual killing, while family, friends and first responders were still searching throughout the night seems unlikely. Why would they take such a risk when they had already safely gotten away with the kidnapped girls?

Why not go to another remote area to do the ritual instead of one where people were already on the lookout?

Great post. I can't really respond with my thoughts and opinions due to TOS, but I see your logic for sure.

IMO MOO

 

[katydid23]

I suppose that's no different than any other criminal trial. Did you happen to catch the trial of Charlie Adelson? The third party they put on was cray cray. And he still managed to be convicted. Quickly.

IMO MOO

IMO, this does seem different than other trials I've followed. The 4 Franks Motions, 3 of them being kind of ridiculous, long winded and salacious, the many incidents of leaks and the DT consorting with unreliable you-tube sleuths, and the multiple attempts to have the judge kicked to the curb, all put together makes them seem shady/sketchy, IMO

 

[TTF14]

IMO, this does seem different than other trials I've followed. The 4 Franks Motions, 3 of them being kind of ridiculous, long winded and salacious, the many incidents of leaks and the DT consorting with unreliable you-tube sleuths, and the multiple attempts to have the judge kicked to the curb, all put together makes them seem shady/sketchy, IMO

You forgot the judge kicking THEM off the case and then the Supreme Court telling her "hey girl, not so fast, you can't do that!" And also the State consorting with unreliable you-tube sleuth (Fig Solves).

IMO MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

Great post. I can't really respond with my thoughts and opinions due to TOS, but I see your logic for sure.

IMO MOO

Also, as for TOD... Another thing that would have given them an idea would be things like lividity and rigor. It wouldn't give them to the minute, but they would know if the girls were killed soon after they were abducted versus a number of hours later.

If they were killed soon after, and the bodies show that, then that is another mark against the 'taken and returned' theory, besides the crime scene itself, which suggests they were killed where they were found.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

You forgot the judge kicking THEM off the case and then the Supreme Court telling her "hey girl, not so fast, you can't do that!"

And yet, the SCOIN complained about her process, not her desire to remove them. And the SCOUN also told the DT "hey guys not so fast, you can't do that' and ruled that the judge was not biased.

And also the State consorting with unreliable you-tube sleuth (Fig Solves).

IMO MOO

If true, that is not a good thing. But I don't think it was as big a trend as what the DT was actively pursuing. IMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

But common sense should still hold true. There is video time stamped evidence which show what time the girls were forced off the bridge. Their bodies were found nearby, and forensics and blood splatter evidence shows they were killed at the place they were found.

We also know they stopped responding to their cell phone around 3:30 pm. ...So ,all together, that is pretty important evidence that shows what time they were kidnapped and were last known to be alive and well.

The speculation that they were taken from the area and then returned and dumped in the area that was actively being searched is just that---pure speculation. I see no evidence of that and it seems very far fetched. IMO

The theory that a group of Odinists could have returned to the search area and committed a ritual killing, while family, friends and first responders were still searching throughout the night seems unlikely. Why would they take such a risk when they had already safely gotten away with the kidnapped girls?

Why not go to another remote area to do the ritual instead of one where people were already on the lookout?

I absolutely agree with you.
I would add that the idea that the girls were taken from the trail and returned is impossible. Anyway you look at it it’s rubbish.

1)—The killer herded them away while they were still alive and brought them back in the middle of the night a) dead. This means the killer(s) had to manipulate their bodies on very difficult terrain in the pitch dark. Libby was not a small person. They would do this while avoiding the searchers who remained throughout the night. Then they would have to stage the scene like they were found…or…b) alive. So the killer(s) would have to herd the girls silently back to the crime scene through the same terrain and darkness avoiding searcherers. Then kill them savagely and silently and stage the scene.
2)—The killer(s) kills them right there then drags and manipulates both bodies over that terrain while listening to people calling looking for the girls. Then muscle the bodies again in pitch dark among searchers to stage the scene. Why not take them miles away and hide their bodies?

The thought of them being removed and returned is preposterous.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Also, as for TOD... Another thing that would have given them an idea would be things like lividity and rigor. It wouldn't give them to the minute, but they would know if the girls were killed soon after they were abducted versus a number of hours later.

If they were killed soon after, and the bodies show that, then that is another mark against the 'taken and returned' theory, besides the crime scene itself, which suggests they were killed where they were found.

MOO

Well surely a time of death was established sometime in the last 7 years.
Holeman testified today that he believed that Abby and Libby were killed between 2:30-3:30pm on 2/13/17. I don’t think he would hold that belief if the medical examiner results did not align.
All my opinion

 

[TTF14]

Well surely a time of death was established sometime in the last 7 years.
Holeman testified today that he believed that Abby and Libby were killed between 2:30-3:30pm on 2/13/17. I don’t think he would hold that belief if the medical examiner results did not align.
All my opinion

Did he say his belief was based on the medical examiner's report?

 

[katydid23]

I absolutely agree with you.
I would add that the idea that the girls were taken from the trail and returned is impossible. Anyway you look at it it’s rubbish.

1)—The killer herded them away while they were still alive and brought them back in the middle of the night a) dead. This means the killer(s) had to manipulate their bodies on very difficult terrain in the pitch dark. Libby was not a small person. They would do this while avoiding the searchers who remained throughout the night. Then they would have to stage the scene like they were found…or…b) alive. So the killer(s) would have to herd the girls silently back to the crime scene through the same terrain and darkness avoiding searcherers. Then kill them savagely and silently and stage the scene.
2)—The killer(s) kills them right there then drags and manipulates both bodies over that terrain while listening to people calling looking for the girls. Then muscle the bodies again in pitch dark among searchers to stage the scene. Why not take them miles away and hide their bodies?

The thought of them being removed and returned is preposterous.

"The thought of them being removed and returned is preposterous."

I agree. So why are the DT so invested in this narrative, that the girls were taken from the area but then returned sometime later? Especially when it does not make a lot of sense...

I think the only reason they are so invested in this potential scenario is because they don't have an alibi for RA during the key times---1:30 to 3:30 pm----but the Odinists do have an alibi for that window of time.

...but if they can move the actual murders until a more convenient time for the defense theory, they can give RA an alibi and take the Odinist leader's alibi away.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Judge Gull takes safekeeping motion under advisement. 3/

x.com


Next: Defense asks to compel prosecutor to hand over evidence w/better organization of 26TB of case files. Prosecutor says he’s giving Allen’s attys what they need, even ‘spoon feeding’ them, but they want things prosecutors don’t have. Judge takes that under advisement, too 4/



After lunch schedule: A motion from Allen’s team to dismiss. Later this week: motions to suppress statements Allen made, prosecution’s list of words and phrases that should be banned from the trial in the murders of Abby Williams and Libby German. 5/






Of note: This morning’s hearing, scheduled to start at 10 am, was delayed until after 11 am. Judge Gull said she didn’t anticipate the construction between Fort Wayne and Delphi. Court session resumes at 1:30 pm.Also of note: No phones/cameras/electronics at all allowed 6/

https://twitter.com/x/status/1818327338393726996

@legalmomma
Thank you for the updates, it is very helpful to read these versus having to wade through a ton of posts to learn the days happenings in court. Repetition and I don't get along very well. Echo chamber phobia perhaps? Much appreciated!!!

 

[gremlin444]

“Authorities say autopsies are taking longer than expected on two bodies found near a northern Indiana creek during a search for two missing 13-year-old girls.

State Police Sgt. Kim Riley says a pathologist who began the autopsies Wednesday morning in Terre Haute was still performing them around noon Wednesday.”

The girls visitation was Feb 18.
When was BH interviewed by JH?

https://fox59.com/news/family-and-friends-say-goodbye-to-delphi-teens-at-private-funerals/

February 13--girls go missing
February 14--girls found
February 15--autopsies performed from morning til past noon, preliminary results at 3 pm news conference, announced that they weren't disclosing method of death
Autopsies confirm bodies are those of 2 missing Indiana girls
February 17--BH interviewed by by FBI at Delphi police

https://www.wane.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2024/05/Dismisspdf.pdf

March 1--"Tony Liggett stated in a report that there were no leads required concerning Brad Holder, meaning that it was not necessary for law enforcement to continue to look for leads related to Brad Holder."
March 16--"By March 16, 2023, Unified Command member Kevin Hammond wrote that “Brad Holder has been cleared.”
(quotes bout 3/1 and 3/16 from the memorandum in support of a Frank's motion Adobe Acrobat)

Given that the bodies were found less than 24 hours after they went missing and the autopsy on Wed happened less than 48 hours after going missing, by Fri Feb 17 they would have a pretty good picture already of TOD--definitely enough to tell at the least whether they had been killed Monday afternoon vs middle of the night Tue.

 

[MiniMoo]

I was just looking for news about the 3 day Hearing....Day One (recaps).

It was my first time seeing that judge and Richard Allen (full body) being marched to the court room between two guards or officers. I've seen his face, but never really him.

I didn't realise he was so short!

It was actually the first thing that went through my head and came out of my mouth - he is really short.

If I was a witness I would have mentioned it as it isn't something you'd miss - not if that person stands out between two tall men like he just did when I was watching it.

Is he that short or are those men escorting him (Day 1) just tall?

Anyone know.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I was just looking for news about the 3 day Hearing....Day One (recaps).

It was my first time seeing that judge and Richard Allen (full body) being marched to the court room between two guards or officers. I've seen his face, but never really him.

I didn't realise he was so short!

It was actually the first thing that went through my head and came out of my mouth - he is really short.

If I was a witness I would have mentioned it as it isn't something you'd miss - not if that person stands out between two tall men like he just did when I was watching it.

Is he that short or are those men escorting him (Day 1) just tall?

Anyone know.

Yes it’s right in the PCA. One of the witnesses that passed RA made a remark about his lack of stature.
https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

 

[MiniMoo]

Yes it’s right in the PCA. One of the witnesses that passed RA made a remark about his lack of stature.
https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

No more than 5 10...

Hard to tell as he is the only one that is short when it comes to him and those security guards/officers.