Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #189

[steeltowngirl]

I was just looking for news about the 3 day Hearing....Day One (recaps).

It was my first time seeing that judge and Richard Allen (full body) being marched to the court room between two guards or officers. I've seen his face, but never really him.

I didn't realise he was so short!

It was actually the first thing that went through my head and came out of my mouth - he is really short.

If I was a witness I would have mentioned it as it isn't something you'd miss - not if that person stands out between two tall men like he just did when I was watching it.

Is he that short or are those men escorting him (Day 1) just tall?

Anyone know.

Per IDOC, height is 55. which we’ve discussed is likely 5’5”

Offender Details

 

[grannygates]

But common sense should still hold true. There is video time stamped evidence which show what time the girls were forced off the bridge. Their bodies were found nearby, and forensics and blood splatter evidence shows they were killed at the place they were found.

We also know they stopped responding to their cell phone around 3:30 pm. ...So ,all together, that is pretty important evidence that shows what time they were kidnapped and were last known to be alive and well.

The speculation that they were taken from the area and then returned and dumped in the area that was actively being searched is just that---pure speculation. I see no evidence of that and it seems very far fetched. IMO

The theory that a group of Odinists could have returned to the search area and committed a ritual killing, while family, friends and first responders were still searching throughout the night seems unlikely. Why would they take such a risk when they had already safely gotten away with the kidnapped girls?

Why not go to another remote area to do the ritual instead of one where people were already on the lookout?

I don’t recall reading anything about forensics and blood spatter evidence at a crime scene that indicated that the girls were killed at that location? Everything that I’ve read said that the crime scene was remarkably clean? Do you know what document that was in so I can look it up? I don’t need a link I can find it myself if you know the name of it.

 

[grannygates]

I was just looking for news about the 3 day Hearing....Day One (recaps).

It was my first time seeing that judge and Richard Allen (full body) being marched to the court room between two guards or officers. I've seen his face, but never really him.

I didn't realise he was so short!

It was actually the first thing that went through my head and came out of my mouth - he is really short.

If I was a witness I would have mentioned it as it isn't something you'd miss - not if that person stands out between two tall men like he just did when I was watching it.

Is he that short or are those men escorting him (Day 1) just tall?

Anyone know.

He’s 5’4”, and I believe one of the PCA witnesses said that she came up to BGs shoulder, so she must have been like 4’4” MOO

 

[grannygates]

Wait...what? I missed this. Do you have a source? I have read/watched so much today it is all starting to blur together!

It’s just been from notes of people who attended the hearing so far so we will have to see if the “approved source” picks up this very important moment where Holeman screams at Murphy after his deposition asking “what the F was that and how the F did they get it!!” about the odin report. MOO IMO

 

[Sillybilly]

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[katydid23]

I don’t recall reading anything about forensics and blood spatter evidence at a crime scene that indicated that the girls were killed at that location? Everything that I’ve read said that the crime scene was remarkably clean? Do you know what document that was in so I can look it up? I don’t need a link I can find it myself if you know the name of it.

The investigators involved in the case believe the girls were killed near to where they were recovered. Abby had likely been washed off, but the blood spatter at the base of the F tree probably indicates Libby was killed there. A bullet was found between the two bodies, and you don’t cycle an unspent round to intimidate dead people.

IMO, the speculation was that the murderer washed the bodies, not that they were killed far away. Maybe they were even stabbed in the water and bled out there?

The last photo of them is on the bridge. The video of BG is on the bridge. Some of their clothing was found in the creek. A witness saw a man walking away from the crime scene covered in mud or blood, which means the crime had to have happened in the woods and he was walking away from the crime after it was committed.IMO

 

[mrjitty]

As an aside i do wonder if it’s time for a new jusdicial/criminal IT infrastructure for discovery which the D is eventually given access rights to rather than trying to transfer files in bulk.

i was imagining personally i have 30TB or more of data and if i had to transfer it to someone, of course what they would end up with is a vast amount of files with no real sense to them.

 

[katydid23]

As an aside i do wonder if it’s time for a new jusdicial/criminal IT infrastructure for discovery which the D is eventually given access rights to rather than trying to transfer files in bulk.

i was imagining personally i have 30TB or more of data and if i had to transfer it to someone, of course what they would end up with is a vast amount of files with no real sense to them.

I think that is a really good way to solve the issue---but if I was a prosecutor, I'd probably be worried about any of the other non-discovery, work product items which are probably interspersed among the multiple files. Could something kind of damaging to the state slip through unnoticed? I mean like private emails between the prosecutors concerning trial strategy and flaws they want to work through?

 

[Niner]

Wednesday, July 31st:
*Motions Hearing (Day 2 of 3) (@ 10am ET) – IN – Abigail Joyce Williams (13) & Liberty Rose Lynn German (14) (Missing Feb. 13, 2017, found killed Feb. 14, 2017, after walking on a local hiking trail & were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the Monon High Bridge Trail, Delphi) – *Richard “Ricky/Rick” Matthew Allen (44 @ time of crime/50/now 51) arrested & booked (10/26/22) into the Carroll County Jail & charged & arraigned (10/28/22) with 2 counts of murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims. Plead not guilty. Held without bond.
Amended charges (1/18/24/granted 3/18/24): 2 counts of felony murder (knowingly & intentionally), 2 counts of murder (while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims). Transferred to White County jail from Carroll County for security reasons. And was transferred (11/2/22) to IN. DOC at Westfield Correctional Facility at a more secure facility. Was awaiting transfer to Westville Correctional Facility but Judge Gull denied move (6/15/23). She plans to take the arguments under advisement & will make a ruling on whether or not he will be moved out of Westville at a later date. Judge Gull denied move (7/5/23). On 12/6/23 Allen was transferred from Westfield to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility (long term segregation). Allen was booked (5/6/24) into the Allen County Jail [for hearing on 5/7/24]. Allen back (5/7/24) to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility. Carroll County
Trial set to begin with jury selection on 10/14/24 (thru 10/17) & Trial reset to begin on 10/18/24. Mondays thru Saturdays from 9am to 5pm.
Allen County Judge Frances C. Gull presiding / Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland & Special Prosecutor James David Luttrull, Jr.
Andrew Baldwin & Bradley Rozzi are Allen’s public appointed attorneys & added Jennifer Auger [addressing the circumstances surrounding digital forensics].
Jury will be chosen from among 600 people. Special judge Frances Gull expects jury selection to take approximately three days. She said the jury would then be sworn in on the fourth day (10/17/24) with opening statements beginning by Day 5, 10/18/24. That means the jury could start hearing testimony on 10/18/24. After jury selection, the actual trial phase of the proceedings will take place at the Carroll County Courthouse in Delphi. Gull confirmed Allen’s trial will take place six days a week — Monday through Saturday — if there are no religious objections from any of the jurors. Jury will be sequestered.
Charges, case & court info from 4/19/21 thru 7/25/24 reference post #462 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...ers-richard-allen-arrested-189.719769/page-24
7/26/24 Docket update: Order issued. Court received a "Request for Recording of Court Proceedings by News Media" from Cyndee Hebert, WTHR-TV & denies same without hearing. Signed by Judge Frances Gull. Noticed to: McLeland, Baldwin, Rozzi, Luttrell, Diener & Auger. Order issued. Court received a "Request for Recording of Court Proceedings by News Media" from Erika Facey, WISH-TV & denies same without hearing. Signed by Judge Frances Gull. Noticed to: McLeland, Baldwin, Rozzi, Luttrell, Diener & Auger.
7/30/24 Update: Judge Gull will hold hearings in Carroll County on Tuesday, Wednesday & Thursday. She’s scheduled to hear multiple motions over the course of the three days:
*State’s Motion for Admissibility (filed May 6, 2024)
*Defense Motion to Suppress Second Statement (filed April 15, 2024)
*State’s Objection to Defendant’s Motion to Suppress (filed April 15, 2024)
*Defendant’s Motion to Compel & Motion for Sanctions (filed April 23, 2024)
*Defendant’s Motion to Vacate Safekeeping Order (filed May 13, 2024)
*State’s Motion in Limine (filed April 28, 2024)
*Defense Response to State’s Motion in Limine
*Defendant’s Second Motion to Dismiss (filed May 20, 2024)
*State’s Response to Defendant’s Second Motion to Dismiss (filed June 9, 2024)
See post #485, page 25, thread #189 for more details (article).
The defense has two motions to suppress various statements. The first motion to suppress deals with statements Allen reportedly made while in pre-trial custody. The defense wants to eliminate the possibility of prison guards or other inmates testifying about what they reportedly heard Allen say. The second motion to suppress deals with statements made to ISP just before he was arrested. Oct. 26, 2022, Allen & his wife went to the police station in West Lafayette pick up a vehicle that was seized earlier that month. When they got to the station, Allen had a conversation with ISP officer Jerry Holeman. The defense wants the content of that conversation kept out. Prosecutors object to both motions to suppress statements.
*Defense team argued that arrangements have been made to move Allen from Wabash Valley prison to Cass County Jail or Tippecanoe County jail, modifying safekeeping order from Nov 2022. Carroll County Sheriff Tony Liggett says he’s ok with that, as long as Allen isn’t returned to jail in Delphi. Judge Gull takes safekeeping motion under advisement.
*Defense asks to compel prosecutor to hand over evidence with better organization of 26TB of case files. Prosecutor says he’s giving Allen’s attorneys what they need, even ‘spoon feeding’ them, but they want things prosecutors don’t have. Judge takes that under advisement.
*No info on motions for the afternoon. No tweets posted. Motions hearing continues on Wednesday, 7/31/24.

 

[mrjitty]

And this little bit...

Kevin Murphy, a retired Indiana State Police officer who worked on the Delphi case from 2017 to 2019, said that while other investigators did not consider Holder a suspect, he and two others did. He said there was an "undeniable link" between Delphi and supposed Odinists from Rushville.

Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen's attorneys accuse police of hiding evidence

Richard Allen's attorneys argue police were too quick in clearing a man with ties to one of the victims and Odinism.

www.indystar.com

The strange thing is, despite Rozzi's best efforts today, I am yet to hear about any evidence that connects BH to the crime AND he has an alibi.

So while Judge Gull may allow the defence to run a generic SODDI theory with a pagan/odinist angle, I can't see why she will let them name these 'suspects' based on no evidence than Murphy's say so.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

The same Bob Motta from MurderSheets leaks?

Yes the same defence podcaster who MS alleges promoted the idea of a drug murder connection to the family and claimed JM abducted a young girl then had to retract it.

The Delphi Murders: The Secret Messages of the Delphi Defense’s Brain Trust: Part One: "Zone of Pain"

Members of Richard Allen’s defense team have worked hand-in-hand with internet cranks in order to sway the public narrative of the case, smear perceived...

murdersheetpodcast.com

 

[mrjitty]

Not at all.

View attachment 521527
NM wants the testimony to be relevant and not an attempt to confuse or mislead (as the defense has been alleged to have done with some of the geofence data already). If granted, it would still be usable, but only in as far as the defense can show why it's relevant and wouldn't just be an attempt to confuse the jury by assigning incorrect meaning to the data.

JMO

The latest MS reporting shows why NM is saying this.

IMO one of the phones is the young man the defence surrogates fabricated a conspiracy around despite him having a tight alibi. The defence knows full well none of these phones has any relevance to the murders.

As you say, burden on the D to show relevance.

MOO

 

[Salah11]

So a question answer as I don’t know the answer to.

As long as the prosecutors send all the information across to the defence or their job is done.

Or should they be helping them by saying which bits are which and so on?

 

[katydid23]

So a question answer as I don’t know the answer to.

As long as the prosecutors send all the information across to the defence or their job is done.

Or should they be helping them by saying which bits are which and so on?

I think it is kind of a grey area. Some say they just need to send it all but don't need to spoon feed them or organise it in perfect order because that is impossible.

But there are accusations that sometimes Prosecution will purposely send it in a big jumbled mess, when they had it in reasonable order beforehand. So that is not supposed to be the way it is done.

I think it is supposed to be labeled and sent in whatever order it is being kept on their servers. IMO

 

[nadia90]

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[Salah11]

I think it is kind of a grey area. Some say they just need to send it all but don't need to spoon feed them or organise it in perfect order because that is impossible.

But there are accusations that sometimes Prosecution will purposely send it in a big jumbled mess, when they had it in reasonable order beforehand. So that is not supposed to be the way it is done.

I think it is supposed to be labeled and sent in whatever order it is being kept on their servers. IMO

Thank you for the explanation

Maybe they should be working on sorting out the so called mess instead of writing franks motions
Moo

 

[susane7]

The strange thing is, despite Rozzi's best efforts today, I am yet to hear about any evidence that connects BH to the crime AND he has an alibi.

So while Judge Gull may allow the defence to run a generic SODDI theory with a pagan/odinist angle, I can't see why she will let them name these 'suspects' based on no evidence than Murphy's say so.

MOO

Absolutely. She may allow the defense say "it was a odinist sacrifice" but without specific names. I don't think the defense want that. I'm tired of BH. I don't know how many people and how many times does it take to state he has a solid alibi.

I still have to listen to MS last's episode. I'm sure it is detailed. I hope the hearings of today are more interesting.

 

[katydid23]

Absolutely. She may allow the defense say "it was a odinist sacrifice" but without specific names. I don't think the defense want that. I'm tired of BH. I don't know how many people and how many times does it take to state he has a solid alibi.

And that alibi for BH is the reason that the DT is now heavily pushing that theory of the girls being moved from the location and returned hours later. They want to nullify that alibi. IMO

I still have to listen to MS last's episode. I'm sure it is detailed. I hope the hearings of today are more interesting.

 

[girlhasnoname]

#Justice4Abby&Libby:


Photo Provided by CrimeOnline

 

[susane7]

And that alibi for BH is the reason that the DT is now heavily pushing that theory of the girls being moved from the location and returned hours later. They want to nullify that alibi. IMO

Exactly. They want to move the timeline for a time when RA has a alibi and BH hasn't a solid alibi (probably for a time when his alibi is he was at home). Also BG don't look like any of the odinists. They want to suppress the video too.