Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #190

[mrjitty]

Interesting interview, thanks for linking. Both Kevin and Anya speculate that RA wants to plead guilty but may not be getting good legal advise (ie the prosecution has nothing on you). Phonecalls to wife/mother from RA wanting to explain what he had done, please love me anyway, but they hang up on him. His therapist admonished him about talking about his case but he continued to confess to her as well. After he found religion he told people he was scared of not seeing his family again in this life so if he beared his soul he would see them again in heaven.

D might not be working in the best interests of RA, instead that of his wife/mother. During the hearing whenever there was talk of the girls/actual crime scene RA appeared very agitated, twitching, glaring. Anya thinks the rejection from his wife/mother may’ve pushed him back to the “not guilty” side. She summarizes that the D may be “dragging this guy through the process”.

Brett speculates Judge will allow confession and so he hopes D will put these things to RA “look, this is what jury will hear”. If 3rd party evidence is restricted “look we have no defense”.

What i found interesting was the theory of Alice and Brett that if Judge Gull brings down the Odinist hammer, the attorneys expect that the D might change course to focus on KAK, ballistics, digital etc etc, which might mean they have to seek a continuance, because they aren't ready for that trial.

Apparently this is not uncommon if you suffer a reverse on pre-trial evidential issues.

Their views / IMO etc

 

[grannygates]

At Approx 1:28 min mark:

Spoiler: Abby's Injuries - Sensitive Information

Abby was dressed in Libby's clothes at the time she was killed as there was heavy blood saturation to those clothes and blood pooling according to State Expert, so not redressed in them after her murder as speculated in the Franks.

The Expert testified that the sticks placed on the bodies were placed there to help hide the bodies from someone looking from across the creek. He showed a sample of blood saturated hand print which helped him determine it was one of the last dying efforts of Libby.

How anyone can listen to these horrifying last minutes of these girls and not be affected and not want their killer behind prison bars for the rest of his sick, miserable life is beyond me. What was done to them is far worse than being held in segregation awaiting trial for their murders will ever be.

JMO
#Justice4Abby&Libby

The Delphi Murders: Three Days of Pretrial Hearings: Day Three

Everyone absolutely wants justice for Abby and Libby. We want law enforcement to solve the case. I want the killers to pay, absolutely. But they need to prove this person did the crime and that it would be impossible to have been committed by another person. I don’t think that “he could be bridge guy” is acceptable when we’re convicting someone of a double homicide. There are way more factors of this case outside of a man seen in the back of the video that could be used to genuinely solve this case based on the actual crime scene.

We have a laws and a constitution in America that we need to follow. We don’t get to pick and choose who the law applies to. That’s a steep slope to everyone just giving up all of their rights and just bringing back lynching. Anyone who subscribes to that mindset has no idea the amount of false convictions that occur in this country. That is not a civilized society. We have a trial and convict the person on evidence before punishing them for a year in solitary confinement.

Administrative segregation, restricted housing unit, solitary confinement is all synonyms for the same thing. They just keep changing the name to make it sound better. You can Google what Westville calls their solitary confinement unit. We’re discussing the section of the prison where convicted inmates are punished by being held in a cell all day long alongside the worst of the worst convicted inmates. This is illegal in most civilized countries and is restricted to 30 days in Indiana.

All MOO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I want to know what the actual Autopsy Report says about ToD; couldn't care less whether the notes mention it or not.

I guess we wait until trial.

I have a pretty good idea that it's at or shortly after that cell phone stops tracking steps and ends up laying under one of the girls where it is found the next day ... and before BG/RA is seen on video passing by the Harvester Store.

Nope; no Odinistic Scarifical murder happened between sundown the 13th and sunup the 14th. It just didn't - no matter how much they want to try to make it "fit" into their fake-Odinism theory. Woods next to water ... woods next to the bridge where the girls chose visit that day vice some "ritualistic round clearing in the woods next to water" that Odinists had set up for a scarifice and lured these sacrifcal victims to. They were forced there, by a man with a gun. A man who will soon stand trial to answer for the crimes he committed that day. BECAUSE - in order for this to be an actual "Ritualistic Odinistic Sacrificial Murder occuring on an Odinistic Date appropriate to that religion" then that means that there had to be pre-planning by these Odinists. Where's the D-Teams evidence of all these Odinists planning this up? How do they explain them messing up the timing? Is every murder that occurs outside now evidence of a Odinistic Rtual Murder? Every murder that happens in a small clearing in the woods? Every murder that sees a victim covered up with sticks and twigs and leaves? Every murder by water? Every murder from sunup to sundown? Every murder that happens on 13 Feb? A man who has made many admissions inclusive of information only the killer would know has admitted to this crime. Every single thing 'the expert' has stated indicates Odinistic Ritualism (NOTE: The FBI Crime scene certified experts [who actually viewed the evidence before forming their conclusions] disagree with her assessment for those who conveniently forget that factoid) also indicates thousands of other other crime scenes. And so the D is left scrambling to make the murders happen later/overnight than they did. Good luck with that.

I'm also really interested to see what Team D is going to try to come up with if the Odinism isn't allowed at trial. They obviously have to place the ToD later as they can't place their own client away from the scene of the crime at the time it actually occured (by witness accounts and his own questioning and the phone data).

If the defense team has to pivot from their Odinist fantasy their credibility will plummet to zero. They will prove that they willingly and purposefully made it all up.
Then to brainstorm up another fairy tale would only prove how hard they want to put this child murderer back on the streets.

 

[Megnut]

What i found interesting was the theory of Alice and Brett that if Judge Gull brings down the Odinist hammer, the attorneys expect that the D might change course to focus on KAK, ballistics, digital etc etc, which might mean they have to seek a continuance, because they aren't ready for that trial.

Apparently this is not uncommon if you suffer a reverse on pre-trial evidential issues.

Their views / IMO etc

Adding to the very long list of Ways They're Not Ready.

Counter to what they represented, presumably under oath, to the SCION.

They weren't ready in April. Hadn't secured an expert of any kind, objected to the well-scheduled May trial, not be used they needed more time to present (as the represented to the Court) but more time to PREPARE. Success, get the trial pushed back, DIDN'T have to file for an embarrassing continuance AND made it look like a judiciary error. Somehow even wrangled out of giving any good faith proffer to the Court for WHY they needed so much time, more than even the State needed! "Your Honor, we need weeeeeeks on account of all the Odinist experts we intend to call. If we can find any who will return our calls".

But in the end, IMO it's doubtful the jury will hear much of anything about Odinists.

JMO

 

[grannygates]

I’ve been hearing a lot about the FBI using the term “undoing “.

So I found this Very detailed, very informative research paper that explains undoing in detail and provides results on their study that was conducted using 975 FBIBAU cases. There are 11 cases at the end of the paper that Explained in detail the undoing that occurred in those. Its a great read.

They state that undoing is when the offender alters the crime scene in a way of symbolically undoing the murders. It is psychological, and personal to the offender. some options are washing the body, covering the body with a blanket, leaving objects like jewellery or flowers. They do clarify that the options for what could be “undoing” is unlimited so this is by no means a list of all options.

Undoing is not used to conceal the crime or destroy evidence. It is not used to hide a body, not used to intentionally mislead investigators, not for gain sexual gratification, not to shock the person who will eventually find the crime scene. It is an event that is personal to the offender and their own psychological process of the crime scene.

They stated that staging and posing in itself (as we saw in the RL SW) wouldn’t necessarily be undoing, but could be considered if there was a psychological symbolisation that would make these poses etc. personal to the offender.

In 10/11 cases they share the data from, the offender and the victim are known to each other. It is typically close family member or intimate partner.

Journal of Forensic Sciences Volume issue 2017 [doi 10.1111_1556-4029.13556] Russell, Maria; Schlesinger, Louis B.; Leon, Maria; Holdren, Sam -- “Undoing” (or Symbolic Reversal) at Homicide Crime Sc.pdf

J Forensic Sci, 2017 doi: 10.1111/1556-4029.13556 Available online at: onlinelibrary.wiley.com. PAPER PSYCHIATRY AND BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE. Maria Russell,1 M.A.; Louis B. Schlesinger,1 Ph.D.; Maria Leon,1 M.A.; and Samantha Holdren,1 M.A. “Undoing” (or Symbolic Reversal) at Homicide Crime Scenes†...

www.docdroid.net

ALL MOO

 

[Arkay]

There are way more factors of this case outside of a man seen in the back of the video that could be used to genuinely solve this case based on the actual crime scene.

Very true.

However, IMO the guy in the back of the video cannot possibly be just an innocent man strolling by, since we can hear him saying, “Guys, down the hill.”

Therefore that man is likely the suspect. We can’t see clearly enough that this man is RA, but we can see enough to rule some things in or out. A white man, probably middle-aged, his clothing, body type, his apparel etc.

Of course we also have RA admitting he was on that bridge at that time and witnesses who claim to have seen a man similar to RA “muddy and bloody.”

Perhaps the bullet casing alone wouldn’t be enough, but it certainly adds a clue that something belonging to RA was at the scene. We have his lawyers desperate to eliminate anything discovered in his home, and we have his multiple confessions which LE tells us comport with the facts of the case.

IMO a telling detail such as using a box cutter from his place of business rings true.

AFAIK, RA has no alibi, unless the fish he alleges he was watching are able to speak out on his behalf.

Justice for you, Abby. Justice for you, Libby.
Peace for your families.

It can’t come soon enough.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

Why did RA stop confessing? His "psychosis" passed? His living conditions improved and he wasn't out of his mind?

He tells us why. Do right by God or do right by family. He's made a new choice. Which goes to show that he was aware of his previous choice (reasoned his way to each of them) and is making the opposite one, in order to satisfy his family. Dichotimous thinking. Lose his family in this life but be with them in the next. Or sell out on the next life to have them in this one. Nothing here about responsibility, ownership, remorse, repentance, just a whole big lot of RA self.

No more confessing. Not because he's innocent. Not because his previous confessions were false or even involuntary. He needs KA's approval. Hers and his mom's. So, just like he previously chose to confess (when he realized what the State had on him and believed he'd forever be separated from his family in this life), he is choosing to stop confessing so they'll still love him.

JMO

 

[Tealgrove]

Why did RA stop confessing? His "psychosis" passed? His living conditions improved and he wasn't out of his mind?

He tells us why. Do right by God or do right by family. He's made a new choice. Which goes to show that he was aware of his previous choice (reasoned his way to each of them) and is making the opposite one, in order to satisfy his family. Dichotimous thinking. Lose his family in this life but be with them in the next. Or sell out on the next life to have them in this one. Nothing here about responsibility, ownership, remorse, repentance, just a whole big lot of RA self.

No more confessing. Not because he's innocent. Not because his previous confessions were false or even involuntary. He needs KA's approval. Hers and his mom's. So, just like he previously chose to confess (when he realized what the State had on him and believed he'd forever be separated from his family in this life), he is choosing to stop confessing so they'll still love him.

JMO

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

 

[Inthedetails]

Why did RA stop confessing? His "psychosis" passed? His living conditions improved and he wasn't out of his mind?

He tells us why. Do right by God or do right by family. He's made a new choice. Which goes to show that he was aware of his previous choice (reasoned his way to each of them) and is making the opposite one, in order to satisfy his family. Dichotimous thinking. Lose his family in this life but be with them in the next. Or sell out on the next life to have them in this one. Nothing here about responsibility, ownership, remorse, repentance, just a whole big lot of RA self.

No more confessing. Not because he's innocent. Not because his previous confessions were false or even involuntary. He needs KA's approval. Hers and his mom's. So, just like he previously chose to confess (when he realized what the State had on him and believed he'd forever be separated from his family in this life), he is choosing to stop confessing so they'll still love him.

JMO

Yep.

jmo

 

[steeltowngirl]

Everyone absolutely wants justice for Abby and Libby. We want law enforcement to solve the case. I want the killers to pay, absolutely. But they need to prove this person did the crime and that it would be impossible to have been committed by another person. I don’t think that “he could be bridge guy” is acceptable when we’re convicting someone of a double homicide. There are way more factors of this case outside of a man seen in the back of the video that could be used to genuinely solve this case based on the actual crime scene.

We have a laws and a constitution in America that we need to follow. We don’t get to pick and choose who the law applies to. That’s a steep slope to everyone just giving up all of their rights and just bringing back lynching. Anyone who subscribes to that mindset has no idea the amount of false convictions that occur in this country. That is not a civilized society. We have a trial and convict the person on evidence before punishing them for a year in solitary confinement.

Administrative segregation, restricted housing unit, solitary confinement is all synonyms for the same thing. They just keep changing the name to make it sound better. You can Google what Westville calls their solitary confinement unit. We’re discussing the section of the prison where convicted inmates are punished by being held in a cell all day long alongside the worst of the worst convicted inmates. This is illegal in most civilized countries and is restricted to 30 days in Indiana.

All MOO

Doesn’t have to be impossible.
I am sure you know this, but it’s worth repeating.
There must be no other reasonable explanation.
BARD

 

[katydid23]

I think as far as accommodations go, it's probably going to be a lot more in your face noisy in county jail's general public atmosphere. He probably won't have control of his lights either. And yeah, he will still be a marked man and now with much less protection and less mental health care. MO

He probably won't have his own tablet or laptop either.

 

[Boxer]

Everyone absolutely wants justice for Abby and Libby. We want law enforcement to solve the case. I want the killers to pay, absolutely. But they need to prove this person did the crime and that it would be impossible to have been committed by another person. I don’t think that “he could be bridge guy” is acceptable when we’re convicting someone of a double homicide. There are way more factors of this case outside of a man seen in the back of the video that could be used to genuinely solve this case based on the actual crime scene.

We have a laws and a constitution in America that we need to follow. We don’t get to pick and choose who the law applies to. That’s a steep slope to everyone just giving up all of their rights and just bringing back lynching. Anyone who subscribes to that mindset has no idea the amount of false convictions that occur in this country. That is not a civilized society. We have a trial and convict the person on evidence before punishing them for a year in solitary confinement.

Administrative segregation, restricted housing unit, solitary confinement is all synonyms for the same thing. They just keep changing the name to make it sound better. You can Google what Westville calls their solitary confinement unit. We’re discussing the section of the prison where convicted inmates are punished by being held in a cell all day long alongside the worst of the worst convicted inmates. This is illegal in most civilized countries and is restricted to 30 days in Indiana.

All MOO

They do not have to prove the crime was impossible to have been committed by another person.
They need to prove RA did it beyond a reasonable doubt.

I do agree that segregation for one's safety should not be just solitary.

 

[photographer4]

Murder Sheet appeared on "The Prosecutors- Legal Briefs" - this is for you in you love 3 lawyers chewing over the legal arguments and evidence presented. Alice is a sharp critic of the defense legal strategy. For instance, on the confessions, she points out there is a process to suppress confessions, specifically one by one. The defence did not do that, but the reason is they don't have any good arguments to make. So they make generic arguments about state actors and harsh conditions.

ETA: They also cover a sleight of hand by the defence in relation to the FBI BAUs opinion on the case.

I’m listening to this just now and the lady from Ms is talking about the “confessions” by RA. She says she has paraphrased but he said something to the effect of “if you want this to be over let me know and I will tell the detectives what I know” (to his wife over a phone call).

If he said he would tell them what he knows, that to me doesn’t mean he killed the kids so much as it seems to say he has info he could share with LE about the case.

I am interested to learn more about his statements and confessions but I hope there is more substance than this. This could mean he saw something he shouldn’t have or could mean he heard things he wasn’t meant to. Or it could me some others are involved and he is afraid of them. Who knows. If he is guilty I hope he does the time.

 

[grannygates]

Very true.

However, IMO the guy in the back of the video cannot possibly be just an innocent man strolling by, since we can hear him saying, “Guys, down the hill.”

Therefore that man is likely the suspect. We can’t see clearly enough that this man is RA, but we can see enough to rule some things in or out. A white man, probably middle-aged, his clothing, body type, his apparel etc.

Of course we also have RA admitting he was on that bridge at that time and witnesses who claim to have seen a man similar to RA “muddy and bloody.”

Perhaps the bullet casing alone wouldn’t be enough, but it certainly adds a clue that something belonging to RA was at the scene. We have his lawyers desperate to eliminate anything discovered in his home, and we have his multiple confessions which LE tells us comport with the facts of the case.

IMO a telling detail such as using a box cutter from his place of business rings true.

AFAIK, RA has no alibi, unless the fish he alleges he was watching are able to speak out on his behalf.

Justice for you, Abby. Justice for you, Libby.
Peace for your families.

It can’t come soon enough.

JMO

We have no idea if the man in the back of the video is the man that is speaking because that is not shown on the video.

We don’t know if a box cutter was used in this crime. it sounds like it’s being introduced to match a statement made by RA.

The man that the witness saw at the bridge (the man in Libby’s vid) is not OBG. She was hounding the police to put out her sketch YBG because she said it was absolutely not OBG. She described a young guy with poofy brown hair, which if you look at the last frame of the BG video that looks like poofy brown hair. I think it’s impossible to make a definitive ID based on that video.

IMO A random bullet being found in the ground three weeks after the murders by possibly a random civilian with no chain of custody is a hard connection for me to be confident that it has anything relation to this crime to begin with.

The state has not made any mention of any RA cell phone data. His alibi is that he left at 1:30. The state hasn’t proven that he was on the trails after that, nor have they provided any cell phone data whatsoever to say where he was the entire day. We know that he wasn’t caught in the Geofence from the FBI agent. We also know that the FBI agent gave a list of people for law-enforcement to follow up on (which was destroyed). RA wasn’t on that list. All of that sounds fishy to me if they have cell phone data for all these other people.

So I personally would need a lot more than all that uncertainty to be convinced at this point. There’s also soooo much destroyed evidence and IMO Holeman sat up on the stand lying through his teeth. I honestly can’t even believe a single word the Unified Command says. At what point does all of this destroyed evidence no longer become a coincidence.

All just my thoughts !

MOO

 

[katydid23]

Iphone 6

I found this when googling:

6 Ways to Fix iPhone Keeps Turning On and Off

If you find that your iPhone keeps turning on and off, our full guide can give you the reasons why and also show you proper solutions.

www.macobserver.com

6 Ways to Fix iPhone Keeps Turning On and Off​

• Remember, if your iPhone keeps turning on and off, there can be issues with both hardware and software.
• Your iPhone may have a hardware problem. You may be experiencing issues with your iPhone turning off randomly due to a physical problem with your device. For example, you may be experiencing a problem due to water entering your battery. The battery may also simply be unable to hold a charge.

So this says that if an iPhone has water entering the battery it can make the phone turn on or off sporadically...I am pretty sure the phone was getting wet during this attack.

 

[nadia90]

I’m listening to this just now and the lady from Ms is talking about the “confessions” by RA. She says she has paraphrased but he said something to the effect of “if you want this to be over let me know and I will tell the detectives what I know” (to his wife over a phone call).

If he said he would tell them what he knows, that to me doesn’t mean he killed the kids so much as it seems to say he has info he could share with LE about the case.

I am interested to learn more about his statements and confessions but I hope there is more substance than this. This could mean he saw something he shouldn’t have or could mean he heard things he wasn’t meant to. Or it could me some others are involved and he is afraid of them. Who knows. If he is guilty I hope he does the time.

They have 61 of them, me thinks at least a few are quite incriminating

 

[grannygates]

They do not have to prove the crime was impossible to have been committed by another person.
They need to prove RA did it beyond a reasonable doubt.

I do agree that segregation for one's safety should not be just solitary.

I was just using my own opinion that if I thought that it was possible that anyone else could have committed this crime (using the info from the original investigation) then I would have doubt as to whether RA committed it.

 

[photographer4]

Why did RA stop confessing? His "psychosis" passed? His living conditions improved and he wasn't out of his mind?

He tells us why. Do right by God or do right by family. He's made a new choice. Which goes to show that he was aware of his previous choice (reasoned his way to each of them) and is making the opposite one, in order to satisfy his family. Dichotimous thinking. Lose his family in this life but be with them in the next. Or sell out on the next life to have them in this one. Nothing here about responsibility, ownership, remorse, repentance, just a whole big lot of RA self.

No more confessing. Not because he's innocent. Not because his previous confessions were false or even involuntary. He needs KA's approval. Hers and his mom's. So, just like he previously chose to confess (when he realized what the State had on him and believed he'd forever be separated from his family in this life), he is choosing to stop confessing so they'll still love him.

JMO

This is an interesting debacle and I do agree if he has reasoned his way from one place to another (god / fam) then it would show an awareness of his actions at the time of the crime. It would also make me wonder how he reasoned himself into committing them in the first place? Surely he would know people including his family would not be happy with him but he did so anyhow. Why?

 

[Romans12]

So this says that if an iPhone has water entering the battery it can make the phone turn on or off sporadically...I am pretty sure the phone was getting wet during this attack.

What with blood? Why are you pretty sure the phone was getting wet during the attack? Do you have a link to anything in court documents saying this?

 

[katydid23]

6 Ways to Fix iPhone Keeps Turning On and Off

If you find that your iPhone keeps turning on and off, our full guide can give you the reasons why and also show you proper solutions.

www.macobserver.com

6 Ways to Fix iPhone Keeps Turning On and Off

Remember, if your iPhone keeps turning on and off, there can be issues with both hardware and software.


Your iPhone may have a hardware problem. You may be experiencing issues with your iPhone turning off randomly due to a physical problem with your device.
For example, you may be experiencing a problem due to water entering your battery. The battery may also simply be unable to hold a charge.



[according to this website, people have been complaining about their iPhones randomly turning on or off---one cause for this can be traced to water seeping into the battery.....THAT could have easily cause Libby's phone to flick back on or off]