Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #190

[grannygates]

I’ve been hearing a lot about the FBI using the term “undoing “.

So I found this Very detailed, very informative research paper that explains undoing in detail and provides results on their study that was conducted using 975 FBIBAU cases. There are 11 cases at the end of the paper that Explained in detail the undoing that occurred in those. Its a great read.

They state that undoing is when the offender alters the crime scene in a way of symbolically undoing the murders. It is psychological, and personal to the offender. some options are washing the body, covering the body with a blanket, leaving objects like jewellery or flowers. They do clarify that the options for what could be “undoing” is unlimited so this is by no means a list of all options.

Undoing is not used to conceal the crime or destroy evidence. It is not used to hide a body, not used to intentionally mislead investigators, not for gain sexual gratification, not to shock the person who will eventually find the crime scene. It is an event that is personal to the offender and their own psychological process of the crime scene.

They stated that staging and posing in itself (as we saw in the RL SW) wouldn’t necessarily be undoing, but could be considered if there was a psychological symbolisation that would make these poses etc. personal to the offender.

In 10/11 cases they share the data from, the offender and the victim are known to each other. It is typically close family member or intimate partner.

Journal of Forensic Sciences Volume issue 2017 [doi 10.1111_1556-4029.13556] Russell, Maria; Schlesinger, Louis B.; Leon, Maria; Holdren, Sam -- “Undoing” (or Symbolic Reversal) at Homicide Crime Sc.pdf

J Forensic Sci, 2017 doi: 10.1111/1556-4029.13556 Available online at: onlinelibrary.wiley.com. PAPER PSYCHIATRY AND BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE. Maria Russell,1 M.A.; Louis B. Schlesinger,1 Ph.D.; Maria Leon,1 M.A.; and Samantha Holdren,1 M.A. “Undoing” (or Symbolic Reversal) at Homicide Crime Scenes†...

www.docdroid.net

ALL MOO

 

[Arkay]

There are way more factors of this case outside of a man seen in the back of the video that could be used to genuinely solve this case based on the actual crime scene.

Very true.

However, IMO the guy in the back of the video cannot possibly be just an innocent man strolling by, since we can hear him saying, “Guys, down the hill.”

Therefore that man is likely the suspect. We can’t see clearly enough that this man is RA, but we can see enough to rule some things in or out. A white man, probably middle-aged, his clothing, body type, his apparel etc.

Of course we also have RA admitting he was on that bridge at that time and witnesses who claim to have seen a man similar to RA “muddy and bloody.”

Perhaps the bullet casing alone wouldn’t be enough, but it certainly adds a clue that something belonging to RA was at the scene. We have his lawyers desperate to eliminate anything discovered in his home, and we have his multiple confessions which LE tells us comport with the facts of the case.

IMO a telling detail such as using a box cutter from his place of business rings true.

AFAIK, RA has no alibi, unless the fish he alleges he was watching are able to speak out on his behalf.

Justice for you, Abby. Justice for you, Libby.
Peace for your families.

It can’t come soon enough.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

Why did RA stop confessing? His "psychosis" passed? His living conditions improved and he wasn't out of his mind?

He tells us why. Do right by God or do right by family. He's made a new choice. Which goes to show that he was aware of his previous choice (reasoned his way to each of them) and is making the opposite one, in order to satisfy his family. Dichotimous thinking. Lose his family in this life but be with them in the next. Or sell out on the next life to have them in this one. Nothing here about responsibility, ownership, remorse, repentance, just a whole big lot of RA self.

No more confessing. Not because he's innocent. Not because his previous confessions were false or even involuntary. He needs KA's approval. Hers and his mom's. So, just like he previously chose to confess (when he realized what the State had on him and believed he'd forever be separated from his family in this life), he is choosing to stop confessing so they'll still love him.

JMO

 

[Tealgrove]

Why did RA stop confessing? His "psychosis" passed? His living conditions improved and he wasn't out of his mind?

He tells us why. Do right by God or do right by family. He's made a new choice. Which goes to show that he was aware of his previous choice (reasoned his way to each of them) and is making the opposite one, in order to satisfy his family. Dichotimous thinking. Lose his family in this life but be with them in the next. Or sell out on the next life to have them in this one. Nothing here about responsibility, ownership, remorse, repentance, just a whole big lot of RA self.

No more confessing. Not because he's innocent. Not because his previous confessions were false or even involuntary. He needs KA's approval. Hers and his mom's. So, just like he previously chose to confess (when he realized what the State had on him and believed he'd forever be separated from his family in this life), he is choosing to stop confessing so they'll still love him.

JMO

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

 

[Inthedetails]

Why did RA stop confessing? His "psychosis" passed? His living conditions improved and he wasn't out of his mind?

He tells us why. Do right by God or do right by family. He's made a new choice. Which goes to show that he was aware of his previous choice (reasoned his way to each of them) and is making the opposite one, in order to satisfy his family. Dichotimous thinking. Lose his family in this life but be with them in the next. Or sell out on the next life to have them in this one. Nothing here about responsibility, ownership, remorse, repentance, just a whole big lot of RA self.

No more confessing. Not because he's innocent. Not because his previous confessions were false or even involuntary. He needs KA's approval. Hers and his mom's. So, just like he previously chose to confess (when he realized what the State had on him and believed he'd forever be separated from his family in this life), he is choosing to stop confessing so they'll still love him.

JMO

Yep.

jmo

 

[steeltowngirl]

Everyone absolutely wants justice for Abby and Libby. We want law enforcement to solve the case. I want the killers to pay, absolutely. But they need to prove this person did the crime and that it would be impossible to have been committed by another person. I don’t think that “he could be bridge guy” is acceptable when we’re convicting someone of a double homicide. There are way more factors of this case outside of a man seen in the back of the video that could be used to genuinely solve this case based on the actual crime scene.

We have a laws and a constitution in America that we need to follow. We don’t get to pick and choose who the law applies to. That’s a steep slope to everyone just giving up all of their rights and just bringing back lynching. Anyone who subscribes to that mindset has no idea the amount of false convictions that occur in this country. That is not a civilized society. We have a trial and convict the person on evidence before punishing them for a year in solitary confinement.

Administrative segregation, restricted housing unit, solitary confinement is all synonyms for the same thing. They just keep changing the name to make it sound better. You can Google what Westville calls their solitary confinement unit. We’re discussing the section of the prison where convicted inmates are punished by being held in a cell all day long alongside the worst of the worst convicted inmates. This is illegal in most civilized countries and is restricted to 30 days in Indiana.

All MOO

Doesn’t have to be impossible.
I am sure you know this, but it’s worth repeating.
There must be no other reasonable explanation.
BARD

 

[katydid23]

I think as far as accommodations go, it's probably going to be a lot more in your face noisy in county jail's general public atmosphere. He probably won't have control of his lights either. And yeah, he will still be a marked man and now with much less protection and less mental health care. MO

He probably won't have his own tablet or laptop either.

 

[Boxer]

Everyone absolutely wants justice for Abby and Libby. We want law enforcement to solve the case. I want the killers to pay, absolutely. But they need to prove this person did the crime and that it would be impossible to have been committed by another person. I don’t think that “he could be bridge guy” is acceptable when we’re convicting someone of a double homicide. There are way more factors of this case outside of a man seen in the back of the video that could be used to genuinely solve this case based on the actual crime scene.

We have a laws and a constitution in America that we need to follow. We don’t get to pick and choose who the law applies to. That’s a steep slope to everyone just giving up all of their rights and just bringing back lynching. Anyone who subscribes to that mindset has no idea the amount of false convictions that occur in this country. That is not a civilized society. We have a trial and convict the person on evidence before punishing them for a year in solitary confinement.

Administrative segregation, restricted housing unit, solitary confinement is all synonyms for the same thing. They just keep changing the name to make it sound better. You can Google what Westville calls their solitary confinement unit. We’re discussing the section of the prison where convicted inmates are punished by being held in a cell all day long alongside the worst of the worst convicted inmates. This is illegal in most civilized countries and is restricted to 30 days in Indiana.

All MOO

They do not have to prove the crime was impossible to have been committed by another person.
They need to prove RA did it beyond a reasonable doubt.

I do agree that segregation for one's safety should not be just solitary.

 

[grannygates]

Very true.

However, IMO the guy in the back of the video cannot possibly be just an innocent man strolling by, since we can hear him saying, “Guys, down the hill.”

Therefore that man is likely the suspect. We can’t see clearly enough that this man is RA, but we can see enough to rule some things in or out. A white man, probably middle-aged, his clothing, body type, his apparel etc.

Of course we also have RA admitting he was on that bridge at that time and witnesses who claim to have seen a man similar to RA “muddy and bloody.”

Perhaps the bullet casing alone wouldn’t be enough, but it certainly adds a clue that something belonging to RA was at the scene. We have his lawyers desperate to eliminate anything discovered in his home, and we have his multiple confessions which LE tells us comport with the facts of the case.

IMO a telling detail such as using a box cutter from his place of business rings true.

AFAIK, RA has no alibi, unless the fish he alleges he was watching are able to speak out on his behalf.

Justice for you, Abby. Justice for you, Libby.
Peace for your families.

It can’t come soon enough.

JMO

We have no idea if the man in the back of the video is the man that is speaking because that is not shown on the video.

We don’t know if a box cutter was used in this crime. it sounds like it’s being introduced to match a statement made by RA.

The man that the witness saw at the bridge (the man in Libby’s vid) is not OBG. She was hounding the police to put out her sketch YBG because she said it was absolutely not OBG. She described a young guy with poofy brown hair, which if you look at the last frame of the BG video that looks like poofy brown hair. I think it’s impossible to make a definitive ID based on that video.

IMO A random bullet being found in the ground three weeks after the murders by possibly a random civilian with no chain of custody is a hard connection for me to be confident that it has anything relation to this crime to begin with.

The state has not made any mention of any RA cell phone data. His alibi is that he left at 1:30. The state hasn’t proven that he was on the trails after that, nor have they provided any cell phone data whatsoever to say where he was the entire day. We know that he wasn’t caught in the Geofence from the FBI agent. We also know that the FBI agent gave a list of people for law-enforcement to follow up on (which was destroyed). RA wasn’t on that list. All of that sounds fishy to me if they have cell phone data for all these other people.

So I personally would need a lot more than all that uncertainty to be convinced at this point. There’s also soooo much destroyed evidence and IMO Holeman sat up on the stand lying through his teeth. I honestly can’t even believe a single word the Unified Command says. At what point does all of this destroyed evidence no longer become a coincidence.

All just my thoughts !

MOO

 

[katydid23]

Iphone 6

I found this when googling:

6 Ways to Fix iPhone Keeps Turning On and Off

If you find that your iPhone keeps turning on and off, our full guide can give you the reasons why and also show you proper solutions.

www.macobserver.com

6 Ways to Fix iPhone Keeps Turning On and Off​

• Remember, if your iPhone keeps turning on and off, there can be issues with both hardware and software.
• Your iPhone may have a hardware problem. You may be experiencing issues with your iPhone turning off randomly due to a physical problem with your device. For example, you may be experiencing a problem due to water entering your battery. The battery may also simply be unable to hold a charge.

So this says that if an iPhone has water entering the battery it can make the phone turn on or off sporadically...I am pretty sure the phone was getting wet during this attack.

 

[grannygates]

They do not have to prove the crime was impossible to have been committed by another person.
They need to prove RA did it beyond a reasonable doubt.

I do agree that segregation for one's safety should not be just solitary.

I was just using my own opinion that if I thought that it was possible that anyone else could have committed this crime (using the info from the original investigation) then I would have doubt as to whether RA committed it.

 

[photographer4]

Why did RA stop confessing? His "psychosis" passed? His living conditions improved and he wasn't out of his mind?

He tells us why. Do right by God or do right by family. He's made a new choice. Which goes to show that he was aware of his previous choice (reasoned his way to each of them) and is making the opposite one, in order to satisfy his family. Dichotimous thinking. Lose his family in this life but be with them in the next. Or sell out on the next life to have them in this one. Nothing here about responsibility, ownership, remorse, repentance, just a whole big lot of RA self.

No more confessing. Not because he's innocent. Not because his previous confessions were false or even involuntary. He needs KA's approval. Hers and his mom's. So, just like he previously chose to confess (when he realized what the State had on him and believed he'd forever be separated from his family in this life), he is choosing to stop confessing so they'll still love him.

JMO

This is an interesting debacle and I do agree if he has reasoned his way from one place to another (god / fam) then it would show an awareness of his actions at the time of the crime. It would also make me wonder how he reasoned himself into committing them in the first place? Surely he would know people including his family would not be happy with him but he did so anyhow. Why?

 

[Romans12]

So this says that if an iPhone has water entering the battery it can make the phone turn on or off sporadically...I am pretty sure the phone was getting wet during this attack.

What with blood? Why are you pretty sure the phone was getting wet during the attack? Do you have a link to anything in court documents saying this?

 

[katydid23]

6 Ways to Fix iPhone Keeps Turning On and Off

If you find that your iPhone keeps turning on and off, our full guide can give you the reasons why and also show you proper solutions.

www.macobserver.com

6 Ways to Fix iPhone Keeps Turning On and Off

Remember, if your iPhone keeps turning on and off, there can be issues with both hardware and software.


Your iPhone may have a hardware problem. You may be experiencing issues with your iPhone turning off randomly due to a physical problem with your device.
For example, you may be experiencing a problem due to water entering your battery. The battery may also simply be unable to hold a charge.



[according to this website, people have been complaining about their iPhones randomly turning on or off---one cause for this can be traced to water seeping into the battery.....THAT could have easily cause Libby's phone to flick back on or off]

 

[katydid23]

What with blood? Why are you pretty sure the phone was getting wet during the attack? Do you have a link to anything in court documents saying this?

They are alleged to have waded across the creek. It also could have been blood if the neck was cut so deeply.

 

[Romans12]

They are alleged to have waded across the creek.

When has the State said in official court proceedings that they waded across the creek?

 

[katydid23]

We have no idea if the man in the back of the video is the man that is speaking because that is not shown on the video.

Who else could have been speaking? He was the only man there.

 

[steeltowngirl]

We have no idea if the man in the back of the video is the man that is speaking because that is not shown on the video.

We don’t know if a box cutter was used in this crime. it sounds like it’s being introduced to match a statement made by RA.

The man that the witness saw at the bridge (the man in Libby’s vid) is not OBG. She was hounding the police to put out her sketch YBG because she said it was absolutely not OBG. She described a young guy with poofy brown hair, which if you look at the last frame of the BG video that looks like poofy brown hair. I think it’s impossible to make a definitive ID based on that video.

IMO A random bullet being found in the ground three weeks after the murders by possibly a random civilian with no chain of custody is a hard connection for me to be confident that it has anything relation to this crime to begin with.

The state has not made any mention of any RA cell phone data. His alibi is that he left at 1:30. The state hasn’t proven that he was on the trails after that, nor have they provided any cell phone data whatsoever to say where he was the entire day. We know that he wasn’t caught in the Geofence from the FBI agent. We also know that the FBI agent gave a list of people for law-enforcement to follow up on (which was destroyed). RA wasn’t on that list. All of that sounds fishy to me if they have cell phone data for all these other people.

So I personally would need a lot more than all that uncertainty to be convinced at this point. There’s also soooo much destroyed evidence and IMO Holeman sat up on the stand lying through his teeth. I honestly can’t even believe a single word the Unified Command says. At what point does all of this destroyed evidence no longer become a coincidence.

All just my thoughts !

MOO

Q. Do investigators believe the bridge photo and voice belong to same person?

A. Yes

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers

 

[Romans12]

Who else could have been speaking? He was the only man there.

How do you know he was the only man there? LE has stated the opposite.

 

[grannygates]

The discussion about the iPhone getting wet actually reminded me of a question that I had about the testimony of the crime scene expert!

I don’t recall it being relayed anywhere, but does anyone know if the crime scene expert said that any of the clothing on Abby was wet? I only recall the specific mention of the hoodie of the hood. But nothing about the remainder of the outfit, whether that was wet.


This might be a wait and see question.

MOO