Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #190

[grannygates]

Why would she have been hanging upside down?

They can tell from Abby’s Hood she was lying down when killed due to blood pooling.

The hanging upside down was another fabricated lie from the Defense.

MOO

The testimony from the states own expert goes into that discussion, as IMO it is suggested that the blood on her face would have otherwise have defied gravity.

MOO

 

[photographer4]

That's also why so many bad people finally get caught, inconsistencies. I look forward to see DD on the stand and hear about the interview first hand what he remembers. He may have even kept his original notes.

A question about people who are expected to be witnesses in the upcoming trial:

How much (if any) interaction are they likely to have had with co-witnesses? The media? Social media? In regards to this case? How might these interactions affect their recall / testimony?

I am NOT suggesting anyone would make up anything to testify about. I am however, hoping that witnesses like the kids on the trail who saw BG, or DD who met with him etc all spoke with police before talking with eachother / others about what they saw / heard / experienced etc.... This link may help explain my concern: https://pure.hud.ac.uk/ws/portalfil...ngers_of_Co_Witness_Familiarity_pre_proof.pdf

 

[grannygates]

Unfortunately it seems to be difficult to come across any accurate summery of the examination of the state's digital expert.

I guess my problem with trying to read anything into this, is if the phone really was switched on at 4.30am by an unknown person - wouldn't the evidence of that be not only the tower handshake but also the phones own onboard logs?

Like if someone actually turned it off about 2.30pm when the girls were bundled into a waiting car, then switched it back on at the crime scene at 4.30am - those two events are surely logged, and then the investigation looks completely different from the first days.

So my feeling is, we can't simply say "data exchange at 4.30am" = "phone turned on" unless the logs support that idea.

As usual, we'll probably need to wait until trial.

MOO

I think this data would be considered the device log. This isn’t ping or tower data, but rather the time stamp record that 14 messages (sent throughout the night) were received by the phone, all at once, indicating the phone was turned on or taken off airplane mode, etc.

Some manipulation occurred to allow the phone to those receive messages all at once at that time but also not run out of battery overnight. MOO

 

[Salah11]

I think this data would be considered the device log. This isn’t ping or tower data, but rather the time stamp record that 14 messages (sent throughout the night) were received by the phone, all at once, indicating the phone was turned on or taken off airplane mode, etc.

Some manipulation occurred to allow the phone to those receive messages all at once at that time but also not run out of battery overnight. MOO

Or a bad signal because of where they were found and, let’s not forget, the phone could have been saturated with blood and water and found under a body. It picked up a strong signal at one point and all the messages went through at once. IMO

 

[MollyDDD]

I may be misremembering. I thought there was discussion early on that law enforcement went to stores around the area inquiring about customers who recently purchased knives. It made me think the murder weapon was unique or a very specific type of knife. A box cutter doesn’t really jive with that. That may have just been a rumor though.

I too remember that in the very beginning. When I read “box cutter”recently, it puzzled me.
Does anyone else remember the photo with a fancy handled knife laying front and center on a certain drawing board?

 

[grannygates]

Or a bad signal because of where they were found and, let’s not forget, the phone could have been saturated with blood and water and found under a body. It picked up a strong signal at one point and all the messages went through at once. IMO

This is not a suggestion that I’ve seen made by any expert. I don’t understand the concept of a phone becoming wet or saturated enough to destroy it, then somehow drying out and turning itself on.

I also don’t understand if the phone remains in one place from 2:40 PM (I think was the guess ?) until 4:30 AM, what changes at 4:30am that would suddenly cause it to gain signal that it didn’t have for the 11 hours prior?

IMO to me it seems to be a situation where the most straightforward answer is the most likely.

The expert does goes through explaining the data in their testimony and it was one of the experts that the murder sheet covered on their episode.

MOO

 

[photographer4]

I think it is important to remember that RA did not go talk to any of the investigators or police officers. He met very informally with a fish and game warden---a conservation officer. That guy was not front and center on the case. That was intentional on RA's part, imo.

The conservation officer just jotted down his notes and it seems like he saw this as a local who came forward to help but he didn't really see anything so whatever...

If it had been one of the police officers or investigators the interview would have been more in-depth, once he said he was on the bridge that afternoon. IMO

I actually did wonder how RA came to the attention of DD. EG: did RA call the police and they dispatched DD because they were super busy and didn't have time or maybe was DD canvassing the local businesses and looking for anyone who may have been there, or had knowledge of someone who'd been there???

 

[photographer4]

60 confesses with some having details only the killer would know begs to differ.

IMO

IMO this only begs to differ if he came up with those details entirely on his own without any help (intentional or not) from LE / investigators / anyone in the prison / the courts / disclosure provided by his lawyers etc.

I'd give them far more weight if he could have had NO other way to come up with such details and / or had given these confessions BEFORE he was arrested.

 

[grannygates]

IMO this only begs to differ if he came up with those details entirely on his own without any help (intentional or not) from LE / investigators / anyone in the prison / the courts / disclosure provided by his lawyers etc.

I'd give them far more weight if he could have had NO other way to come up with such details and / or had given these confessions BEFORE he was arrested.

And it makes me wonder why the prosecution is asking for some of the confessions to be excluded too..? MOO

 

[Quim The Extraordinaire]

The subject matter expert was the odinism expert and they were discussing the likelihood of certain weapons being used Vs the autopsy report. MOO

Thank you.
I do not consider her credible. MOO.
If a “serrated edge” is referenced in the autopsy report — which I don’t think has been released — then I’ll be interested in how a box cutter compares.
As you and others have noted, not having a stream of the hearings is problematic when discussing testimony.

JMO IMO ETC

 

[sunshineray]

A question about people who are expected to be witnesses in the upcoming trial:

How much (if any) interaction are they likely to have had with co-witnesses? The media? Social media? In regards to this case? How might these interactions affect their recall / testimony?

I am NOT suggesting anyone would make up anything to testify about. I am however, hoping that witnesses like the kids on the trail who saw BG, or DD who met with him etc all spoke with police before talking with eachother / others about what they saw / heard / experienced etc.... This link may help explain my concern: https://pure.hud.ac.uk/ws/portalfil...ngers_of_Co_Witness_Familiarity_pre_proof.pdf

They will have made initial interview statements and maybe some even more statements after that. Did the D depose them, maybe even more statements?

Like I've said before, people don't live in a bubble. Unfortunately we have a D that have used filings to talk about protected discovery, have been involved with leaking protected discovery via their office and have been accused of spreading protected discovery via social media actors numerous times.

Has that maybe influenced how people in general think, probably. Will that effect what the testify to, most likely not, their statements are recorded. Will they need to have their memories refreshed on the stand, possibly. It has been 7 years.
MO

 

[grannygates]

Thank you.
I do not consider her credible. MOO.
If a “serrated edge” is referenced in the autopsy report — which I don’t think has been released — then I’ll be interested in how a box cutter compares.
As you and others have noted, not having a stream of the hearings is problematic when discussing testimony.

JMO IMO ETC

She’s not the pathologist and the autopsy report isn’t her report nor findings, so her own credibility isn’t attached to validity of that report.

The expert and the prosecutor both have access to this autopsy report, so if the expert responded with incorrect information citing the autopsy, I would expect the prosecutor to correct her and correct the court record.

It is definitely challenging not having cameras in the courtroom and this type of reporting on the court hearings. We can just cross our fingers and hope these transcripts come out soon !

MOO

 

[MiniMoo]

The testimony from the states own expert goes into that discussion, as IMO it is suggested that the blood on her face would have otherwise have defied gravity.

MOO

Why would she have been hanging upside down?

They can tell from Abby’s Hood she was lying down when killed due to blood pooling.

The hanging upside down was another fabricated lie from the Defense.

MOO

Abby Williams

Underneath her hoodie it was saturated with blood (back of) and she only had a small nick or cut on her neck. It seems she was killed where she laid - one wound only. There was blood around or near the cut.

There was no blood on the two bras or tank top she had on nor on her hands or sleeves.

The blood pattern over her face indicated that her head had probably been moved because the blood flow was found going in a different direction to what it should have been with the way way she was found, also, she had blood flow over her chin so at some point she may have been moved into an upright position.

It seems Abby and Libby were definitely not hung up by their ankles or feet.

 

[sunshineray]

I may be misremembering. I thought there was discussion early on that law enforcement went to stores around the area inquiring about customers who recently purchased knives. It made me think the murder weapon was unique or a very specific type of knife. A box cutter doesn’t really jive with that. That may have just been a rumor though.

There are box cutters that look very much like a knife, some even folding just like a pocketknife. Just a couple out there...

 

[grannygates]

Abby Williams

Underneath her hoodie it was saturated with blood (back of) and she only had a small nick or cut on her neck - it seems she was killed where she laid - one wound only. There was blood around or near the cut.

There was no blood on the two bras or tank top she had on nor on her hands or sleeves.

The blood pattern over her face indicated that her head had probably been moved because the blood flow was found going in a different direction to what it should have been with the way way she was found, also, she had blood flow over her chin so at some point she may have been moved into an upright position.

It seems Abby and Libby were definitely not hung up by their ankles or feet.

I think the “upright” might mean upside down (but not directly referring to the entire body) because the flow from the neck up over the chin would be mean the blood travelled upwards, not down. A compromise offered was that she may have been carried which caused her head to fall backwards, “upside down”, causing this upward action.

It’s also confusing because the state is suggesting Abby was redressed but then their own expert says she wasn’t? So it’s hard to decipher with any real certainty what’s actually happening behind these closed doors !

MOO

 

[MiniMoo]

And it makes me wonder why the prosecution is asking for some of the confessions to be excluded too..? MOO

I'm sure some of his confessions have in them different methods of how he killed rather than how the girls really met their fate. Like he shot them both in the back maybe one with the point being made that RA said anything and everything due to his mental health being so bad.

 

[gremlin444]

Just got back from a Home Depot where I was taking a shortcut through the aisle where they have box cutters. And my eye got caught by a package of serrated box knife replacement blades.

Husky Serrated Blade (50-Pack) HKY00015 - The Home Depot

Husky Serrated blades last longer than standard single edge blades by engaging multiple cutting edges simultaneously, extending the cutting life of the blade. Less blade changes saves you time. The precision

www.homedepot.com

Checked online once I got home. Apparently, I could walk into any hardware store in my area and find multiple brands of serrated box knife blades. And not marketed as being carpet knives, etc.

So, FWIW, such a product does exist and while not being the default blade for utility knives/box cutters, it isn't extremely rare either.

 

[photographer4]

They will have made initial interview statements and maybe some even more statements after that. Did the D depose them, maybe even more statements?

Like I've said before, people don't live in a bubble. Unfortunately we have a D that have used filings to talk about protected discovery, have been involved with leaking protected discovery via their office and have been accused of spreading protected discovery via social media actors numerous times.

Has that maybe influenced how people in general think, probably. Will that effect what the testify to, most likely not, their statements are recorded. Will they need to have their memories refreshed on the stand, possibly. It has been 7 years.
MO

Even before speaking with police though, it is quite likely that the girls who saw someone on the trail that day conferred with eachother, and possibly their parents and others BEFORE they contacted LE. So according to the research I've done on the issue of witness reliability and accuracy, it seems that just the act of discussing what they saw with eachother could easily have impacted their statements to police. EG:

If the kid were walking and noticed BG, one may have said to the others at the time something like (and this is ONLY an example, so do NOT take as fact pls):
1. Omg did you see that guy! He just STARED at me!
2. What was with the face covering?
3. And why the need for a hat? Wait, are you sure he was wearing a Face covering?
1. Right? That covering just made those eyes creepier!! I saw a hat, it was brown.
3. No it was green!
1. Oh! It must have been green, you're right!

So now they've discussed it and formed their thoughts collectively and then the murders happen and now they're really talking to one another and parents and others (likely) about it before calling LE. And now somehow someone thinks he had blue eyes, someone else thinks brown. Someone thinks he didn't have a hat, but someone thinks he did - that person doesn't want to seem unreliable so they just agree that he did.

Then they talk to police... if police say:
Your friend thinks the guy wore a green hat is that right?

The witness, who wants to be helpful, might just agree with this because its been suggested to them. By the cop, by the friends etc... even if they aren't 100% sure of the fact themselves.

Ideally, a witness sees an event and does not talk to anyone before writing down what they saw and giving an interview to police to get it recorded. I'm not saying this happened here, but I'd really like to know what the events were that lead to the kids calling LE to report what they'd seen - who they talked to, when, how long before they gave statements etc. How similar were their statements? Where did they differ?

It is just an interesting topic to me considering that witness statements are a major factor in wrongful imprisonment.... imo.

 

[MiniMoo]

I think the “upright” might mean upside down (but not directly referring to the entire body) because the flow from the neck up over the chin would be mean the blood travelled upwards, not down. A compromise offered was that she may have been carried which caused her head to fall backwards, “upside down”, causing this upward action.

It’s also confusing because the state is suggesting Abby was redressed but then their own expert says she wasn’t? So it’s hard to decipher with any real certainty what’s actually happening behind these closed doors !

MOO

I thought upright meant like a sitting position or something.

If say she was hung upside down the blood I don't think would have pooled like it did to the back of her and I'm sure blood would have splattered on other surfaces even if minuscule.

The only blood found all over the place was from Libby.

Exsanguination was what was used for Abby.

 

[sunshineray]

DBM