Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #191

[Caylee Advocate]

But they are going to forensically test for DNA on both bodies anyway. I am sure they expected that one or both of the girls had been assaulted or molested. So they were going to use infrared lights and everything possible to find where they should swab. IMO

Possibly, BUT if EF said he spit on her "after death" it is my opinion AW was cleansed via some means so his spit would have gone bye bye IMO.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

A few voices on the internet are not going to change the facts. The Jury won’t have an agenda and will stick to the letter of the law and won’t ignore evidence just because it doesn’t fit their theory. IMO

Sure wish someone would have told the Casey Anthony jury that.

 

[katydid23]

Yes, according to the FM, pg 73, it was on October 24th 2017 that he told his sister Joyce Moffatt that he was there at the trails and bridge with two other guys and he spit on one of the girls.

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion.pdf

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Police have more than 10,000 tips and the reward is at $219,000 and counting. The tight knit community of Delphi has come together during this tragedy and has held several fundraisers for the girls and their families.[mar 11,2017]

https://fox59.com/news/police-continue-manhunt-for-killer-of-two-delphi-teens-community-raises-reward-money/

Delphi investigation reward fund gets $100K donation​

The total reward fund is now up to $325,000. [April, 2017]


So in 2017, the reward money was up to 325,000 dollars. Could that have enticed people to turn in someone who allegedly confessed to them?

 

[steeltowngirl]

Hi friends, I have been following this nightmarish case for a number of years, and after the last year of warring podcasts/YT, I am more confused than even when RA was first indicted. I have been following the threads on WS for a few weeks and I wanted to thank you for sharing some really good, well-sourced information.
Some thoughts re: Evidence, as I am trying to work out if my understanding is sound. (A lot of it is speculation on my part)

a) PCA: When I first read through RA's PCA, I was worried about the case against RA. Comparing it to the Idaho PCA that came out soon after, I found it less compelling - as in, it didn't include the 'GOTCHA' moment I was somehow expecting, MOO. However, after reading through other PCAs, I am now neutral; I realise that in this case, the LE's line is keeping as much information out of the public eye, so I am starting to understand that they are only included as much information as they needed to meet the Probable Cause burden. Of course, it could be that this is all they have, in which case, BARD will be hard to be met. IMO.

b) Tool mark analysis: MS is a podcast that inspires a lot of emotion, but in their 23d of August 2023 episode they had a forensics expert discuss the validity of toolmark analysis. In my understanding, Indiana does accept tool mark analysis in court but it is a process that's vulnerable to attack from the DT. While I don't personally doubt the existence of the ejected round, for me it is a mid-low weight piece of evidence, unless something comes out on trial (aka - if they have found a box of the same type of ammunition in RA's home, if they prove that from all gun owners only less than 5% use that brand, etc)

c) SODDI defence strategy: I don't understand the current angle. I see the appeal of the conspiracy angle and IMO it worked in Karen Reads' case well enough (I am still waiting to learn, if we ever learn, what compelled the jurors to vote the way they did) BUT. I personally believe that the alibis mentioned in the pretrial hearing for the main person linking LG and AW to the Odinist theory, BH, have been checked as thoroughly as possible. Of course there could be a 'what if' - the time was off, 'what if' - someone else clocked out, 'what if' - more cars were present maybe via the cemetery and 'what if' the helicopters never spotted them BUT I personally believe in the shorter path approach. Yes, they could be implicated if those 3-4 things that we have no evidence on are true, but there is a shorter path.

Which leads me to - RL and KK and his father. If we are to create reasonable doubt, I believe that there is an equal amount of 'proof' - aka the number of years and searches and resources the LE spent on these two as POI to create some kind of doubt for RA's guilt. Why does the Defence take the much more arduous and harder to prove path of resurrecting a group conspiracy - instead of leaning into the two, IMO, more believable alternative options, that require way fewer logical steps?

d) Confessions: Ooof. False confessions are very real. However, I spent a few hours looking into the Innocence Project and the data that have come out of acquittals/reverals. I hope it is ok to share a link: Do laypeople recognize youth as a risk factor for false confession? A test of the ‘common sense’ hypothesis

To quote the article: In their analysis of 125 proven false confessions, Drizin and Leo (2004) noted that a disproportionately high percentage (33%) came from juveniles, most of whom were age 15 years or younger. Similarly, Gross and Schaffer (2012) found false confessions in 42% of juvenile exonerations (compared to 15% of all exonerations).

Age is a factor. Reading some of the research, it also seems that the majority of false confessions happen during a single long interrogation. I have found very little data on spontaneous confessions given while kept on solitary-like conditions and I understand that this is because this is a very very unique case. Still, I am thinking that if allowed, the recordings of the confessions will be a high weight piece of evidence.

I believe the timing of the confessions and whether RA had access to discovery or not, will be detrimental, and we will have a black and white answer to that come trial.


To conclude, I am on the fence on whether the evidence will reach BARD. I don't enjoy being on the fence. My biggest worry is a hung jury. While we may never know with absolute certainty what happened in the last horrific moments of their life, the jurors will have to decide based on oftentimes conflicting information. And that's a heavy burden, but that's the nature of the justice system.

However, beyond the future juries, beyond RA and the number of people who have been dragged into this and are potentially innocent, my heart goes out to the families of the two girls who have been retraumatised over and over through this impossibly chaotic process. I hope for the sake of the families and the loved ones that the sensationalism will end, and some kind of outcome will be reached in October.

Great first post! Welcome to Websleuths.

 

[ClearAhead]

Latter part of 2017 IIRC MOO

Hmm I recall not long ago here the discussion was that EF supposedly confessed to his sister almost immediately following the murders, so soon after that it was questionable if it was reported in the news yet.

 

[photographer4]

Police officers are not automatically going to record every single conversation, unless they happen to have their shoulder cams on. But RA was not being interrogated as a possible suspect. He was someone who called in as a possible witness. That is not high priority evidence when he said basically he saw nothing important, did not even see the victims.

He just came across as a run of the mill local family man, working at CVS. No reason to think his comments needed to be on video at the time. IMO

Oh hindsight man. I hope they use this as a lesson going forward to *always* record the witness statements, even the insignificant seeming ones! I guess DD hasn’t found the recording he thought he made for that first mtg with RA then? I wonder how many interviews he did that seemed not important and of those, how many he may have recorded? Are those still available I wonder? Or just gone missing as seemed not important? MOOO as no link but we have discussed this before, so hopefully is ok.

 

[photographer4]

Hmm I recall not long ago here the discussion was that EF supposedly confessed to his sister almost immediately following the murders, so soon after that it was questionable if it was reported in the news yet.

So if he did tell her whatever he told her soon after the murders then why is it questionable as to whether their murders had yet made the news? Just wondering (is ok if we don’t know, I’m just asking in case someone does know). How long after he made statements to the sister did she contact police? What did they ask her specifically? What did they ask EF specifically? I’m eternally skeptical I think of statements by witnesses… thank my criminology course for this. LMAO.

 

[grannygates]

Police officers are not automatically going to record every single conversation, unless they happen to have their shoulder cams on. But RA was not being interrogated as a possible suspect. He was someone who called in as a possible witness. That is not high priority evidence when he said basically he saw nothing important, did not even see the victims.

He just came across as a run of the mill local family man, working at CVS. No reason to think his comments needed to be on video at the time. IMO

If you do not audio or video record, you are running a huge risk of taking this person into a court room and having them on the stand and the lawyer asks them a question based on this written report and the person just says no, that’s not true. Then what?

You have no audio or video of them actually saying it, so you can’t prove it if they disagree, so none of that written report means anything because you can’t back it up. People write things down wrong all the time - Richard Whiteman. There’s a good reason why bodycameras/interview cameras/dash cams are standard now.

MOO

 

[ClearAhead]

Oh hindsight man. I hope they use this as a lesson going forward to *always* record the witness statements, even the insignificant seeming ones! I guess DD hasn’t found the recording he thought he made for that first mtg with RA then? I wonder how many interviews he did that seemed not important and of those, how many he may have recorded? Are those still available I wonder? Or just gone missing as seemed not important? MOOO as no link but we have discussed this before, so hopefully is ok.

Interviews that are recorded are not written in stone. Defendants can retract what they said and it certainly happens. “oh yes I was later thinking about that and what I meant to say was……”

 

[grannygates]

Hmm I recall not long ago here the discussion was that EF supposedly confessed to his sister almost immediately following the murders, so soon after that it was questionable if it was reported in the news yet.

He did the next morning and the sister called in right away to report but couldn’t get LE to call her back so she eventually had to contact her friend at Homeland Security to help her get in contact with Ferency, I think it was.

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf - ANDREW J. BALDWIN

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[steeltowngirl]

I do know there were others investigated yes. But I still want the State to present one super strong case against RA to get that BARD conviction.

I strongly believe most of us here want a fair trial, and only if the prosecution can prove RA’s guilt to a jury BARD, should he then be convicted.

I initially felt the PCA was weak, and the bullet evidence and the witnesses would be heavily disputed at trial.

Ironically, it’s been the defense’s unusual approach that has strengthened my belief that the prosecution’s evidence against RA will be mighty and powerful at trial.

jmo

 

[susiQ]

Police have more than 10,000 tips and the reward is at $219,000 and counting. The tight knit community of Delphi has come together during this tragedy and has held several fundraisers for the girls and their families.[mar 11,2017]

https://fox59.com/news/police-continue-manhunt-for-killer-of-two-delphi-teens-community-raises-reward-money/

Delphi investigation reward fund gets $100K donation​

The total reward fund is now up to $325,000. [April, 2017]


So in 2017, the reward money was up to 325,000 dollars. Could that have enticed people to turn in someone who allegedly confessed to them?

EF did not “allegedly” confess to his sister MJ. He did confess to her. She passed a polygraph regardless of her mental health which may have been medicated correctly as she handled herself well. I do not believe MJ made up a story to collect $325,000! She wanted to inform LE of her brother’s statements and that he was there with two other men. If I had a developmentally challenged brother that came to me and told me what EF told MJ, I too would be pursuing LE to listen to me as there are two other people, likely murderers, still out there! Are you telling me if you were in that situation you would not do the same thing, just because there was a sizeable reward and “someone” might accuse you of only wanting the reward? Wouldn’t you care less about what people think of you and more about the danger that still exists? Not everyone is motivated by money. JMHO

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Hmm I recall not long ago here the discussion was that EF supposedly confessed to his sister almost immediately following the murders, so soon after that it was questionable if it was reported in the news yet.

That is not the way I remember it, perhaps someone has a quick link. I don't always have to be right so I'm good with what you say IF you will post the link please. Believe it or not, facts matter to me.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

He did the next morning and the sister called in right away to report but couldn’t LE to call her back so she eventually had to contact her friend at Homeland Security to help her get in contact with Ferency, I think it was.

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf - ANDREW J. BALDWIN

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Thanks granny.

 

[grannygates]

Thanks granny.

The second sister he confessed to was later like you said, so we are both right

(It just took a long time to finally connect to LE to submit the tip)

 

[ClearAhead]

DBM, redundant.

 

[susiQ]

Hmm I recall not long ago here the discussion was that EF supposedly confessed to his sister almost immediately following the murders, so soon after that it was questionable if it was reported in the news yet.

Yes, he did, to his sister MJ, on the 02/14/17. I believe @Caylee Advocate was referring to his confession to his other sister JM on 10/24/17 as stated in the FM pg 73 (footnotes).
@grannygates beat me to it!

 

[Caylee Advocate]

The second sister he confessed to was later like you said, so we are both right

(It just took a long time to finally connect to LE to submit the tip)

Well just so I am a little bit right, I'll take it. At least I can admit to being wrong if it's proven but don't try to blindside me with BS... no one likes that IMO.

 

[grannygates]

Yes, he did, to his sister MJ, on the 02/14/17. I believe @Caylee Advocate was referring to his confession to his other sister JM on 10/24/17 as stated in the FM pg 73 (footnotes).
@grannygates beat me to it!

Thank you for the dates!!

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Yes, he did, to his sister MJ, on the 02/14/17. I believe @Caylee Advocate was referring to his confession to his other sister JM on 10/24/17 as stated in the FM pg 73 (footnotes).
@grannygates beat me to it!

You girls amaze me with your quickness in finding documents. Thank you both so much. You are correct in what I was referring to. I had forgotten the confession to the first sister, in hindsight I wonder if the call to LE on the 14th had been returned to her, would it have made a difference?