Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #191

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There are also some cases where they overlooked the guilty man, who was right there in plain sight. Sometimes wives and mothers lie for the alibis, and police will believe them. So the possible egregious error can work both ways.

Investigating crimes is not easy. Sometimes there is bad luck or stupid mistakes and things can go sideways. A lot of bad things happened at the beginning of this case but I do believe they finally found their man. IMO
Sure the errors can be in either direction. That’s why I hope for a very good system of checks and balances / evidence and challenges. I want everyone on the jury to feel confident of the end result in either direction. I wouldn’t want to find out down the road they convicted the wrong man or failed to convict the right man.
 
While I agree that if they all gave exactly the same details it could spur on folks who think the girls colluded to tell some kind of lie (still haven't seen any kind of proof that is what anyone is alleging), I don't think all the differing descriptions will be "perceived positively." (IMO JMO MOO)

It's going to be a problem for the State.

IMO MOO

No, it won’t be because RA also admits he saw them because the timeline matches up and there is enough over-lapping similarities. He also places him on the bridge and people naturally realise that, in a split moment, you are not going to remember every single detail about somebody.

It's not like the girls realised they were witnessing the man on his way to commit a horrific crime that would shock the world.

I haven’t read the Franks in awhile as my
Eyes bleed from the twisting of facts have the Defence denied he Saw the juvenile girls?

IMHO
 
I believe he was (maybe still is) a conservation officer if I am not mistaken, so assume his work might take him to the Delphi area. But that is only an assumption on my part. also public records w IN DNR show him being given an award for something in 2007 and he was then stationed in district 3 which would include the Delphi area I believe.

The statement RA gave to DD in 2017 very early on in the case took place in a parking lot outside a local grocery, I am only assuming that took place in Delphi. I don't even think he was working the girls' case per se. He may have been pressed into assisting with LE in looking for witnesses in those early days but don't think he was actually part of the investigation.

from an article in 2022
Baldwin and Rozzi write that Allen gave a voluntary statement in February of 2017 to, “a Conservation Officer outside of the local grocery store,” detailing his presence on the Monon High Bridge the day Libby German and Abby Williams were murdered, that Allen was never contacted again by police . . .
https://fox59.com/indiana-news/defense-and-law-enforcement-spar-over-delphi-murders-investigation/

I think DD thought it was a big nothing, wrote up some notes, turned them over to the actual investigators and went on his merry way, never giving it another thought.

all of the above is JMO
IIRC, the CVS is right there by the grocery too?
 
I hope when the time comes for the trail witnesses to be questioned again about their recall of 2/13/17, that we look to the defense’s own snarky viewpoint on recollection and memory of events.

From FM 1.0 pg 95

At his June 20, 2018, interview, Elvis Fields told Ferency and Murphy that he (Elvis) remembered being at home in Rushville 492 days earlier on February 13, 2017. It is quite a remarkable feat for someone with Elvis’s mental capacity to remember a specific day 492 days earlier. Some people, like actress Marilu Henner, are blessed with something called
“autobiographical memory” which allows that person to remember specific days in their lives even years and years later.


 
I think it’s a bigger leap to assume that all of the differing descriptions were of the same man. IMO MOO

ETA: That’s just how I would feel and think as a juror.
I don’t think you can count the differences of opinion among a group of girls who are by all accounts looking at one man as evidence that two or more men were present. Three or four girls agree on place, time, and number of men (one) for a single encounter. Details of the encounter and his clothing do NOT match from one girl to the next, which points up why eyewitness testimony isn’t the gold standard of evidence in the first place. But that’s what you’re basing your “reasonable doubt” upon.

Nobody saw two men in the critical there and then. Even RA didn’t see his posited doppelgänger, an understandable omission if he didn’t yet know he’d been filmed when he talked to DD. You only need one man to account for all the sightings if that one man is RA.
 
I hope when the time comes for the trail witnesses to be questioned again about their recall of 2/13/17, that we look to the defense’s own snarky viewpoint on recollection and memory of events.

From FM 1.0 pg 95

At his June 20, 2018, interview, Elvis Fields told Ferency and Murphy that he (Elvis) remembered being at home in Rushville 492 days earlier on February 13, 2017. It is quite a remarkable feat for someone with Elvis’s mental capacity to remember a specific day 492 days earlier. Some people, like actress Marilu Henner, are blessed with something called
“autobiographical memory” which allows that person to remember specific days in their lives even years and years later.


It would be unusual if someone was capable of recalling exactly where they were on a specific day over a year and a half beforehand on a day that held no significance to your life, where nothing happened and you were just chilling at your house. I get the snark because why would anyone ever believe that. MOO

The people who were present on the trails and think they saw the murderer would recall that they were on the trails and think they possibly saw the murderer. Its remembering the small descriptive details that is challenging and that’s why it’s so strange to form an entire murder timeline over contradictory witnesses statements.

IMO The eyewitnesses statements not matching wouldn’t be such a big deal if they weren’t being used to form the entire case.

MOO
 
It would be unusual if someone was capable of recalling exactly where they were on a specific day over a year and a half beforehand on a day that held no significance to your life, where nothing happened and you were just chilling at your house. I get the snark because why would anyone ever believe that. MOO

The people who were present on the trails and think they saw the murderer would recall that they were on the trails and think they possibly saw the murderer. Its remembering the small descriptive details that is challenging and that’s why it’s so strange to form an entire murder timeline over contradictory witnesses statements.

IMO The eyewitnesses statements not matching wouldn’t be such a big deal if they weren’t being used to form the entire case.

MOO


Well it’s a good thing it doesn’t.
 
Yeah I am really not sure how the sketches went from older man to younger guy with puffy hair??? If BG was NOT described as wearing the hat in the old Bg sketch then why did it appear in the sketch? If he WAS described in such a hat, why is it missing from the second sketch? Do jurors just have to assume he removed it or added this in between sightings?
Have we seen a picture of him in 2017? His hairline is impressive for a 50 something yr old right now. I think 7 yrs ago he absolutely could have had plenty of hair. Remember the statement about "may appear younger than his true age?" From afar, his 5'4 or 5'5 height and a full head of hair (if seen during a time that he had removed his hat) could give the impression of a much younger man, like the second sketch.
 
No, it won’t be because RA also admits he saw them because the timeline matches up and there is enough over-lapping similarities. He also places him on the bridge and people naturally realise that, in a split moment, you are not going to remember every single detail about somebody.

It's not like the girls realised they were witnessing the man on his way to commit a horrific crime that would shock the world.

I haven’t read the Franks in awhile as my
Eyes bleed from the twisting of facts have the Defence denied he Saw the juvenile girls?

IMHO
Just trying to untwist my brain as there is a lot to keep track of! RA saw 3 minors right? But there were 4 in the group who took the photo of the bench? For some reason, only 3 gave statements to police so perhaps one was too young? Did RA see that 4th kid? Or did he only see three kids?

If those kids saw BG - where were they quite when they noticed him? Like in terms of distance, where were they? Was he walking up to the bridge or? Which document is this described in? Maybe I need to go re-read it all.
 
IIRC, the CVS is right there by the grocery too?
But what we’re NOT told is why did DD meet with RA to get the statement in the first place? Why did police not seem interested in talking to a guy who WAS AT THE DAMN BRIDGE at the right time?? Who decided this was smart? Let’s just completely minimize some guy who says he was at the bridge and never talk to him ourselves????

So how did this happen? Who decided that DD should meet with RA? Like did he just randomly go there to canvas employees of the plaza at work? Did he happen across RA - just by asking, “hey was anyone at the bridge? Did anyone see / hear anything?” And then RA was like “well, yeah, I was there” so now they go out to chat????

OR did RA call LE and they sent DD to meet him?? If RA is guilty, this is egregious - this could have been solved so much sooner and given the family some peace so may years ago!!
 
I hope when the time comes for the trail witnesses to be questioned again about their recall of 2/13/17, that we look to the defense’s own snarky viewpoint on recollection and memory of events.

From FM 1.0 pg 95

At his June 20, 2018, interview, Elvis Fields told Ferency and Murphy that he (Elvis) remembered being at home in Rushville 492 days earlier on February 13, 2017. It is quite a remarkable feat for someone with Elvis’s mental capacity to remember a specific day 492 days earlier. Some people, like actress Marilu Henner, are blessed with something called
“autobiographical memory” which allows that person to remember specific days in their lives even years and years later.


It is odd that EF did remember where he was on that specific day. I wonder what his recall is for other days that week?
 
...

He could have easily known about the 2 girls going missing from the Bridge park on the night of the 13th. There were very likely many announcements and news reports about it and asking for help the next morning to search. Their names and pictures would have been on the local news. IMO

...
IMO, sure he heard about it.

We were discussing the girls here (and I was in Atlantic Canada) the morning of the 14th of February before they had even been found. I followed the link here to watch the helicopter covering the search live from the air. It was on the scanners, the radios etc.

Link to the very first post on Abby and Libby here on the site:

 
Do you ever wonder why DD did not enter RA's cell number into the written interview he took?
Had he done that, RA could have been easily tracked.
MOO
I often wonder why RA chose to approach a random CO about a major crime that had occured to give his statement instead of contacting the investigating LE after the girls were found murdered despite their publication of numbers to reach them and where they were located right in his small hometown etc.

Hiding in plain sight.
 
I don’t think you can count the differences of opinion among a group of girls who are by all accounts looking at one man as evidence that two or more men were present. Three or four girls agree on place, time, and number of men (one) for a single encounter. Details of the encounter and his clothing do NOT match from one girl to the next, which points up why eyewitness testimony isn’t the gold standard of evidence in the first place. But that’s what you’re basing your “reasonable doubt” upon.

Nobody saw two men in the critical there and then. Even RA didn’t see his posited doppelgänger, an understandable omission if he didn’t yet know he’d been filmed when he talked to DD. You only need one man to account for all the sightings if that one man is RA.
Q: can a juror not base reasonable doubt on whatever stands out to them as well, reasonably doubtful?

So if the witnesses have described BG differently, which they have (some say puffy hair, some say not), some say blue jacket, one says tan and so on and so forth…. (Franks motions)…. Then can they not just say not guilty based on this and this alone? I imagine they’ll have a lot of discussions about the merits of this or that testimony/ evidence. Given how we bicker amongst ourselves here about these very same topics, I could easily see a jury ending up hung or coming back not guilty. At this point, imo, there just is something missing that would make me get off the fence to the guilty side.

I wonder if what is missing is something the State hasn’t revealed yet? Something from the search warrant? If they don’t have a lot more, I wonder if what they do have is enough to get the conviction. I don’t know how to do a formal poll here, so I’m wondering, if we can reasonably do this:

Cast your votes: based only what is known so far -
GUILTY
NOT GUILTY
?

ME: NOT GUILTY BARD. Yet.
 
Thank you so much Spartygirl, you are most kind!

I am trying to be hopeful for a timely and just resolution that will bring some kind of closure to the families and friends, but exactly, the Karen R trial does worry me.

Karen Read is a different trial, not RAs. I don't understand why it keeps getting brought up in here.

Different players all together, different jurisdictions and, IIRC, some actual evidence poitning to nefarious LE actions etc.

I've yet to see anything of the sort here in this case. Rather in this case, everyone and everybody is apparently conspiring ... without a shred of evidence to back up these grand isinuations and allegations.

Yet, we have seen the receipts on the Defence's part to manipulate of obfusgate the actual evidence and events of Feb 13th.
 

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