Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #192

[mrjitty]

I am still catching up but oh my gosh. We've gone from "Hail Odin" to "Hail Lake"? At this point it's actual reading of patterns in clouds. IMO.

Just shows how much of the Franks was wild speculation IMO.

There never was any F, but of course the jury will never know they recanted on that.

MOO

 

[TTF14]

The hearing took place on 1 August.

So then you wait 2 weeks to file all the arguments you should have made at the hearing?

I just don't see this as being intended for the Judge. For all we know the Judge already authored her opinion. I don't see an extra credit assignment handed in 2 weeks late getting much traction.

MOO

The third day of hearings went late into the night. They ran out of time!

This was a long document. I'm not surprised it took this long to prepare it.

IMO MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Yes it seems defense ran out of time. So they decided to file this in front of the status hearing next week.
Jmo

But then why did they file it 2 weeks later? The Judge could have issued her opinion anytime after the hearing and then their negligence would have meant the filing came too late.

MOO

 

[sunshineray]

This is the snip about liking a Facebook photo of someone in their group using human blood to paint a rune on a tree. They put it all out there on Facebook.

View attachment 524926

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

And what does this have to do specifically with RA and the murders of Abby and Libby?

From Franks 1:
View attachment 524902
The marking on the tree was an Ansuz rune and the message at the scene was “Hail Odin”. BH had posted a “creepy self-drawn illustration” with this rune, and is an example of “one of the many Easter eggs [BH] left behind on his Facebook page on multiple posts.”

From the defense’s response to the state’s motion in limine that was filed today:
View attachment 524904
The Ansuz rune is now a Laguz rune. We no longer have “Hail Odin” or the Easter eggs on BH’s Facebook page. We don’t have a creepy drawing that he posted on Facebook with the same symbol as the tree.

Very odd…

JMO

Well since being spanked in court, even by their own witnesses, the DT has obviously decided to PIVOT...what's it now, an upside down L, as described by the blood expert is now a Laguz rune on the tree? Okay dokay. Maybe the dots of Libby's blood splatter from her slit throat are some sort of Laguz symbol also? Do the killers still use a paintbrush or is that old news before the PIVOT?

 

[TTF14]

In RA's case they had him putting himself at the scene, at the time. The 4 men, never able to be put there because alibis checked out. BIG difference. MO

It's why the timeline is so key in this case. We go round and round about this issue because we haven't seen clear, definitive proof, with digital evidence (phone records), of the girls movements that day in order to clearly see a timeline that makes sense.

I hope the State intends to make this VERY clear to the jurors, especially if the third party stuff is allowed in.

IMO MOO

 

[pseudo_hum]

But then why did they file it 2 weeks later? The Judge could have issued her opinion anytime after the hearing and then their negligence would have meant the filing came too late.

MOO

IMO, the defence is positioning an appeal for RA, ineffective council.

 

[TTF14]

But then why did they file it 2 weeks later? The Judge could have issued her opinion anytime after the hearing and then their negligence would have meant the filing came too late.

MOO

Well, that's a hypothetical.

Maybe they have some information we don't, like that she's not going to issue a ruling until next Friday's hearing.

IMO MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

The hearing took place on 1 August.

So then you wait 2 weeks to file all the arguments you should have made at the hearing?

I just don't see this as being intended for the Judge. For all we know the Judge already authored her opinion. I don't see an extra credit assignment handed in 2 weeks late getting much traction.

MOO

Yes, I was in agreement with you.

 

[sunshineray]

It's why the timeline is so key in this case. We go round and round about this issue because we haven't seen clear, definitive proof, with digital evidence (phone records), of the girls movements that day in order to clearly see a timeline that makes sense.

I hope the State intends to make this VERY clear to the jurors, especially if the third party stuff is allowed in.

IMO MOO

Why would we know any of the particulars yet, the trial hasn't started. Hoping it will in October.

 

[m00c0w]

I disagree.

I'm a believer in citations, page numbers, minute marks and exhibitions. We give three of those things here frequently.

Is this in reference to suppositions, but not solid evidence?

Saying that someone posted an image on Facebook, for instance, and citing that fact does not actually implicate them in a crime. It does not mean they had the means or opportunity to commit the crime. Saying someone said that someone said someone else told them (person 2) they committed a crime, and citing that deposition, does not implicate that second person in the crime and is hearsay testimony about the third person. That also does not provide reasonable means or opportunity. The list of cited facts goes on in this pattern.

Yes, they have a lot of facts. Yes, they cite those facts. Yes, they are probably true. The issue is those facts don’t reasonably put the individuals in question at or near the crime scene with an opportunity to have committed the murder. Nor do they address key components of the state’s case, like who BG is.

The defense states contradictory things regarding BH that I’ve discussed what is now way upthread. In short, they seem to accept his work alibi which means he can’t be BG, but state he has third party culpability because he looks like BG. However, it would be impossible for him to be BG if the alibi is accepted as true. The other individual mentioned is a foot taller than RA, so probably not him. They don’t really address this one basic premise, and instead try to shift the timeline to the girls being murdered at 4:33am without an explanation for the man on the bridge with a gun that ostensibly kidnapped the girls between 1:30 to 2:30 or so.

The issue with that line of defense is that if they can’t provide a solid defense against RA being the guy on the bridge, felony murder is still on the table. Which is also why I don’t quite understand the handwringing by some commentators about the case being left open and investigators saying they think RA may have had help. Even if he had help, that doesn’t make him less culpable. The state does not have to charge all individuals at once with a crime. In fact, sometimes people are charged and tried and decide to cooperate against their co-conspirators for leniency in sentencing, which results in future charges against those co-conspirators. None of this precludes RA from being the guy on the bridge that kidnapped the girls, and led them down the hill to their ultimate demise.

Unless, of course, the claim becomes “okay, RA kidnapped them but he didn’t have anything to do with their murder, honest!”

All my opinion.

 

[TTF14]

They spent 5 weeks scouring the Wabash River looking for a phone and a knife from KKs confession after they had already confirmed that both KK and TK were at home, actively using their phones all day. With that, they showed that they will still go to great lengths to investigate some people, even if those people have the strongest alibi we have seen in this case to date.

Excellent point.

This tells me that they aren't so locked in to original timeline as they once were.

April 2019 change in direction? Maybe.

IMO MOO

 

[TTF14]

Why would we know any of the particulars yet, the trial hasn't started. Hoping it will in October.

We wouldn't, and I didn't make any claim that we should. In fact, that's exactly why I mentioned the jurors.

IMO MOO

 

[SouthEnd]

I caught up. The one thing I wanted to note: I don't think anyone disagrees that the Odinist theory started from the LE.

All of the "look at this photo of a blot" and "dead chicken" situations were known to the LE and the reason they looked into the Odinists to begin with. IMO and going from TC's interviews.

Realistically, they'd be the perfect target for LE. They have some history with the law, some of the names that keep getting thrown out were known trouble makers.

The fact that LE found no evidence of them being in the location and *did not try to manufacture* any evidence should give us more confidence in the fact that the system works in this case, at least.

I don't see how repeating the clues that the LE used in order to first investigate that group as a "gotcha" moment would serve to sway the Judge. But that's MOO.

I can't wait to see what the actual evidence is come October. I'm expecting nothing solid until then, only motions and speculations. MOO

 

[TTF14]

He could easily demonstrate this before a jury. I don’t think it will be a problem. And far more impactful.

JMO

I strongly disagree! He'd have to get more of his own blood, and bring a tree and leaves into the courtroom. They can't even fit cameras in there, per JG, so I doubt an expert slinging his own blood around would fly.

IMO

 

[ClearAhead]

I feel once more like this might I have been written more for the fan base than the Judge.

We just had a evidential hearing where they had their chance to make the case for a BH+PW theory. This motion simply confirms that it's just fanfic that lacks even one single piece of evidence to connect the 2 men with the crime

MOO

I agree. The D didn’t make their case during the 3day hearings and as a result the media focused on points the P presented including the D’s failure to place the alternate POIs at the crime scene. Well that will never do…….so then comes more fanfic to rev it up a notch. It’s so obvious. MOO

 

[TTF14]

I caught up. The one thing I wanted to note: I don't think anyone disagrees that the Odinist theory started from the LE.

Well, I think it started with whoever tipped BH in within the first few days, if we want to get technical. But if you mean it started with LE and not the defense team, yes.

IMO MOO

(rsbm)

 

[SouthEnd]

PS: it was discussed, a lot, throughout the investigation, that the LE having multiple POI would make the trial harder, once an arrest was made. What is happening now was speculated many times on podcasts and reddit, all but back then it was "the DT will use RL and KAK to create reasonable doubt"

Other LE agencies could have gotten cold feet and not pursued leads until they got a smoking gun, to avoid being called out for the above. The fact that they pursued so many avenues makes me personally think that they are less likely to manufacture evidence against an individual since they have been shown to not have terrible tunnel vision.

All MOO

 

[m00c0w]

Excellent point.

This tells me that they aren't so locked in to original timeline as they once were.

April 2019 change in direction? Maybe.

IMO MOO

They had an obligation to investigate the confession. If they didn’t, a future suspect could claim they did not fully investigate and that the murder weapon is actually at the bottom of the Wabash. They have removed that option from the table. It was 100% necessary without the theory of the crime having changed.

All my opinion.

 

[SouthEnd]

They had an obligation to investigate the confession. If they didn’t, a future suspect could claim they did not fully investigate and that the murder weapon is actually at the bottom of the Wabash. They have removed that option from the table. It was 100% necessary without the theory of the crime having changed.

All my opinion.

100% agreed, I'm satisfied that the LE followed every possible avenue so that it can't be argued that they were ignoring tips/confessions. MOO

 

[TTF14]

100% agreed, I'm satisfied that the LE followed every possible avenue so that it can't be argued that they were ignoring tips/confessions. MOO

Like they did with EF.

IMO