Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #192

[justtrish]

I think you may be missing the point of the defenses argument and really overstating the evidence that was used to arrest RA.

The issue in this case is that these other people have known connections to the victims and the crime scene and they were not completely investigated so we do not know what their involvement is. It could be nothing, it could be something. But we don’t know so how can we be confident in the investigation into RA with so many loose ends and unknowns.

WE might not know, but the police I am confident do. WE don't need to know anything before a trial. What the state has on other individuals really has zero to do with what the state has on RA. This trial is not about everyone else that was tipped in to LE. It's about RA. This is where I get annoyed with the defense just brining anything and everything in as a but what about this... okay but what about your own client who there is evidence against. Even if every other person the defense throws in this is somehow involved, it doesn't also mean their very client RA also isn't involved. If he is, then he's guilty even if others also are involved. I don't believe this to be the case, but even if it is, RA can still be BG and be guilty of taking the girls off the bridge and no matter what else happened after that he is guilty of the crime he's charged with. Nothing the defense is throwing out there makes their client innocent of what the state has charged him with.

 

[m00c0w]

Thanks for the lengthy reply. Since I haven't seen any "solid evidence" from either side, I'll have to go with suppositions.

Almost every document the defense team files gets blown off as (lies, ... pick a description). So, while everything is not solid evidence, IMO many of the statements carry weight due to the citations.

I guess that was more of my point. Things can be true but also irrelevant. Relevancy is the main issue I see with the latest filing. They list a lot of facts, but nothing substantive that actually provides the required nexus to the crime.

I just want it to be clear that I don’t think the defense is necessarily lying, just that they’re not hitting the requisite threshold. It’s a lot of fluff and little substance towards their actual goal.

All my opinion.

 

[susiQ]

Again, you cannot state that your probable cause that someone committed a crime is that you don’t know where they were. That’s just not a thing. Ever. UC did not have an obligation to investigate, because that’s exactly what the task force was doing. Freeing up manpower for UC to conduct other investigatory routes. Ultimately, the task force apparently could not come up with anything that actually connected EF to the murders. Otherwise, we would see this smoking gun evidence from the defense. Instead, we have hearsay testimony, a white truck, and a lack of knowledge about whereabouts. If they were granted a search warrant based on that info, it would get suppressed so fast…

All my opinion.

He confessed to his sister. Commented if his spit was found on Abby, he could explain. Made her “horns” because she was a troublemaker and attempted to give MJ a blue jacket. For goodness sake, he admitted to being on a bridge with two other guys and two girls were killed the day after the murders. He has a “brother” now. Initiation ritual. Likely Vinlander as FrM would not initiate a cognitively impaired man. Frankly, that was enough. There’s a reason JH was angry with Murphy. JH was hoping that report would never see the light of day. Reflects badly on those that would not support further investigation into these men. The cheese stinks and it’s not in Denmark. IMO.

 

[m00c0w]

He confessed to his sister. Commented if his spit was found on Abby, he could explain. Made her “horns” because she was a troublemaker and attempted to give MJ a blue jacket. For goodness sake, he admitted to being on a bridge with two other guys and two girls were killed the day after the murders. He has a “brother” now. Initiation ritual. Likely Vinlander as FrM would not initiate a cognitively impaired man. Frankly, that was enough. There’s a reason JH was angry with Murphy. JH was hoping that report would never see the light of day. Reflects badly on those that would not support further investigation into these men. The cheese stinks and it’s not in Denmark. IMO.

90% of this is hearsay. You can't use hearsay to obtain a search warrant (as it would have to be included in the affidavit), per evidentiary rule 802 in Indiana. You need actual, solid evidence. Not a bunch of he said, she said. If the task force could provide evidence beyond this, the defense has certainly not mentioned it that I'm aware of.

Indiana Rules of Evidence

JMO

 

[Salah11]

He confessed to his sister. Commented if his spit was found on Abby, he could explain. Made her “horns” because she was a troublemaker and attempted to give MJ a blue jacket. For goodness sake, he admitted to being on a bridge with two other guys and two girls were killed the day after the murders. He has a “brother” now. Initiation ritual. Likely Vinlander as FrM would not initiate a cognitively impaired man. Frankly, that was enough. There’s a reason JH was angry with Murphy. JH was hoping that report would never see the light of day. Reflects badly on those that would not support further investigation into these men. The cheese stinks and it’s not in Denmark. IMO.

How do we know that his sister simply isn’t playing games?

If he can not be placed in Delphi then for all anybody knows she made up all this rubbish to get attention. What makes her credible?

RA can be placed on a bridge moments before the girls crossed according to the PCA.

 

[ClearAhead]

He confessed to his sister. Commented if his spit was found on Abby, he could explain. Made her “horns” because she was a troublemaker and attempted to give MJ a blue jacket. For goodness sake, he admitted to being on a bridge with two other guys and two girls were killed the day after the murders. He has a “brother” now. Initiation ritual. Likely Vinlander as FrM would not initiate a cognitively impaired man. Frankly, that was enough. There’s a reason JH was angry with Murphy. JH was hoping that report would never see the light of day. Reflects badly on those that would not support further investigation into these men. The cheese stinks and it’s not in Denmark. IMO.

I can’t help but notice the emphasis is on what EF allegedly told his sister since it supports the theory of the D regarding his involvement. It’s been stated countless times as if its supposed to prove something. It’s only hearsay, he said - she said.

Nothing specific has been revealed about Murphy’s interview with EF, when he came to believe he was being played since it does not support the D theory. He’d make a better prosecution witness than testifying for the defense. Who have they got left?

 

[Trebor5591]

Where would some random person get a bullet that had been cycled through his gun?

Possibly at a gun range. Not saying this happened but that is a possibility.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I guess that was more of my point. Things can be true but also irrelevant. Relevancy is the main issue I see with the latest filing. They list a lot of facts, but nothing substantive that actually provides the required nexus to the crime.

I just want it to be clear that I don’t think the defense is necessarily lying, just that they’re not hitting the requisite threshold. It’s a lot of fluff and little substance towards their actual goal.

All my opinion.

Thank you for your reply. What does it mean when you add "necessarily" before "lying?"

I have to keep this simple because I obviously do not have the level of legal expertise that you have. Isn't this about just getting the evidence of alternative theories admitted? It seems like they have proven there was evidence of alternate theories and 3rd party perps.

MEMORANDUM OF LAW IN SUPPORT OF ADMISSION OF EVIDENCE OF ALTERNATIVE THEORIES OF THE CRIME AND THIRD-PARTY PERPETRATORS

 

[m00c0w]

Just thinking out loud - if the goal, as I've seen claimed, was for TL to garner support so he could get elected... or to somehow not look silly for having wasted time on the Wabash search... why go after RA of all people? Why not go after the cult of Odinists that all of this evidence apparently exists for? Wouldn't it be way more sensational that he dismantled this blood cult that was sacrificing children in dark rituals in their own Carroll County woods?

Additionally, if the claim is that UC was covering up for the Odinists for some strange reason, why would they have even allowed the investigations to begin with? Why did they bring BH in to interview him within days of the murder if their goal was to not do anything with the Odinists? Why even introduce him to begin with and not just "misfile" tips mentioning him?

It seems way more likely to me that the Odinism theory just fell flat after being given a moderate amount of scrutiny, so they had to look for other suspects. I can believe that way more than most law enforcement entities involved with this bending over backwards to cover up for the Odinists and implicate a CVS employee.

All my opinion.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

But then why did they file it 2 weeks later? The Judge could have issued her opinion anytime after the hearing and then their negligence would have meant the filing came too late.

MOO

If I want to give them the benefit of the doubt then I would say it’s because they wanted to get extra information in before the status hearing because they ran out of time the last day of the hearings. Perhaps the judge even agreed to this supplemental motion instead of extending hearings by a day. The unfortunate thing is here they can just speculate all they want without the benefit of cross examination. ( in which their “expert” did not hold well).
If I want to look more at their general pattern of behavior I would say this was just filed to bring their side into public view. They ordered the transcripts and cherry picked from them to present another diabolically creative motion.
Jmo

 

[Salah11]

I have said the same thing, Moocow. If you were legitimately going to frame somebody, you would pick an unsympathetic character like KK who nobody would bat an eyelid at. Nobody is going to lose any sleep if he is locked up over these crimes. But they didn't, as he was innocent of this crime. They have the evidence that suggests that RA is their man.

IMHO

 

[ClearAhead]

If I want to give them the benefit of the doubt then I would say it’s because they wanted to get extra information in before the status hearing because they ran out of time the last day of the hearings. Perhaps the judge even agreed to this supplemental motion instead of extending hearings by a day. The unfortunate thing is here they can just speculate all they want without the benefit of cross examination. ( in which their “expert” did not hold well).
If I want to look more at their general pattern of behavior I would say this was just filed to bring their side into public view. They ordered the transcripts and cherry picked from them to present another diabolically creative motion.
Jmo

Yes I think the D didn’t expect to be upstaged by McLeland. It was a very effective strategy to ask each defense witness at the end of their testimony if they could place the POI at the crime scene at the time of the crime and one after another, each responded NO.

The D got their hearing and yet here they are still filing supplementary motions in an attempt to rectify the results, as you suggest without the benefit of cross examination. A strategy driven by desperation, just like the FMs it’s totally one-sided. Leaves me to believe those confessions by RA must really be self-incriminating, nothing less scandalous and sensationalistic than evil Odinists has any chance of offsetting that.

 

[justtrish]

Possibly at a gun range. Not saying this happened but that is a possibility.

But who would know that RA talked to DD and said he was there that day on the bridge and all that wearing the clothing matching BG? The person taking a random bullet from the gun range would have to then know about that interview and the misfiled report from it in order to place it at the scene and try to frame this guy.

Someone didn't just take a random bullet, they would have to specifically pick RA's bullet from the range AND know that at some point in the future RA was going to be walking on the trail the same day 2 girls are murdered.

 

[FrostedGlass]

They could have left at 1:35, sang to one song, rolled the windows down, and received the call at 1:38. They would still not arrive to the trailhead until 1:45. She sat there for 2-3 minutes talking and watching them walk to the trailhead and drove off. That doesn’t seem very outlandish and I don’t think a difference of 2-3 minutes is very substantial towards changing anything with the prosecution’s timeline.

MOO

BP stated that the girls left around 1:30, give or take a few. I understand that as meaning it could have been a little earlier or later that 1:30. My question is: "Why to we always argue for the later time?"

What if they left before 1:30? How would that change the timeline?

The fact is LE probably knows exactly where they were when the call came in, what time the call came in and what time it ended but they have chosen to use only the time on the HHS cam as arrival and departure.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

He confessed to his sister. Commented if his spit was found on Abby, he could explain. Made her “horns” because she was a troublemaker and attempted to give MJ a blue jacket. For goodness sake, he admitted to being on a bridge with two other guys and two girls were killed the day after the murders. He has a “brother” now. Initiation ritual. Likely Vinlander as FrM would not initiate a cognitively impaired man. Frankly, that was enough. There’s a reason JH was angry with Murphy. JH was hoping that report would never see the light of day. Reflects badly on those that would not support further investigation into these men. The cheese stinks and it’s not in Denmark. IMO.

They were investigated thoroughly and they have alibis.
I’m sorry that does not meet your and the defense’s narrative.
Once they investigated, once it’s determined each has an alibi, what exactly would you have LE do? At what point is it OK for an investigation to end, because I myself think, if someone presented an alibi that had been confirmed, it’s time to move on.
Imagine if RA had an alibi, which he doesn’t, but imagine he did. LE confirmed it, but they continued to investigate him. Constantly questioning his family and friends, calling him back in for questioning, keeping eyes on him. They would be accused of tunnel vision and harassment.
So when is it OK to stop investigating someone whose name is not Richard Allen in your opinion?
You really can’t have it both ways.

My opinion

 

[TTF14]

But who would know that RA talked to DD and said he was there that day on the bridge and all that wearing the clothing matching BG? The person taking a random bullet from the gun range would have to then know about that interview and the misfiled report from it in order to place it at the scene and try to frame this guy.

Someone didn't just take a random bullet, they would have to specifically pick RA's bullet from the range AND know that at some point in the future RA was going to be walking on the trail the same day 2 girls are murdered.

At this point, we don't even know if this was actually RA's bullet.

 

[MiniMoo]

We're going on the word of one human (fallible like the rest of us) man, who was going by his interpretation and memory of what RA told him. And got his last name wrong (because, he's human and memories are fallible). That same man stood up on that stage within days of talking to RA face to face, saw the image of "BG" just like everyone else, and didn't say a thing about it being RA.

IMO MOO

Getting names and info wrong or incorrect isn't exactly ideal, but not being able to recognise someone after directly speaking to them face to face plus seeing a video that is potentially supposed to be that very same person is quite another.

How is it that 1+1 wasn't 2 to him when it came to:

1 The narrative exchange between himself and RA + 1 The video of BG on the bridge equating 2 RA=BG.

What happened I wonder for him to have missed it.

 

[Salah11]

At this point, we don't even know if this was actually RA's bullet.

Well the PCA claims it is and they know a lot more than any of us. IMO

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

 

[legalmomma]

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

08/15/2024

Memorandum/Brief Filed Memorandum of Law in Support of Admission of Evidence of Alternative Theories of the Crime Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 08/15/2024

https://www.scribd.com/document/759579708/Richard-Allen-Brief-in-Opposition-to-States-Motion-in-Limine

 

[tlcya]

For clarity, all of the details of the investigation haven’t been publicly released. In fact, zero reports have been released. What has been released is a carefully curated collection of paraphrased statements prepared by the defense. Not quite the same.

We don’t actually know much about the entirety of the investigation. Didn’t one of the investigators testify that no one in law enforcement believes this was a case of Odinist ritual sacrifice - something the defense has now stated outright in their latest motion (that they believe it was, in fact, a ritual sacrifice by Odinists)?

JMO

yes, I think that was Todd Click on MS podcast shortly after the first Frank's came out.

However, during an interview with The Murder Sheet on September 23, Click told hosts Aine Cane and Kevin Greenlee that he doesn't believe Abby and Libby were killed during a ritual sacrifice - and nor does anyone else in local law enforcement.

He accused the defense of "twisting facts for sensationalism."
Former Delphi cop thinks suspect is innocent but doesn't believe cult theory