Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[girlhasnoname]

Yes, the search was offically called of overnight. Didn't a lot of searchers continue searching though? I vaguely remember, some show, maybe on the Oxygen Network, where the local Fire Dept man saying he was called to bring in lights overnight? I think the Sheriff was also in that show and mentioned some continued searching through the night? Does that ring a bell with anyone?

My point would be the same as yours, what killer(s) would return to the scene of the abduction, that has people still actively searching it, to bring back either dead bodies or live victims to kill them there? That wouldn't make any sense to me. I also don't think the blood evidence would back up that scenario. AJMO

That is correct, the official search was called off but family members and many locals were still searching on their own with flashlights and car headlights according to WTHR 13News the following morning.

Seems pretty risky and stupid for the murderer to be out there trying to move around bodies, but we are talking about someone who viciously murdered Abby & Libby.

IMO

 

[mrjitty]

Agree, also considering the blood pooling for both Abby and Libby being where they were located as testified to by the State CSI/blood expert during the last hearings as reported by TMS Part 3.

JMO

Yes - they would have had to have been brought back alive and then murdered in the middle of the night.

Seems highly unlikely to me.

 

[iamshadow21]

Yes - they would have had to have been brought back alive and then murdered in the middle of the night.

Seems highly unlikely to me.

Brought back to exactly the spot the phone stopped moving many hours earlier, and one of the victims laid over the phone and killed... without the phone moving at all.

Not plausible.

MOO

 

[m00c0w]

They are going to question the TOD heavily at the trial IMO, the state is using the phones movements to create the TOD while there wasn’t one listed on the autopsy or medical examiner reports.

If they can bring reasonable doubt to the TOD they can create an alibi for RA and it would also break others alibis.

IMO

We don’t actually know this for a fact. What was said was apparently another carefully worded item by the defense. I believe there will be a timeframe the murders occurred within the autopsy report as this is fairly common versus a specific time. The defense‘s main pretrial strategy seems to be wordplay and misleading (but not entirely untrue) statements, as shown when comparing testimony to the Franks memos for instance.

All my opinion.

 

[mrjitty]

We don’t actually know this for a fact. What was said was apparently another carefully worded item by the defense. I believe there will be a timeframe the murders occurred within the autopsy report as this is fairly common versus a specific time. The defense‘s main pretrial strategy seems to be wordplay and misleading (but not entirely untrue) statements, as shown when comparing testimony to the Franks memos for instance.

All my opinion.

100% agree.

It seems likely the state case will estimate TOD from a number of circumstantial points, including medical IMO

 

[Tealgrove]

Yes, the search was offically called of overnight. Didn't a lot of searchers continue searching though? I vaguely remember, some show, maybe on the Oxygen Network, where the local Fire Dept man saying he was called to bring in lights overnight? I think the Sheriff was also in that show and mentioned some continued searching through the night? Does that ring a bell with anyone?

My point would be the same as yours, what killer(s) would return to the scene of the abduction, that has people still actively searching it, to bring back either dead bodies or live victims to kill them there? That wouldn't make any sense to me. I also don't think the blood evidence would back up that scenario. AJMO

Family and friends continued searching through the night.

I remember this distinctly. It might even had been Tobe Lazenby that made that remark.

Point being, the search may have officially stopped for the night but people were still there. It’s not like they all just packed it in and left.

I’m going to add MOO to this as after 7 years and getting close to 200 threads it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack to find a link to this.

 

[Salah11]

The blood all points to them dying at the scene. That kind of science doesn’t lie either.

If the defense try and move time of death it will fall flat on their face as it simply doesn’t add up with the evidence.

MOO

 

[Tealgrove]

The blood all points to them dying at the scene. That kind of science doesn’t lie either.

If the defense try and move time of death it will fall flat on their face as it simply doesn’t add up with the evidence.

MOO

Honestly, I think the Defence is well aware that their theory on TOD is pretty much hogwash and won’t fly at trial.

They need to come up with something I guess.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

The blood all points to them dying at the scene. That kind of science doesn’t lie either.

If the defense try and move time of death it will fall flat on their face as it simply doesn’t add up with the evidence.

MOO

I do wonder if we will end up with an absurdity where the defence claims variously that they were murdered elsewhere and blood drained, and brought back to the scene and murdered there - but the jury only ever hears about one of these conspiracies.

MOO

 

[sunshineray]

100% agree.

It seems likely the state case will estimate TOD from a number of circumstantial points, including medical IMO

And probably stomach contents too as the girls slept in and then had those banana pancakes that late morning.

 

[Tealgrove]

I’ve seen it mentioned several times here that TOD is not mentioned on the Autopsy Reports. Since the Autopsy Reports have not been released publicly I’m wondering where this is coming from.

Is there a link to this information or is this rumour?

TIA

 

[tlcya]

Crews searched for the missing teens into the night, but because of the dark, the search was slowed around midnight. Crews will regroup and continue their search efforts first thing in the morning.

MISSING: Two 13-year-old Carroll Co. girls

Two 13-year-old Carroll County girls are missing after they were dropped off to go hiking Monday afternoon.

www.wrtv.com

A search party comprised of local police, sheriff's deputies, firefighters and DNR officers was formed to canvass the area where the girls were last seen. At Tuesday's press conference, Riley said the search was "scaled back."

2 bodies found during search for teen girls

An hour after Delphi AssistantFire Chief Curtis Borden toldRTV6two missing teen girls from Carroll County were found, calling it "not good," authorities said at a press conference two bodies had been found in the area they went missing.

www.wrtv.com

February 14, 12 a.m.: The search for the two missing girls was scaled back around midnight because of the dark.

DELPHI TIMELINE: Disappearance and murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams

The mystery surrounding a double murder continues over a month after the bodies of Liberty German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, were found. </p><p><strong>MORE </strong>| <a…

www.wrtv.com

This is what I was able to pull about the searches the night of the 13th going into the 14th from the early articles by going back through thread one and MEDIA thread one. Those articles all use words like SLOWED and SCALED BACK.

 

[Vern]

100% agree.

It seems likely the state case will estimate TOD from a number of circumstantial points, including medical IMO

And well established sciene. Rigor Mortis.

Rigor mortis appears approximately 2 hours after death in the muscles of the face, progresses to the limbs over the next few hours, completing between 6 to 8 hours after death.[10] Rigor mortis then stays for another 12 hours (till 24 hours after death) and then disappears.

If the girls were not killed until 0433hrs on 14th February as some try to claim, then they would have been in full rigor until approx 24 hours later (0433hrs) on the 15th of February.

If the girls died the afternoon of the 13th February, they would have been coming out of Rigor shortly after they were found on the morning of the 14th ... just a couple of hours later versus the next morning.

Good thing that their remains were already in posession of the authorities and then Coroner Jordan Cree by then. Which was it? The answer to that question bolded in red is known.

RA is still on the bridge, the evidence we've seen testified to at this stage shows the girls were murdered at the scene they were found, and the Prosecution and the Defence both know darn well what day they died. It was, and will be proven to be that they were killed in the afternoon of 13th February IMO.

Justice for Abby & Libby. It's well past time.

Methods of Estimation of Time Since Death - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

 

[photographer4]

Since we have been talking about Cicero and analysis of blood at scene, which he viewed in photos and videos as he wasn’t at the actual crime scene at the time of the original investigation, I thought it may be interesting to learn about the history of this type of analysis. Here’s a link for those interested -

How the Dubious Science of Blood-Spatter Analysis Spread Like a Virus

From his basement in upstate New York, Herbert MacDonell launched modern bloodstain-pattern analysis, persuading judge after judge of its reliability. Then he trained hundreds of others. But what if they’re getting it wrong?

features.propublica.org

It’s about the pioneer of this type of investigation and how it was used towards quitting OJ etc. interesting read. I had no idea the pioneer of this subjective analysis began in his own basement.

 

[Vern]

Since we have been talking about Cicero and analysis of blood at scene, which he viewed in photos and videos as he wasn’t at the actual crime scene at the time of the original investigation, I thought it may be interesting to learn about the history of this type of analysis. Here’s a link for those interested -

How the Dubious Science of Blood-Spatter Analysis Spread Like a Virus

From his basement in upstate New York, Herbert MacDonell launched modern bloodstain-pattern analysis, persuading judge after judge of its reliability. Then he trained hundreds of others. But what if they’re getting it wrong?

features.propublica.org

It’s about the pioneer of this type of investigation and how it was used towards quitting OJ etc. interesting read. I had no idea the pioneer of this subjective analysis began in his own basement.

I'm pretty certain that it was a glove not fitting that aquitted OJ.

 

[Tealgrove]

I'm pretty certain that it was a glove not fitting that aquitted OJ.

If the glove doesn’t fit you have to acquit.

 

[tlcya]

Since we have been talking about Cicero and analysis of blood at scene, which he viewed in photos and videos as he wasn’t at the actual crime scene at the time of the original investigation, I thought it may be interesting to learn about the history of this type of analysis. Here’s a link for those interested -

How the Dubious Science of Blood-Spatter Analysis Spread Like a Virus

From his basement in upstate New York, Herbert MacDonell launched modern bloodstain-pattern analysis, persuading judge after judge of its reliability. Then he trained hundreds of others. But what if they’re getting it wrong?

features.propublica.org

It’s about the pioneer of this type of investigation and how it was used towards quitting OJ etc. interesting read. I had no idea the pioneer of this subjective analysis began in his own basement.

Think I will stick with articles and scholarly publications <modsnip> such as these.

Bloodstain pattern analysis - American Forensics

Bloodstain pattern analysis (BPA) involves the study and analysis of bloodstains. In forensic work, bloodstain pattern analysis can help investigators find out more about certain aspects of previous events that took place at a place that is known or suspected of being linked to a crime in a...

www.americanforensics.org

https://www.routledge.com/rsc/downloads/10.1201_b16445-11.pdf?srsltid=AfmBOopcsTx6CDXL47Ukv_8behmkU4Upufj5DH1pMgAiYqpOyk2-u0DN

 

[photographer4]

Here are some other articles that give pause when considering the reliabilty of bloodstain analysis from crime scenes:

Study Reports Error Rates for Bloodstain Pattern Analysis

Bloodstains are commonly encountered at scenes of violent crime. Forensic practitioners known as bloodstain pattern analysts seek to answer questions about the manner and sequence of events of a crime by examining the bloodstains left behind. Their methods are largely based on subjective expert...

nij.ojp.gov

The Pseudoscientific Practice of Blood Spatter Analysis How the Desire for Convictions Drives Flawed Prosecutions | Criminal Legal News

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0379073821001766

This line of research indicates some officers have only 40 hours of training and it made me wonder - what is Cicero’s training in the field exactly?

An interesting summary of the articles above:

“According to a study reported by the National Institute of Justice, no fewer than 11 percent of such conclusions were found to be incorrect. Those odds are not good; for every 10 instances of expert testimony, at least one will come to conclusions that are wrong. Equally startling is this: when any two analyst conclusions were compared, eight percent of the time the “expert” opinions did not agree. It seems possible, then, to find an analyst to support any number of conclusions relative to a single crime scene.” - How Reliable is Blood Spatter Analysis?

 

[photographer4]

I'm pretty certain that it was a glove not fitting that aquitted OJ.

The link does mention the glove and how the D used blood pattern guy to come up with the if it doesn’t fit you must acquit. lol.

 

[SouthEnd]

A lot of blood-splatter analysis has been proven false. Mostly, because of bad actors, like Deaver in the M Peterson case 'The Staircase': Who Is Duane Deaver and Where Is He Now?

Just because we see people using exaggerated statements/theatrics, like Henry Lee and his ketchup bubbles on the stand, it does not invalidate basic science like - blood bubbles that contain air, flow of blood, blood volume etc. This has been a topic argued in many cases in the early 2010s and mostly put to bed. As with all forensics, there are cases where the science has been misrepresented. That does not invalidate the whole field.

All MOO