Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #196

[iamshadow21]

Question about a cell phone’s movement history (in case anyone happens to know as I do not..):

If a phone connects to a tower until X time… is it possible, if it were placed into airplane mode - could it be removed and returned to the scene by someone and NOT show a change in location (eg; would it still record steps / show connected to the same tower the whole time?). Would it even show it had been put into / taken out of airplane mode if this had happened??

I am NOT saying it happened this way! I am asking if it is possible it could have happened and it not be recorded by the device? I hope my question makes sense. Thanks in advance - moo because no facts or links, just a question.

Well, steps recorded is to do with the accelerometer, which is a gyroscope, essentially. It's the component of the phone that knows when you turn your screen sideways, for example. It's got nothing to do with connection to a network. It's to do with the phone physically moving in space. You can cheat a step counter in a phone like you can in a smartwatch, by moving it around.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Well, steps recorded is to do with the accelerometer, which is a gyroscope, essentially. It's the component of the phone that knows when you turn your screen sideways, for example. It's got nothing to do with connection to a network. It's to do with the phone physically moving in space. You can cheat a step counter in a phone like you can in a smartwatch, by moving it around.

MOO

Also airplane mode does not stop your phone receiving GPS positioning info passively.

 

[sunshineray]

Plus, if RA's voice is the same voice that said "Guys, down the hill" on Libby's video of BG, that will be strong evidence. If it is not the same voice, then the Prosecution has a big problem, IMO.

Possibly, but a prison phone system record and an iPhone record are really not comparable tech, IMO

 

[sunshineray]

They don’t have the exact spot the phone stopped moving, from the cross examination of the phone forensic expert he stated that the apple health data could only account for how many steps were taken, it wasn’t gps based. The last known gps transmission was from the Snapchat video as Snapchat provided that to the phones file system.

So the steps could be any direction and we can see the defense start to hone in on this and the fact that once in a car the apple health would stop recording steps.

I’m not saying this is true obviously it’s just my opinion on something they are going to pursue in defense

Wasn't Libby's phone also pinging for awhile when DG, MP and BP were initially searching? That may help put a general location...so not offsite?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Question about a cell phone’s movement history (in case anyone happens to know as I do not..):

If a phone connects to a tower until X time… is it possible, if it were placed into airplane mode - could it be removed and returned to the scene by someone and NOT show a change in location (eg; would it still record steps / show connected to the same tower the whole time?). Would it even show it had been put into / taken out of airplane mode if this had happened??

I am NOT saying it happened this way! I am asking if it is possible it could have happened and it not be recorded by the device? I hope my question makes sense. Thanks in advance - moo because no facts or links, just a question.

Someone should check out how L's step counter worked in 2017.

I have an Android phone with two step-counter apps. Just because my phone stops counting my steps is absolutely no indication that I've stopped moving. I walk out to my vehicle, it counts my steps, I sit down in my vehicle, it stops counting my steps. Same thing for getting out and walking back up to my home. Between getting into and out of my vehicle, I could have traveled for hours and my counters don't move.

 

[sunshineray]

Now with these hearings there are finally some new facts out in this horrible case ... so Abby really was dressed in Libby's clothes when she was attacked?! That sounds so crazy but it's actually true per testimony? Is there any evidence or speculation about why / how this odd clothing switch happened?
Moo

Abby was dressed in her sports bra, bra and tank top. She had Libby's pants on and a sweatshirt (not sure if it was the borrowed one from Kelsei or Libby's sweatshirt). The blood evidence expert said Abby was most likely wearing the top half of her clothes when she was mortally wounded in the neck. Nothing was particularly said about the blood evidence on Libby's pants (that Abby was wearing). That's what I remember from Cicero's testimony.

3 Day Hearing - Google Drive

drive.google.com

 

[sunshineray]

It is that last sentence that troubles me the most about his mental health issues. And really, how many other “socially unacceptable behaviours” could they possibly have been talking about?

I'll take a guess...hitting, kicking, spitting? Things that can get you tazed?

 

[sunshineray]

Question about a cell phone’s movement history (in case anyone happens to know as I do not..):

If a phone connects to a tower until X time… is it possible, if it were placed into airplane mode - could it be removed and returned to the scene by someone and NOT show a change in location (eg; would it still record steps / show connected to the same tower the whole time?). Would it even show it had been put into / taken out of airplane mode if this had happened??

I am NOT saying it happened this way! I am asking if it is possible it could have happened and it not be recorded by the device? I hope my question makes sense. Thanks in advance - moo because no facts or links, just a question.

How would that phone get back to the scene under a victim's body?

 

[Salah11]

Someone should check out how L's step counter worked in 2017.

I have an Android phone with two step-counter apps. Just because my phone stops counting my steps is absolutely no indication that I've stopped moving. I walk out to my vehicle, it counts my steps, I sit down in my vehicle, it stops counting my steps. Same thing for getting out and walking back up to my home. Between getting into and out of my vehicle, I could have traveled for hours and my counters don't move.

I have never heard that before, as when I move on my iPhone it logs steps. That’s the whole point of the built-in motion sensor. I have had iPhones for over 10 years and never had issues with it’s sensors.

They will also have data that shows it was tracking her steps until she was fatally wounded. So, after RA tried to decapitate her, the movements ceased, which is a good indication that's when they died.

Moo

 

[mrjitty]

Someone should check out how L's step counter worked in 2017.

I have an Android phone with two step-counter apps. Just because my phone stops counting my steps is absolutely no indication that I've stopped moving. I walk out to my vehicle, it counts my steps, I sit down in my vehicle, it stops counting my steps. Same thing for getting out and walking back up to my home. Between getting into and out of my vehicle, I could have traveled for hours and my counters don't move.

I think they will look relative to the phone's own baseline. So for instance it arrives in a car, walks to the bridge etc. Then you see if it has any logged events like on/off, airplane mode on/off, screen wake up etc

Overall i think for this theory to be taken seriously the defence needs at least phone off/on logs.

Or perhaps a witness who could say oh yeah I looked in that location and there were no bodies.

 

[mrjitty]

I have never heard that before, as when I move on my iPhone it logs steps. That’s the whole point of the built-in motion sensor. I have had iPhones for over 10 years and never had issues with it’s sensors.

They will also have data that shows it was tracking her steps until she was fatally wounded. So, after RA tried to decapitate her, the movements ceased, which is a good indication that's when they died.

Moo

Right.

IMO its the overall circumstances that indicate both location and timing.

I think it was significant that attorney for RA asked the expert about messages received but never confronted the witness with any evidence about phone on/off logs - indeed the witness said the phone was always on in his opinion. So there is no actual evidence the phone was ever off. This is just a speculation the attorney offered to explain message receipts.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

How would that phone get back to the scene under a victim's body?

right?

And the murders would have to have been committed at the location, in the middle of the night, while people are searching, and no one saw or heard anything.

 

[Salah11]

right?

And the murders would have to have been committed at the location, in the middle of the night, while people are searching, and no one saw or heard anything.

Also, Libby’s body was dragged wasn’t she because she was a big girl so how did RA take her body from where he parked in the dead of night and let’s not forget he had to make two journeys. It simply doesn’t add up. Even if Libby was 6 stone, it would be completely moronic to take the bodies back to the original crime scene.

As he would have to do it all under the cover of night and make 2 journeys with loads of searchers out there.

Moo

 

[FrostedGlass]

I have never heard that before, as when I move on my iPhone it logs steps. That’s the whole point of the built-in motion sensor. I have had iPhones for over 10 years and never had issues with it’s sensors.

They will also have data that shows it was tracking her steps until she was fatally wounded. So, after RA tried to decapitate her, the movements ceased, which is a good indication that's when they died.

Moo

You quoted me. I don't understand what you have never heard before?
My comment?

I have an Android phone with two step-counter apps. Just because my phone stops counting my steps is absolutely no indication that I've stopped moving. I walk out to my vehicle, it counts my steps, I sit down in my vehicle, it stops counting my steps. Same thing for getting out and walking back up to my home. Between getting into and out of my vehicle, I could have traveled for hours and my counters don't move.

 

[mrjitty]

Also, Libby’s body was dragged wasn’t she because she was a big girl so how did RA take her body from where he parked in the dead of night and let’s not forget he had to make two journeys. It simply doesn’t add up. Even if Libby was 6 stone, it would be completely moronic to take the bodies back to the original crime scene.

As he would have to do it all under the cover of night and make 2 journeys with loads of searchers out there.

Moo

They had to be brought back alive due to the blood pooling at the scene. They were murdered where they were found IMO.

Going back to what @m00c0w posted upthread, this is an example of how they borderline lied* by omitting critical forensic info from the Franks in order to claim there was little blood so the girls were killed elsewhere and blood drained (!!).

But once you take into account the blood pooling, they must have been killed in situ - so then what would even be the point of taking them elsewhere?

As ever, this is just another baseless tower of speculation constructed on the sandy ground of the messages being received. All the other circumstantial evidence says they were killed where they were found

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

You quoted me. I don't understand what you have never heard before?
My comment?

The reason they don't count is relative lack of acceleration.

I've tested this by accident several times, by going for a run, forgetting to stop the activity, and then driving in the car. The GPS sees you move, so you record high velocity and distance, but with no steps.

There are other ways to show this. e.g when i walk, wheeling my bike with my watch hand (which also counts steps), i get no steps because my arm is fixed on the bike handles.

Ditto riding on bike, mostly does not generate steps.

IMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think they will look relative to the phone's own baseline. So for instance it arrives in a car, walks to the bridge etc. Then you see if it has any logged events like on/off, airplane mode on/off, screen wake up etc

Overall i think for this theory to be taken seriously the defence needs at least phone off/on logs.

Or perhaps a witness who could say oh yeah I looked in that location and there were no bodies.

I have no opinions one way or the other about any of the other stuff.
I was only talking about how step-tracking apps work.

Cecil said the only way her iPhone Apple app would track movement in a car is if the car hit a bump or something.

Okay. So it doesn’t show any movement of L.G.’s phone leaving from her
home to the trail that day when they were in a vehicle; correct?
A And you’re referring to the Apple Health data; correct?
Q Yes.
A No, it doesn’t.
Q Pardon?
A It does not, the Apple Health data does not.

3 Day Hearing - Google Drive

drive.google.com

 

[mrjitty]

All in all, unless the D has a witness who can say the bodies were not there, I don't take this one at all seriously. And if they did have that witness, why was s/he not at the motion in limine hearing? Would you really save this witness for later while you whole case burns to the ground?

MOO

 

[Salah11]

You quoted me. I don't understand what you have never heard before?
My comment?

Yes and besides you saying this I have never heard this before.

It’s not how the motion sensor works unless broken and we know for a fact it wasn’t broken as it was tracking the steps of whichever girl had the phone until they was fatally wounded.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

I have no opinions one way or the other about any of the other stuff.
I was only talking about how step-tracking apps work.

Cecil said the only way her iPhone Apple app would track movement in a car is if the car hit a bump or something.

3 Day Hearing - Google Drive

drive.google.com

Yes - this is why you get no steps on your bike (usually), but you can create steps sitting in a chair by swinging your arms back and forth. Steps involve short jerky back and forth motions

Often in a car there is no acceleration as you are travelling at a constant speed, or its smooth acceleration positive or negative.