Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #197

[Emma Peel]

RA's Cass County Jail record for 2024:

VINELink

w/ typo (?) on the record. JMO

(Noticed this error, just thought I'd use the link to update my thread bookmark. Haven't visited the thread in a bit. Hope this finds all doing well as we await trial (and in my neck of the woods, peak color season.)

 

[FrostedGlass]

Because they're expert in their field, blood splatter. They need to look at the media then do calculations using landmarks at the scene. The jurors are not qualified to do that. That's why they ARE expert witnesses testifying, to help them understand the science of blood splatter. Jurors don't need to see the actual ground Libby's blood was spilt and pooled over nor the tree. It's been documented and now analyzed by an expert who will tell them the knowledge, the science they need to consider. MO

Your quote was in answer to @photographer4 post about the expert going to the scene this year. My take on that whole conversation is: if the scene was intact enough for the expert to do his work, then it should be intact enough for the jurors to view without confusing them.

Blood spatter is also considered subjective and has contributed to wrongful convictions in some exoneration cases. MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

RA's Cass County Jail record for 2024:

VINELink

w/ typo (?) on the record. JMO

(Noticed this error, just thought I'd use the link to update my thread bookmark. Haven't visited the thread in a bit. Hope this finds all doing well as we await trial (and in my neck of the woods, peak color season.)

Yeah... he's definitely not black. IMO

 

[tlcya]

Has Gull ruled on the motion letting the jury visit the scene?
I would be absolutely shocked if she allows it.

chiming in late. she will rule on that after the jury is seated. My own thinking is that she wants to see what the physical capabilities are of the jury once seated before deciding if jurors are up to such a field trip. JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

How would a site visit work?

Since it is the DT that is requesting it, would they lead the “tour”?

Would the DT be able to provide commentary as the Jurors moved from point to point?

Who would point out the various significant locations and provide context?

Without every Juror being able to access/view the bowl (and I don’t think it is possible), I honestly don’t think a visit will be permitted.

MOO

The defense requested the trip in the motion but the judge will decide the rules for the visit. I think the defense even said that in the motion…judge lays out the rules.
In the Murdaugh trial, nobody was allowed to talk to the jurors. If you remember though, that despicable defense team preset Moselle with Maggie’s bike in the yard and a flower pot with Buster’s name on it, etc to try and make it look like a happy home instead of a crime scene.
I don’t think the judge will allow the visit either, certainly not if some jurors physically can’t do it, but also only going to the more accessible parts would not present a complete picture.

 

[FrostedGlass]

RA's Cass County Jail record for 2024:

VINELink

w/ typo (?) on the record. JMO

(Noticed this error, just thought I'd use the link to update my thread bookmark. Haven't visited the thread in a bit. Hope this finds all doing well as we await trial (and in my neck of the woods, peak color season.)

The drop-down list also shows this one; what are the odds of there being 2 Richard Allens, same age, except one is black and the other white?

RICHARD MATTHEW ALLEN​

Custody Record
Age52
GenderMale
RaceWhite
IN: Carroll County Sheriff's Office
ID Number228**
Custody StatusIn Custody
Custody DetailCarroll County Jail
Record DetailsGet Notified

 

[shonyakay]

Yeah... he's definitely not black. IMO

I can't stop laughing. I'm actually crying.

 

[shonyakay]

chiming in late. she will rule on that after the jury is seated. My own thinking is that she wants to see what the physical capabilities are of the jury once seated before deciding if jurors are up to such a field trip. JMO

My own thinking is Gull has the patience of a saint and once all the evidence is revealed everyone will realize that.

 

[FromGermany1]

RA's Cass County Jail record for 2024:

VINELink

w/ typo (?) on the record. JMO

(Noticed this error, just thought I'd use the link to update my thread bookmark. Haven't visited the thread in a bit. Hope this finds all doing well as we await trial (and in my neck of the woods, peak color season.)

At least he is still male ....

 

[sunshineray]

Your quote was in answer to @photographer4 post about the expert going to the scene this year. My take on that whole conversation is: if the scene was intact enough for the expert to do his work, then it should be intact enough for the jurors to view without confusing them.

Blood spatter is also considered subjective and has contributed to wrongful convictions in some exoneration cases. MOO

That can never be true, IMO, because they have not the same expertise that has taken years for him to develop. MO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I can't stop laughing. I'm actually crying.

In regard to the Cass Co./Carroll Co. RA custody location:
I honestly don't know how to react. RA's said to be one of the most high-profile accused murderers in Indiana and yet they have a mix-up on his location and his color. For me, it's just another vote of "NO Confidence" and I think I'll put it in the Carroll Co. box because he's officially their pretrial detainee. MOO

 

[shonyakay]

In regard to the Cass Co./Carroll Co. RA custody location:
I honestly don't know how to react. RA's said to be one of the most high-profile accused murderers in Indiana and yet they have a mix-up on his location and his color. For me, it's just another vote of "NO Confidence" and I think I'll put it in the Carroll Co. box because he's officially their pretrial detainee. MOO

Maybe it is for his protection. Hee hee.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Do you think it was just a vague notion rather than specific individuals? "Good reason to believe" sounds pretty specific to me. Just my opinion, of course.

Judge weighs whether to unseal records in teens' killings

DELPHI, Ind. (AP) — An Indiana judge said Tuesday that she will decide soon whether to unseal court records that led to a man’s arrest in the 2017 killings of two teenage girls, while a prosecutor urged the court to keep the documents sealed because others could be involved in the case.

apnews.com

Whatever the reason, it was the basis for the P directing the ISP to keep the arrest docs and others sealed.
Which was in violation of the Access to Public Records Act.

https://www.in.gov/pac/files/advisory/22-FC-157.pdf

<RSBBM>

From your attached APRA opinion, there are cases of exemption. ISP agrees APRA Record Log creation within 24 hours but not for disclosure for inspection or copying. See page 7 (especially footnote 2 below).

2) LE has broad discretion in withholding details and investigative materials except the items in the daily log.
The level of detail of the daily log varies on a case by case basis.

There are exemptions and discretionary exceptions as indicated in Ind. Code 5-14-3-4-(a)-to (b).

I'd say the nature and sensitivity of this high profile case was an exception and exemption to many standard things logged into a Daily Log Record by multiple LE agencies.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

<RSBBM>

From your attached APRA opinion, there are cases of exemption. ISP agrees APRA Record Log creation within 24 hours but not for disclosure for inspection or copying. See page 7 (especially footnote 2 below).

2) LE has broad discretion in withholding details and investigative materials except the items in the daily log.
The level of detail of the daily log varies on a case by case basis.

There are exemptions and discretionary exceptions as indicated in Ind. Code 5-14-3-4-(a)-to (b).

I'd say the nature and sensitivity of this high profile case was an exception and exemption to many standard things logged into a Daily Log Record by multiple LE agencies.

JMO

All I know is this (taken from the link):
This office previously addressed this issue in a case where ISP was also the respondent. In that case, this office observed the following: (LONG)... Since the law requires creation of the record within 24 hours, a reasonable time to provide that record should be no more than the time to create it. The APRA does not require many records to be created pursuant to its provisions, but this is one of them. In turn, they should be maintained in a manner which is easily accessible and requests should not be difficult to fulfill promptly.

Opinion of the Public Access Counselor, 20-FC-25 (2020). The same conclusion applies today.
CONCLUSION
Based on the foregoing, it is the opinion of this office that the daily log information required by the Access to Public Records Act should have been made available on demand no later than 24 hours after the suspect’s arrest.

https://www.in.gov/pac/files/advisory/22-FC-157.pdf

 

[girlhasnoname]

I meant that the court of opinion goes a long way sometimes in determining how people think. I cannot speak to his reputation before his arrest for the murders. Also, to add if the evidence says he did it, then he did it because I do not know what is in his background and do not know about him or his reputation before his arrest for the Delphi murders. I only think that he was not what I was expecting when it came to the person I thought would have committed the murders. That is my opinion.

Mine either, but in reality, who did we think was going to be the type of person that committed these murders? We had a parade of potential suspects over the years. lol

Someone with a long arrest record, a SO, a biker gang member? It surely wasn't the meek, mild, 45 yo, little man from the local CVS that's for sure. (At least not for me)

There are so many killers that nobody, including their own families, had a clue of what they were up to. LISK, Dennis Radar, Ted Bundy and on and on.

I just want Justice for Abby & Libby, finally, after all these years of pain and heartache of the families. I want a sick, demented monster to pay for the vicious, brutal killing of these two young innocent girls.

We will probably never really know the 'Why' of what happened that day and I am okay with that because I do not think my mind can comprehend any reasoning of why or how it happened.

#Justice4Abby&Libby

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Point 7. Six seats are reserved for RA’s family during the trial. His family support is very small. The number of jurors deciding his fate is twice that. I wonder is that his entire family circle or have some chosen to stay away….

Wow, it's only been RA's wife and mother so far. I wonder who is going to fill the other 4 chairs?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Maybe it is for his protection. Hee hee.

Of course! Why didn't I think of that? LOL

 

[girlhasnoname]

All I know is this (taken from the link):
This office previously addressed this issue in a case where ISP was also the respondent. In that case, this office observed the following: (LONG)... Since the law requires creation of the record within 24 hours, a reasonable time to provide that record should be no more than the time to create it. The APRA does not require many records to be created pursuant to its provisions, but this is one of them. In turn, they should be maintained in a manner which is easily accessible and requests should not be difficult to fulfill promptly.

Opinion of the Public Access Counselor, 20-FC-25 (2020). The same conclusion applies today.
CONCLUSION
Based on the foregoing, it is the opinion of this office that the daily log information required by the Access to Public Records Act should have been made available on demand no later than 24 hours after the suspect’s arrest.

https://www.in.gov/pac/files/advisory/22-FC-157.pdf

Yes, it was the ruling in this particular case. All cases differ as stated in my response. Honestly, if anyone wants to wager that every single LE office in the US is generating and creating an APRA Daily Log Book within 24 hrs and maintaining it daily, I am all in.

It doesn't make it right, it's just reality. IMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

The only reason I can think of is the logistics of getting them to the area on private property and the cooperation of property owners causing problems?

I suppose it's possible the way in and out go by areas the prosecution doesn't want viewed as to not confuse the jury?

Also all of the memorials and remembrances of Abby and Libby there at the site as well. IMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Yes, it was the ruling in this particular case. All cases differ as stated in my response. Honestly, if anyone wants to wager that every single LE office in the US is generating and creating an APRA Daily Log Book within 24 hrs and maintaining it daily, I am all in.

It doesn't make it right, it's just reality. IMO

The ruling was the same in both of the cases involving ISP, which is the entity that creates the logs in question.
I'm only interested in what's going on regarding Indiana's open door policies because I live here. I don't have an interest in what other states do.