About the pineapple

[shotgunhomicide]

Wait.. just so we're clear, Patsy admitted to writing the practice RN? I can't seem to independently verify this information anywhere besides WS. DeeDee, if you could specify what you mean or a source backing this claim, I would be forever grateful.

If true, that's damning evidence for the assumption that PR wrote the note. I personally leave little room to doubt this particular piece of evidence being from anyone other than PR, but that pretty much demolishes any credibility to the "experts" that definitively say she didn't write the note.

Thanks in advance, DD.

 

[DeeDee249]

Wait.. just so we're clear, Patsy admitted to writing the practice RN? I can't seem to independently verify this information anywhere besides WS. DeeDee, if you could specify what you mean or a source backing this claim, I would be forever grateful.

If true, that's damning evidence for the assumption that PR wrote the note. I personally leave little room to doubt this particular piece of evidence being from anyone other than PR, but that pretty much demolishes any credibility to the "experts" that definitively say she didn't write the note.

Thanks in advance, DD.

I believe it was Patsy's sister who told police that the "practice" note was really the start "of an invitation or something". Remember that Patsy wasn't officially interviewed by LE until about 4 years later, and by then, all she said about most things was that she "didn't remember".
The practice note wasn't really a note- it was just a few words, like a greeting on a letter. It read "Mr & Mrs Ramsey...", where as the real note was addressed only to "Mr. Ramsey". If Patsy wrote the RN (and I believe she did) that may be why she chose to leave herself out of it and address the note only to JR. If you recall the RN, it went all over the place as far as hinting at who was the kidnapper. It claimed to be a "small foreign faction", and oddly said the "respected his bussiness (sic), which is strange coming from someone who would kidnap and kill a child because of some beef with JR. Then we have the ransom amount in the exact amount of his bonus that year, seeming to point to an employee or some business associate.
I believe this hinting to JR's company being the reason for the kidnapping may have been behind the reason to scrap the original note and start again using only JR's name.
The comment about the "practice" not may have come from acandyrose site, or I may have read it in either Steve Thomas' or Schiller's book, don't recall which. I don't bookmark or save things like that (no ROOM for all the stuff on this case) but many long-time posters here should remember the comment about the practice note. I remember being appalled that LE never questioned Patsy as to how she could explain that the handwriting on the practice note was the same as the RN. Like many things that should have been brought up, this never was (in any official investigation).
If anyone remembers where or when the comments about the practice note were first published, let us know.

 

[BBB167893]

Wait.. just so we're clear, Patsy admitted to writing the practice RN? I can't seem to independently verify this information anywhere besides WS. DeeDee, if you could specify what you mean or a source backing this claim, I would be forever grateful.

If true, that's damning evidence for the assumption that PR wrote the note. I personally leave little room to doubt this particular piece of evidence being from anyone other than PR, but that pretty much demolishes any credibility to the "experts" that definitively say she didn't write the note.

Thanks in advance, DD.

Hi, shotgun. While we wait for DD to get back to you, I'll just say two things. One, despite the juvenile assertions of some, no expert who examined the note EVER said definitively that she did NOT write it. And two, your use of quotation marks to describe the experts who couldn't identify her is more appropriate than you know. My good friend KoldKase was shocked at the sheer incompetence of these so-called experts.

Well, KK's not the only one. It should tell you something when one of the finest handwriting examiners in the world turned his back on his beloved organization because--and he has stated this publically--they have become so focused on maintaining groupthink that they would allow such incompetence. To use a very corny analogy, this would be like Superman leaving the Justice League because they were no longer fighting for truth and justice, but had instead become the "Just-Us" League. (Hmm! I rather like that!)

Hope that helps.

Oh, one other thing. It should be pointed out that the "experts" you refer to were not aware until long afterwards that Patsy Ramsey was proficient in writing with BOTH hands.

 

[UKGuy]

Hi, shotgun. While we wait for DD to get back to you, I'll just say two things. One, despite the juvenile assertions of some, no expert who examined the note EVER said definitively that she did NOT write it. And two, your use of quotation marks to describe the experts who couldn't identify her is more appropriate than you know. My good friend KoldKase was shocked at the sheer incompetence of these so-called experts.

Well, KK's not the only one. It should tell you something when one of the finest handwriting examiners in the world turned his back on his beloved organization because--and he has stated this publically--they have become so focused on maintaining groupthink that they would allow such incompetence. To use a very corny analogy, this would be like Superman leaving the Justice League because they were no longer fighting for truth and justice, but had instead become the "Just-Us" League. (Hmm! I rather like that!)

Hope that helps.

Oh, one other thing. It should be pointed out that the "experts" you refer to were not aware until long afterwards that Patsy Ramsey was proficient in writing with BOTH hands.

SuperDave,
The RN is a staged artifact, a Ramsey wrote that note. No kidnapper wrote the note, then thought, Hey, I'm feeling tired right now, I reckon I'll just slip JonBenet into this here wine-cellar and sneak out the front door

Nearly everything I've read has Patsy down as its author, but I do not think it matters, since we all know an R killed JonBenet. There is not one piece of forensic evidence that links to an outsider, yet all the forensic evidence on JonBenet from fibers to underwear links directly to the R's.

If your book tells the story as to why the R's never came to court, I'll be buying it!



.

 

[DeeDee249]

I find it odd that JB had pineapple in her small intestine- but nothing from the Whites party. Is that correct? Sorry, not super good with the anatomy. I find it odd also about that night. How far did the Whites live from the Rs? I know they stopped, and JB and JR stayed in the car, but shouldn't they have been talking about their Christmas- did you like what you got? Are you bringing anything new to MI or the Cruise? Then again pretty much everything is odd about this case.

Also, where can I see pictures from the White's Christmas party regarding clothes? I think that part of ACR is under construction.

Thanks!

Whatever she ate at the White's was most likely found in the autopsy as the "soft green fecal material". As it was eaten earlier, hours before the pineapple, it would have progressed to a further point in the digestive tract and no longer been identifiable as to the specific foods. However the pineapple had been eaten within 2 hours of her death and was found in the small intestine, which received contents right from the stomach. At that point in digestion foods are only partially broken down, which was why the pineapple was able to be identified as pineapple.
There are no pictures from the White's that have been made public. Only LE have access, which is how they know for sure exactly what the Rs, including JB, were wearing that night.
The ACR site is completely archived now and I don't think there is anything that is going to be added at this point. Those photos won't be released because the case is still unsolved.

 

[cynic]

If anyone remembers where or when the comments about the practice note were first published, let us know.

Jeff Shapiro’s account:
Several days after I met with Thomas and Harmer, Pam Griffin told Frank Coffman that Patsy Ramsey wrote the words Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey on the same lined pad that the ransom note was written on. Pam said Patsy had told her that it was the beginning of an invitation she was writing: “Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey…invite you…” By then there was a rumor that the cops believed this writing was a false start on the ransom note. If what Pam said was true, it was important to the police.
Moments after I heard what Coffman had learned, I left a message for Thomas on his voice mail. He called me back from his car, and I told him what Coffman had learned. I literally heard Thomas hit the brakes.
“Jeff, that’s no *advertiser censored***n’ invitation.”
The next day, the police asked Coffman and me to come down to headquarters so that Coffman could get Griffin on the phone and have her restate what she’d said. The police would tape-record the conversation. At first all we got was Pam’s answering machine.
…
Finally we reached Pam Griffin. As the police listened in on her conversation with Coffman, she told him it was Alex Hunter who, in a phone conversation with her, had suggested that the words Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey might be the beginning of an invitation.
—Jeff Shapiro
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 436 - 437

Steve Thomas’ account:
Only a few days later, I discovered that the DA’s office had sat on potentially incriminating evidence.
Frank Coffman, a local writer, had told me that Pam Griffin, a friend of Patsy Ramsey’s from kiddie pageant circles, claimed Patsy had told her about writing the so-called practice note for some innocent reason. I jumped at the possibility that a suspect had admitted to a third party that she had written it. It was a huge development, and I brought it up promptly.
DA investigator Lou Smit coughed then acknowledged that he had received the same information some time earlier. “I was going to write a report on that,” he said. I was appalled that he had not placed it before us immediately. It seemed to me that if something pointed against the Ramseys, it might never reach the detectives. If that had surfaced, what else could there be? Why were they putting material that might help the Ramsey cause into the case file when legitimate leads such as this were stashed in a desk drawer somewhere? Burying leads from fellow investigators is one of the worst things a detective can do because it destroys trust.
Nothing came from several attempts to get Pam Griffin to repeat her statement to police, and the DA’s office wasn’t impressed enough to force her immediate testimony.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 225

Frank Coffman’s account:
Shapiro's rapport with Thomas won him certain privileges. On at least one occasion, Thomas allowed Shapiro to sit in on a sensitive investigation. In July 1997, Thomas asked me to come to the police station to phone Pam Griffin, a friend of Patsy Ramsey, so that he could surreptitiously tape the conversation. The detective wanted to document a remarkable assertion that Griffin had made to me: Patsy Ramsey admitted to her that she wrote the so-called "practice note."
However, said Griffin, Patsy claimed that it was just the aborted start of an invitation to some event which Patsy couldn't recall. Thomas allowed Shapiro to monitor my conversation with Griffin. The session was a bust, though, when Griffin dismissed her previous comments as "speculation" about Patsy's actions.
Boulder Weekly, Frank Coffman, February 29, 1999
http://thehistoryvault.tripod.com/02...gfrenzy-bw.htm

 

[DeeDee249]

Thank you Cynic, for once again coming to the rescue. It was Patsy's friend Pam Griffin and not her sister Pam. I knew I remembered it was "Pam", I just didn't remember which Pam it was. I wonder why she backtracked and said it was "speculation"....oh wait, I don't have to wonder. The same reason Mrs. Stanton, who heard the scream, backtracked. Pressure from the RST.

All LE would have had to do was confront Patsy with that practice note and ask her if she wrote it. By then, though, she and LW would be on to it and I doubt she'd admit to it at that point.
Had this case gone to trial, Pam Griffin could have been called as a witness. I wonder if she would have had the courage to tell the truth then.
There was a LOT that would have come out at a trial. Asking the coroner why he did not put his findings of digital penetration and a partial fingerprint on the body in his report would have been a start, too.

 

[shotgunhomicide]

Thanks for both of your responses DeeDee and Superdave. Sorry it took me so long to reply. I've lurked here for a very long time and I very much admire the objectivity both of you bring forth in your responses even though I sometimes disagree with parts of your theories. Anyhow, i'm still figuring out how the forum operates beyond reading the threads. So bare with me please

To Dave, I used the quotation marks around "experts" mainly because this seems to be the most subjective part of the case. I pay more mind to MY own conclusions here because, while i'm no expert on this case or at investigating in general, there's certainly nothing wrong with my eyesight and I can clearly see the resemblance of the handwriting in the note to PR's personal handwriting. That's one HELL of a coincidence, if you ask me. (note; I don't believe in coincidences especially not in this case. too much stinks and most of it's coming from the Ramsey's)

DeeDee, I guess i'm going to have to read ST's book one of these days. You fine folks do an excellent job of providing sources for information and I feel like I have an good grasp of the content of all of the books that have been written on this case, but it's never a bad idea to be caught up on the ins-and-outs of each character in this crazy story (don't you wish this was all just a story... *sigh*)

 

[DeeDee249]

Thanks for both of your responses DeeDee and Superdave. Sorry it took me so long to reply. I've lurked here for a very long time and I very much admire the objectivity both of you bring forth in your responses even though I sometimes disagree with parts of your theories. Anyhow, i'm still figuring out how the forum operates beyond reading the threads. So bare with me please

DeeDee, I guess i'm going to have to read ST's book one of these days. You fine folks do an excellent job of providing sources for information and I feel like I have an good grasp of the content of all of the books that have been written on this case, but it's never a bad idea to be caught up on the ins-and-outs of each character in this crazy story (don't you wish this was all just a story... *sigh*)

ST's book is a very quick read- it is pretty riveting, and I think you'd be glad you read it. It is available in paperback, and it's pretty cheap on Amazon for a used copy, and libraries should be able to get it too.
If time is an issue, you can get a 2-hour "tutorial" on the case by watching Lawrence Schiller's DVD movie if his book "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town".
I found it on Netflix, but then I bought my own copy on Amazon. I like to re-watch it every once in a while. I recommend watching it a second time with the director (Schiller) comments turned on, because you can get a lot of insight that way into how Schiller saw the case. He was given direct access to the house itself by the Rs, and he recreated his interior sets to look exactly like the R house, right down to the wallpaper. The real house was used in exterior shots. The movie is fairly neutral, but it is pretty clear Schiller thought the parents knew what happened, if not responsible for the killing itself. I recommend watching it to every new person studying the case. because it is under 2 hours of your time and gives a good overview.
It has some well-known cast- Marg Helgenberger plays Patsy and Ann-Margaret plays Patsy's mother Nedra.
Sometimes screen shots from the movie appear online and people confuse them with real footage of JB because the little actress portraying JB looks a lot like the real JB. Every once in a while someone will comment on a photo of JB in her coffin in a tiara and pink pageant dress. This photo is actually from this movie and not actual photos of JB in her coffin. While Schiller used a mannequin for JB's stiffened corpse and shots on the autopsy table, I am not sure if the actual young actress posed in the coffin or if he used a mannequin for that as well.

 

[Junebug99]

Hearsay and gossip being presented as facts.

 

[DeeDee249]

Hearsay and gossip being presented as facts.

Nope- lots of facts. The results of police investigations and the autopsy report (among other things) are not hearsay or gossip- they are facts. The RN isn't hearsay or gossip either- we can see it with our own eyes.

 

[Junebug99]

I am talking about PR writing the practice note, THAT is hearsay and gossip.

 

[DeeDee249]

I am talking about PR writing the practice note, THAT is hearsay and gossip.

Several experts say she wrote the note. Besides, I can see for myself that she wrote it- her handwriting matches perfectly.

 

[UKGuy]

Hearsay and gossip being presented as facts.

Junebug99,
That fibers from both parents was discovered at the crime-scene is not hearsay or gossip. Its recorded forensic evidence.

That JonBenet was chronically and acutely sexually assaulted is not hearsay or gossip, it arises directly from the autopsy report.

That Patsy Ramsey lied to investigators regarding the Bloomingdales size-12's is not hearsay or gossip, its available to read as an interview verbatim.

That no details regarding the location of any Ramsey DNA found on JonBenet has ever been released, is not hearsay or gossip.


.

 

[shotgunhomicide]

I've seen PMPT twice on different occasions when it was playing on Lifetime movie network. As informative as it was, "dead JB" (the dummy) was possibly the worst recreation of a dead body that i've ever seen on television. I understand that the parents of the little actress didn't want to emotionally scar her from having to play a corpse in the movie, but geeze, it was so bad! I wouldn't say i'm a newcomer to this case though. For all extensive purposes, i've grown up with this case. JB and I were the same age when she died (i'm only 3 months older than her) and I still vividly remember all of the news coverage and sensationalized tabloid stories by the check out at the supermarket. I guess that's why my curiosity peaked a year or so ago and I decided to really take a close look at the evidence. Even though we both come from such different backgrounds (her being a rich beauty queen and me being from a less privileged background), I still think about all of the things i've gotten to do with my life and all of the things I still want to do that JB never has or never will get to experience. It's nauseating. Again, i'm grateful to all of you for being so amazing at posting transcripts and summarizing reading material. There are so many books out on the subject, it would take me a while to get caught up on all of them and there are other murder/missing persons/wrongful conviction cases i'm heavily involved in. So I try to split my time evenly on them so I don't get burnt out, thus becoming unproductive.

Sorry for the TMI! I just wanted to give you guys an idea of who I am and what brings me here. Carry on.

 

[DeeDee249]

I totally agree with you on the dummy used to portray JB's corpse, especially in the scene where she is brought up from the basement. When you watch PMPT on TV, you can't listen to the director's commentary like you can when you actually have the DVD. Schiller's voice-over said that he had access to the real autopsy photos, and when he was designing the mannequin he chose to make it less grotesque than the actual appearance of the corpse, which he saw in the photos but not in real life. He described her corpse as much more grotesque than the portrayal in his movie. The mannequin that appears on the autopsy table is more realistic- I think it is the doll-like stiffness and hardness that makes that first scene so unrealistic to people. And if course we can tell from the real autopsy photos that her mouth was open, not closed as portrayed, when she was on the autopsy table.
What at first seems most unrealistic about the stiff and hard appearance of the corpse, to the point of seeming almost made of wood, and making a sound like wood when she is laid on the floor- is that you can almost see the body rocking a bit, like a real mannequin made of composite or pressed wood.
I don't think a real body in full rigor would make a sound like that, but I can tell you that the stiffness, if not the hardness, of a body in full rigor would be almost like that scene in the movie.

 

[KoldKase]

I've seen PMPT twice on different occasions when it was playing on Lifetime movie network. As informative as it was, "dead JB" (the dummy) was possibly the worst recreation of a dead body that i've ever seen on television. I understand that the parents of the little actress didn't want to emotionally scar her from having to play a corpse in the movie, but geeze, it was so bad! I wouldn't say i'm a newcomer to this case though. For all extensive purposes, i've grown up with this case. JB and I were the same age when she died (i'm only 3 months older than her) and I still vividly remember all of the news coverage and sensationalized tabloid stories by the check out at the supermarket. I guess that's why my curiosity peaked a year or so ago and I decided to really take a close look at the evidence. Even though we both come from such different backgrounds (her being a rich beauty queen and me being from a less privileged background), I still think about all of the things i've gotten to do with my life and all of the things I still want to do that JB never has or never will get to experience. It's nauseating. Again, i'm grateful to all of you for being so amazing at posting transcripts and summarizing reading material. There are so many books out on the subject, it would take me a while to get caught up on all of them and there are other murder/missing persons/wrongful conviction cases i'm heavily involved in. So I try to split my time evenly on them so I don't get burnt out, thus becoming unproductive.

Sorry for the TMI! I just wanted to give you guys an idea of who I am and what brings me here. Carry on.

Thanks for sharing that with us.

For those of you who were children when this happened, with all the media coverage, I think some of your innocence was stolen. Those of us much older never had to experience as children that kind of in-your-face fear that came with seeing a brutally murdered child's face at every turn, constantly being reminded how vulnerable we were and that there are monsters who can and do go after even children.

I wish I could give you something as neat as a book to read to explain this entire nightmare of a case, but it's taken me 15 years of hard research to determine the truth. Since we'll never see this murder tried in any court, and since so many lies, so much disinformation, and so many red herrings have been spun through those years by many powerful people who should have been seeking the truth, not self-promotion and obstruction of justice, it can be a very long journey.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I was 4 when JonBenet was murdered. I have very foggy memories of the case in the media from when I was in elementary school; late 90s/early 00s. It wasn't until 2005 though when I really found out about the case. However, JonBenet's murder never scared me; it was actually the cases like Samantha Runnion, Danielle Van Dam, Carlie Brucia that terrified me. I think that a lot of people could name at least one case from their childhood that scared them, or they at least remember.

 

[KoldKase]

I was 4 when JonBenet was murdered. I have very foggy memories of the case in the media from when I was in elementary school; late 90s/early 00s. It wasn't until 2005 though when I really found out about the case. However, JonBenet's murder never scared me; it was actually the cases like Samantha Runnion, Danielle Van Dam, Carlie Brucia that terrified me. I think that a lot of people could name at least one case from their childhood that scared them, or they at least remember.

People from your generation could, I'm sure.

From 50 or more years ago...things like this never made it into the news, not in details like we have seen in the last 20 years, even 10 years.

Before the Internet, before cable TV, before tabloids, there were three major network news channels--and that was all there was. News reports aired live at 6-7 PM, and again from 11 to 11:30 PM. That was the national and international news we got. I don't even remember local news on TV when I was a child, just a small, local newspaper.

It was a different time. Remember John F. Kennedy carried on many affairs, complete with hookers in the White House pool, and not one word was reported or printed about it by any reporter or media until decades later, even though he was dead. Any kind of scandal or murder that made the news was treated with extreme dignity; covering up a murder in a family of privilege like the Ramseys would have been no problem at all in those days. We children might have heard snatches of whispers about neighbors or crimes or such, but we were protected from any kind of exposure to things considered too mature and/or frightening for our young minds.

I often have wondered if the Ramseys expected that same ease, as they were from my generation or older.

It was very different than the world you have grown up in, Eileen. That's why I can't relate to what you young people have experienced. Technology has given us very different frames of reference. While your generation grew up with sex education in a world where child predators are not only prosecuted but have their deeds and faces blasted into our collective consciousness, my generation grew up in a world where the word "sex" wasn't even mentioned in front of children, or teens and adults, for that matter.

I've looked back through the years to realize I had two child molesters living within four houses of mine, on either side, when I was growing up. Not only did their families protect them, one continued to molest children in his own family until his very old age.

I hope your knowledge and education has empowered you.

 

[shotgunhomicide]

I'm going to go on a semi-off topic rant here, so bare with me, but I don't recall the internet being a big fixture when I was a child like it is now. The other night, I was looking through some JB "investigative reports" on youtube and I was astounded by the amount of preteens that not only watched and commented on these videos, but they know of several other high profile cases that have played out over the past decade. I don't even think I really knew about the existence of the internet until I was already in middle school (and I definitely didn't know about the dangers that are out there besides the obligatory "don't talk to strangers" comments from adults), but these kids are really involved in ALL types of websites and chat rights. Social media being the most popular choice for youngins. I guess that's why the internet SHOULD be a parents worst nightmare in a culture that watches shows like "to catch a predator" for entertainment purposes. I still can't help but feel like these parents are robbing their kids of their childhood by allowing them unsupervised access to the internet. I strongly feel as if this particular scenario is more dangerous to children than the kiddy pageant circuit was when I was still a kid. Perverts dwell in all corners of the web and they can masquerade as almost anyone. Indeed, it's a sign of the times. Like you said, KK, even though there are particular dangers lurking everywhere that were almost unheard of in the past, there is also an unprecedented amount of programs (like the sex offender list) and 24/hour media circuits that give us access to the world that wasn't possible in the past. I've noticed that this board has a few international members that are posting from different places all over the world. So, while i'm very much grateful for the technological advances, i'm still concerned about the impact its going to have on kids that are young and impressionable. It's a double edged sword.

With all that said, we're in a pretty special position by being allowed to have documented evidence, transcripts, subpoenas, interviews, crime scene photos and a wealth of pertinent information relating to this case and others like it. Call me an optimist, but I really do think that communities such as this are sometimes necessary to ensure justice and educate the masses. Look the Amanda Knox trial and subsequent acquittal. I believe with every fiber in my body that she had nothing to do with Meredith Kercher's untimely death, but I think she'd still be rotting in an Italian jail if it wasn't her supporters that did everything from holding fundraisers for her legal defense to becoming a mockery to their peers (ex FBI agent, Steve Moore John Douglas [which I know how people generally feel about him]. Also, Frank Sfarzo's website that publicly challenged prosecutors on the AK case (perugiashock) was arrested because of his conclusion that AK and RS were innocent. It may sound cliche, but progress doesn't happen until people ban together to prevent these injustices from happening. Together, we can do a lot!