Well, if they lied about one part of this, in my view, they'd lie wherever they thought it beneficial. I don't believe for a minute they dis-remember their daughter's last waking hours and whether she was asleep or not. They thought she was asleep until the autopsy report (that they say they didn't discuss or read) told the world JonBenet had eaten pineapple not long before her death. It was an "oops, we forgot" moment.
About the pineapple
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Well, if they lied about one part of this, in my view, they'd lie wherever they thought it beneficial. I don't believe for a minute they dis-remember their daughter's last waking hours and whether she was asleep or not. They thought she was asleep until the autopsy report (that they say they didn't discuss or read) told the world JonBenet had eaten pineapple not long before her death. It was an "oops, we forgot" moment.
Patsy tried to get away with saying it wasn't her bowl until photos taken at her own party three days before showed that very bowl on her table.
See...it's the LIES about stuff like THIS that make their guilt so obvious to me. Why lie about a bowl or box of kleenex? Makes no sense.
Yes, those lies. And the physical evidence. And the means, motive, and opportunity of it. Now, I do believe it was an accidental death, without motive to kill, but Patsy wanted control and she engaged force to get it. Then when she saw what she had done she had two choices: cover it up or be arrested. The only other probability for me is if by some very long shot she is covering for her son.
BOESP,
Denying the Breakfast Bar evidence must mean an intruder brought a complete pineapple snack, including bowls, tissues etc, along with a brand new pack of size-12 Bloomingdales. Too bizarre to comment on.
If you reckon it was an accidental PDI, where does the sexual abuse fit in?
Sexual abuse fits in the category of "corporal punishment" per Steve Thomas's book. Perhaps abusive corporal cleansing might be a better terminology for my view point. I don't think JonBenet was abused by either parent for sexual gratification although there may be evidence not made public that would change my view.
BOESP,
Well maybe it is abusive corporal cleansing but for me JonBenet's internal injuries seem to indicate chronic abuse. The Coroner cited sexual contact which has nothing to do with cleansing, Its this aspect that was being hidden away by the staging, why not blame the abusive corporal cleansing on the intruder, why add size-12's and tell everyone where the problem is?
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Digital penetration can be for sexual gratification or for cleansing or medication purposes. If it is done enough times it's going to leave gross evidence of sexual contact. I'm not going to get hung up on semantics here.
I can see Patsy wanting to use staging to coverup what she'd done. I doubt anyone would believe an Intruder used abusive corporal cleansing on JonBenet. Patsy had to make it look like a perverted killer kidnapped her daughter.
These are the kinds of questions that would have been asked on the witness stand. There had been talk (by Patsy's friends, I believe) that she used to douche JB after JB started soiling her pants again. Patsy may have attributed the frequent vaginitis to the fecal matter that would have been an irritant for sure, laying in her panties, so close to her skin and vagina.
If police had interviewed people who new her, there might not be so many uncertainties about this. Certainly a douche wand could cause damage in a 6 -year old child, especially if done too vigorously. But I still feel the coroner had it right- digital penetration was the cause of the hymenal erosion.
If police had interviewed people who new her, there might not be so many uncertainties about this. Certainly a douche wand could cause damage in a 6 -year old child, especially if done too vigorously. But I still feel the coroner had it right- digital penetration was the cause of the hymenal erosion.
DeeDee249,
I have always assumed the pants on JonBenet's spare bed were the velvet pants, e.g. see photo 5 below:
For completeness, here is one of JonBenet's bed with the pink top lying near the headboard. Now its my understanding that the pink bottoms were never recovered from the house, at least they are not itemized anywhere?
If you review photo 5, you might note how neatly JonBenet's velvet pants have been placed on the bed, there are other items there, but I forget what they are. So it appears when JonBenet returned from the White's, those black velvet pants were removed, now could this have occurred prior to the pineapple snack or afterwards? That is were her velvet pants removed to facilitate a sexual assault?
Here is a close up of the pink top, the same one JonBenet wore on Christmas morning, as she was hugged by Patsy:
Now what is interesting here is that we know that on 25th December JonBenet was wearing the pink top and bottoms, we also know that JonBenet removed the pink top and bottoms, and redressed herself in the play pants, found soiled on her bathroom floor, before going out to play on her new bike. So presumably her pink bottoms should have been found in her bedroom, just as the top was?
John Ramsey comments:
Patsy Ramsey comments:
Note no follow up on the pink pajama bottoms, but I reckon the question was asked to verify their existence?
Question: why does John describe it as knit long sleeve, long -- like long underwear kind of top and Patsy as tops and bottoms? ?
So if you review the Clothing issue, you might find that JonBenet's pink bottoms and size-6 underwear are both missing, each of which you might be forgiven for thinking she may have been wearing the night she was killed? Now are they missing for the same reason, e.g. forensically tainted?
The other piece of Clothing is of course the blood-stained pink barbie nightgown, found along with JonBenet, in the wine-cellar. Why so, well it looks to me as if the nightgown was used to replace the pink bottoms, and white-gap top, but when the crime-scene was restaged as a kidnapping, and her sexual assault needed to be hidden from view, on went the size-12's and white longjohns, and white-gap top, all to add consistency to the direct to bed version of events?
So I would hypothesize that the JonBenet crime-scene is missing a pair of size-6 underwear and a pair of pink pajama bottoms?
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Noodles
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You mean in pic 2 above? I thought that was the pillow on the foot-end of the bed.
smurf86
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Welcome noodles, yeah pic 2. I though that was a duvet as it looks too big to be a pillow
Noodles
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Welcome noodles, yeah pic 2. I though that was a duvet as it looks too big to be a pillow
Thanks smurf.
The pic is kinda hard to tell what is what. I thought that thing on top of the pink duvet was a Beauty and the Beast (?) pillowcase (yellow on the side touching the bed). Also, UKGuy asked about pink PJ bottoms. Looks like to me there is something pink under this thing I think is a pillow, kinda between the blue arm of the cartoon and that multicolored whatever it is...
That was "Beauty & the Beast sheets" on the bed. LHP was shown the same crime photo and she told police that those were not the sheets that she put on the bed the last day she was there, which was the 23rd, the day of the Rs Christmas party, which she and her daughter attended. She was not due to come back to the R house until after the Rs had left for their trip.
Patsy used to strip the wet bedding off the bed each morning, but it was LHP who remade the bed with fresh sheets. LHP told police that when she arrived in mornings, the sheets and white blanket were already in the wash.
When Patsy put clean sheets on the days LHP did not come, she likely left the white blanket in the basement dryer for LHP to replace when she came. Certainly I can imagine Patsy would not take the time to go to the basement for the blanket Christmas morning, with all the activities that take place that morning. The bed in the crime photos was made without the blanket. The foot section of the bed was still neatly made up, and the police made a point of mentioning to Patsy that no one could have pulled the blanket off the bed and left the foot section still neatly made up.
LHP also said that JB's sheets were laundered in the small stacked washer/dryer right outside her bedroom, but the blanket was always laundered in the full-size washer in the basement because it didn't fit in the small washer. Interesting point that NO intruder would have known where that white blanket was. But Patsy knew. And one of Patsy's forearm hairs was found on the blanket.
Patsy used to strip the wet bedding off the bed each morning, but it was LHP who remade the bed with fresh sheets. LHP told police that when she arrived in mornings, the sheets and white blanket were already in the wash.
When Patsy put clean sheets on the days LHP did not come, she likely left the white blanket in the basement dryer for LHP to replace when she came. Certainly I can imagine Patsy would not take the time to go to the basement for the blanket Christmas morning, with all the activities that take place that morning. The bed in the crime photos was made without the blanket. The foot section of the bed was still neatly made up, and the police made a point of mentioning to Patsy that no one could have pulled the blanket off the bed and left the foot section still neatly made up.
LHP also said that JB's sheets were laundered in the small stacked washer/dryer right outside her bedroom, but the blanket was always laundered in the full-size washer in the basement because it didn't fit in the small washer. Interesting point that NO intruder would have known where that white blanket was. But Patsy knew. And one of Patsy's forearm hairs was found on the blanket.
It seems clear to me that the Ramseys lied about the pineapple because they feared that their story (JB asleep when they got home, everyone in bed quickly) would be revealed to be a lie if they had to explain that JB was awake and eating pineapple around 11...
My question is this: do we really believe the parents would tell Burke to say he'd gone right to sleep if asked by police any questions? Why would Burke not tell the police he had a late pineapple snack (if RDI w/no BDI scenario)?
I guess I'm going on the theory that Burke's finger prints place him at the scene of the pineapple snack...
I'm so hung up on this. What do folks think?
My question is this: do we really believe the parents would tell Burke to say he'd gone right to sleep if asked by police any questions? Why would Burke not tell the police he had a late pineapple snack (if RDI w/no BDI scenario)?
I guess I'm going on the theory that Burke's finger prints place him at the scene of the pineapple snack...
I'm so hung up on this. What do folks think?
BR has to lie about the pineapple too. The parents maintain that JB fell asleep in the car, never woke up, and was carried up to bed, and they never saw her alive again. In order to do this, they MUST deny all association with the pineapple snack, and even going so far as to try to deny owning a box of tissues, spoon and bowl that was SEEN in photos of their own party three days before.
I don't know if you recall reading this, but JR said that they KNEW BR was awake that morning but felt is was "easier" just to say he was asleep the whole time so he "wouldn't be bothered" being questioned.
Now...if you are the innocent parent of a kidnapped/murdered child, would you consider it a "bother" for police to question your surviving child, whose room was right down the hall, to see if he may have seen or heard something that might help police find his sister's killer?
Yeah...didn't think so.
DeeDee249,
Which demonstrates that JR saw BR as a weak link, no wonder he moved him out of the house ASAP.
But we have to assume it had nothing to do with the pineapple snack, since the R's overlooked the evidence, lying in plain sight!
Which actually is an indirect clue, if you get my drift, I think I'll ponder on this for a while.
Do you have a source for the quote?
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So if the Ramseys forgot about the pineapple initially, let's assume that there was a snack that night, involving Patsy, Burke, and JonBenet.
Was Burke questioned initially (in that interview in the first few days) about that night? Why did he not mention the pineapple? Didn't he say that JonBenet was awake when they got home? So it wasn't as if he was "coached" or if he was coached he didn't fully "obey" the parents' version of the story.
Do we assume that Burke just forgot about the pineapple snack?
This is so perplexing...
Was Burke questioned initially (in that interview in the first few days) about that night? Why did he not mention the pineapple? Didn't he say that JonBenet was awake when they got home? So it wasn't as if he was "coached" or if he was coached he didn't fully "obey" the parents' version of the story.
Do we assume that Burke just forgot about the pineapple snack?
This is so perplexing...
wonderllama
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This is why I say Burke is a piece of trash just like his father (me saying it, not websleuths).
He was clearly awake when they arrived home, therefore he is able to say whether JBR was awake at some stage during the "home to bed" period....and therefore his refusal to cooperate with authorities in recent times is pathetic.
He may be trying to move on with his life, but when you're still dragging baggage behind you, it can be awfully difficult.
He was clearly awake when they arrived home, therefore he is able to say whether JBR was awake at some stage during the "home to bed" period....and therefore his refusal to cooperate with authorities in recent times is pathetic.
He may be trying to move on with his life, but when you're still dragging baggage behind you, it can be awfully difficult.
This has probably been said a thousand times by many other posters that know much more about this case then I will ever know, but I will say it anyway just in case it hasnt been said.
The reason the lies about the pineapple are because somebody (one of the parents ) knew that the autopsy would show the pineapple and the medical people would be able to figure out a pretty accurate time of death.
And so, if the parents said the kids had pineapple at say 10:45 or 11:00
and then had to get ready for bed, brushing teeth, going to bathroom, comb hair or whatever and then went to bed at 11:15 - 11:30 and THEN the medical people said the time of death occured between say 12:00 - 2:00 AM
well HOUSTON we have a problem
because it would be a tough sell to the police if the kids went to bed at 1130
and time of death was tooooo close to the time they went to bed.
the longer the time before the body was found the better for the
killer/cover-uppers
its plain as day the parents are involved to high heaven, the whole thing stinks
The reason the lies about the pineapple are because somebody (one of the parents ) knew that the autopsy would show the pineapple and the medical people would be able to figure out a pretty accurate time of death.
And so, if the parents said the kids had pineapple at say 10:45 or 11:00
and then had to get ready for bed, brushing teeth, going to bathroom, comb hair or whatever and then went to bed at 11:15 - 11:30 and THEN the medical people said the time of death occured between say 12:00 - 2:00 AM
well HOUSTON we have a problem
because it would be a tough sell to the police if the kids went to bed at 1130
and time of death was tooooo close to the time they went to bed.
the longer the time before the body was found the better for the
killer/cover-uppers
its plain as day the parents are involved to high heaven, the whole thing stinks