AB's Involvement ptII

[bellyup]

So...we have a murder that occurs in the house,dismemberment going on in the bathroom and kitchen, removal and replacement of mattresses, all kinds of painting going on, and possibly a carpet being removed. Even if we take the earliest date that AB claims to have seen Zahra (which was Tusday), then he's asking us to believe that in the course of 4 days, he never once noticed anything amiss going on in this house. No questions about all the painting? No questions about a mattress being taken out and a new one brought in? No questions about the carpet in Zahra's room suddenly disappearing (assuming my assumptions about carpet are correct)? No showers being taken by him for 4 days? No idea that anyone carried a corpse or body parts off for disposal in the "company vehicle" he drives? No idea there was blood on the console of his company vehicle, even though he obviously drove it to work on Wed, Fri and Saturday afternoon?
IMO, of course.

I don't think we KNOW that dismemberment took place in the bathroom and kitchen, do we? Those are EBs claims but I haven't seen LE state that they have evidence that this actually happened where and how she said it did. also, I haven't seen any claims that anything was freshly painted though if it were ture that it was EB could easily say she was "decorating" Zahra's room and repainted... oh by the way her mattress was old so I tossed it . We got a new one from a friend that is much newer.

The swabs taken from the car are indicated as possible blood on the SW, have we gotten confirmation that they were blood (I might have missed it) and how large were they ?

I found blood on my wall in the laundry room the other day. I have pale yellow walls and it was a pretty good amount. Hand sized and smeared. It had been there for at least a bit because it was completely dry. I suspect it likely came from one of the dogs because of height it was at (though I still don't know which was bleeding and why) . I was PO'ed when I saw it and thought "that's never going to come out, going to have to get the touch up paint". I grabbed a rag to see what I could get off ......... and as it all wiped perfectly clean I thought "Wow. Wow." Zahra popped into my head. I was SHOCKED how easily it wiped right off.

I had more here, but it got too graphic and I couldn't post it. But I don't think there would be a lot of "spatter". Since the blood is no longer pumping and likely had been drained (gulp I can't stand that thought) clean up may have been far more easy than any of us would suspect.

 

[ynotdivein]

butwhatif: Where exactly did you read or learn that, "Using contractions is indicative of honesty whereas not using contractions is indicative of deception"?

I didn't want to quote your whole post b/c of it's length.

Hi salvarenga :wave:

I'm curious about this subject too so I did some poking around. So far haven't found anything very detailed that's specific to contractions, but have located a couple of informative and IMO reliable links with good information that might be of interest.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/fbi/decep_detect_01.pdf

This one is by Joe Navarro, a 25-year FBI veteran behavioral analyst, who writes for Psychology Today. From this article: "Unfortunately, no particular nonverbal or verbal cue evinces deception.4"

However, he does state: "Research shows that guilty people often avoid using contractions.24 Instead of saying, “It wasn’t me,” liars will say, “It was not me,” to ensure the listener clearly hears the denial."

I like this article as he links thoroughly to the research support for his statements.

I also found interesting information at Mark McClish's website:

http://www.statementanalysis.com/

McClish is a former US Marshal who teaches interviewing techniques and wrote the book I Know You Are Lying. I didn't see anything there about contractions specifically but didn't spend a great deal of time looking.

Hope that helps--or at least provides some good reading material! :dance:

 

[passionflower]

another thought I have, IMO..........
this house (of horrors) and ALL places this evil COUPLE
lived in...........are very small sq. foot wise.
Like the apt, the trailer and house........
sorry but you can hear someone sneeze!
No way AB never heard his daughter crying, etc.
He saw, heard and KNEW EXactly what was going on
in the last 2 years!
IMO

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

If those blood spatters were obvious to the naked eye, I highly doubt that LE would have held off on searching the home immediately. I also do not find it reasonable that they would have left a bloody crime scene unguarded for several weeks while they got their warrant.

Hence it is only reasonable for me to conclude that the blood spatter was NOT ovbious to the naked eye and only revealed itself to LE when exposed to the ultraviolet light arrays during the comprehensive search of the home.

I cannot fault AB for blood spatter not being obvious to him when it wasn't obvious to LE until special equipment was involved.

Not saying AB isn't involved. Simply saying that for me, the blood spatter sheds no additional light on whether AB had to have known or not.

That's what I was first thinking too, tl. But then I thought that the attempts at cleaning up would have smeared and degraded the original pattern of the blood spatters to the point that a specialist in that area would be useless. But since they called in the spatter specialist I thought there must have been some evidence that was still unadulterated.

But I am often wrong and the nature of what happened to Zahra in this case seems to have further clouded my befuddled brain . . .

 

[KikiWanBaniki]

WRT the 'honesty-in-contradiction' theory--

I find this portion of the discussion very interesting; my 16 yo daughter and I were discussing Zahra the other day, and my daughter actually suggested that idea to me. I'd never really thought about it before!

But, as she (and some of you guys have) pointed out, it totally makes sense IMO that if you ask several different people about the same event, some degree of inconsistency is absolutely going to occur between the stories as a result of perception, if each individual or at least some, are telling the truth. Or as my daughter so eloquently put it, "Sometimes the inconsistencies are what really show the facts. People who are telling the truth aren't trying to get their stories straight, so they're gonna make more mistakes than people who are lying." Out of the mouths of babes...

I'm not saying that discrepancies can't also reveal lies sometimes, I'm just agreeing with others here who've stated that sometimes it's the other way around.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I don't think there was obvious signs (ie; blood spatter,etc.) in that house. No way no how. If that were the case LE would have been all over that house from the giddyup. They let the house sit there for AT LEAST many days but I think it was more like two weeks before they tore it apart. They also allowed AB access to the house during that time and it was NOT SECURE. Had there been any evidence easily seen by the naked eye that would NOT have happened.

Also, we don't know that bone chips and tissue WERE found in the tub. That information is purely EB's claims that those things MAY be found in the tub drains / etc.

bellyup, I don't understand why the house wasn't immediately sealed. (But I wondered at the same fact in the Cummings and Anthony cases, too.) I think at the beginning LE's major priority must have been trying to locate Zahra and they expended all their manpower on that until they realized everything was much more serious than an abduction and that the house needed more than a quick look-through. I have no idea about how thorough their initial visit was but I imagine they were pretty distracted with the confusion of the fire, the ransom note and then the possible kidnapping. Viewing the house as a possible violent crime scene was probably (and unfortunately) not hitting their radar screen right away.

About the bone chips in the bathtub ~ I don't know exactly where that statement originated but it was referred to by Ron Martinelli in the piece that I linked. But you are right; a lot of the things EB has said are true and a lot of them aren't.

 

[dar107]

another thought I have, IMO..........
this house (of horrors) and ALL places this evil COUPLE
lived in...........are very small sq. foot wise.
Like the apt, the trailer and house........
sorry but you can hear someone sneeze!
No way AB never heard his daughter crying, etc.
He saw, heard and KNEW EXactly what was going on
in the last 2 years!
IMO

Well, apparently, IMO AB sees no evil, hears no evil, speaks no evil. He just is so darn clueless and has a whole book full of excuses for it. uke: :furious: :banghead:

PRAYING FOR JUSTICE FOR ZAHRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[vjlaw]

Well, apparently, AB sees no evil, hears no evil, speaks no evil. He just is so darn clueless and has a whole book full of excuses for it. uke: :furious: :banghead:

PRAYING FOR JUSTICE FOR ZAHRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yup, surefire way not to be held accountable for his responsibility as a father. jmo

 

[Allusonz]

Well, apparently, AB sees no evil, hears no evil, speaks no evil. He just is so darn clueless and has a whole book full of excuses for it. uke: :furious: :banghead:

PRAYING FOR JUSTICE FOR ZAHRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am a bit confused. Are there links to excuses AB has said? or are these opinions of posters? TIA

 

[westsidefox64]

I am a bit confused. Are there links to excuses AB has said? or are these opinions of posters? TIA

I hate to speak for everyone but I think its the difference in the way we each are perseaving things. JMO

 

[dar107]

I am a bit confused. Are there links to excuses AB has said? or are these opinions of posters? TIA

Well I went back to edit my post so it says IMO, I could probably find some links to refer to some dumb excuses he has, IMO like hmmm, my daughter is hitting puberty and brooding and never comes out less she wants something...his excuse for not knowing when he saw her last, but I just don't have the heart for it today. Dealing with my own loss and trying to keep up with Zahra's forum has been hard and sad this week.

 

[bellyup]

bellyup, I don't understand why the house wasn't immediately sealed. (But I wondered at the same fact in the Cummings and Anthony cases, too.) I think at the beginning LE's major priority must have been trying to locate Zahra and they expended all their manpower on that until they realized everything was much more serious than an abduction and that the house needed more than a quick look-through. I have no idea about how thorough their initial visit was but I imagine they were pretty distracted with the confusion of the fire, the ransom note and then the possible kidnapping. Viewing the house as a possible violent crime scene was probably (and unfortunately) not hitting their radar screen right away.

The problem IMO with that theory is that the announced it was a homicide only three DAYS after she was reported missing (Oct 12th) . On Oct 15th they entered the house with AB and IIRC spent several hours in the house (this is when they removed the mattress).

AFTER this event the house still was not secure and had been released. AB was free to go there if he so chose (and he did at least once to get belongings).

There is NO WAY there was evidence that was clearly visable and I'm sure LE was looking at that point for ANY sign whatsoever (remember, they had already declared it a homicide investigation) . LE would not have allowed the home to remain open and given AB access to it had they found a single shred that led them to believe she was murdered or dismembered there.

Do we have confirmation FROM LE that any of the items removed (ie; dry wall, drains,etc.) even HAVE any evidence of dismemberment from the home? I know it's been noted that a blood spatter expert was called in, but could that have been because they were NOT finding what EB had told them was there ? ? ?

BASICALLY right now the only evidence we have is that Zahra *WAS* indeed dismembered and that EB had obvious knowledge of it.
Everything else as to where or when it happened or who did it or what caused her death.... Is ALL coming from EB and I'm not trusting much of what she says at all. Yes, she did lead them to the body (parts). However, I don't think this means she's being truthful.... it was to HER benefit to do so. She's not going to do anything out of the goodness of her *cough* heart. Of course she's going to go with a story that benefits HER and makes her guilty of the lesser crimes.

As far as what the police removed ... (ie the walls, floor, piping) I'm not sure they did that because they actually found or saw something. They did it based on EB's claims that they WOULD find something in those areas. (if anyone is following the Skleton boys case - that father has claimed he killed the boys, he left them at a cabin, no wait he left just dumped them off somewhere, no wait I didn't kill them at all).

I do not question for a minute that LE has gotten some (if not all) of the test results back on the drains, walls, etc. Only they know if what EB said would be there is actually there. I am concerned about this part probably more than anything else right now.

If it's NOT there .... it makes sense that they are stumbling for charges. EB wasn't truthful. They have no evidence of the dismemberment at the house. They do not know who did it , when or where. They have no cause of death, no murder weapon, and no clear motive. They NEED more information to press further charges.

If it *IS* there ... they have proof of the dismemberment at the very least. Likely they can determine WHEN it took place. It's possible that the reported latex gloves may even point to WHO did this. It's UNLIKELY that they will ever determine a COD or find a murder weapon. This brings them MUCH closer to making some charges...........
and I'm sick when I say I don't think we aren't seeing it head that way.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I don't think we KNOW that dismemberment took place in the bathroom and kitchen, do we? Those are EBs claims but I haven't seen LE state that they have evidence that this actually happened where and how she said it did. also, I haven't seen any claims that anything was freshly painted though if it were ture that it was EB could easily say she was "decorating" Zahra's room and repainted... oh by the way her mattress was old so I tossed it . We got a new one from a friend that is much newer.

The swabs taken from the car are indicated as possible blood on the SW, have we gotten confirmation that they were blood (I might have missed it) and how large were they ?

I found blood on my wall in the laundry room the other day. I have pale yellow walls and it was a pretty good amount. Hand sized and smeared. It had been there for at least a bit because it was completely dry. I suspect it likely came from one of the dogs because of height it was at (though I still don't know which was bleeding and why) . I was PO'ed when I saw it and thought "that's never going to come out, going to have to get the touch up paint". I grabbed a rag to see what I could get off ......... and as it all wiped perfectly clean I thought "Wow. Wow." Zahra popped into my head. I was SHOCKED how easily it wiped right off.

I had more here, but it got too graphic and I couldn't post it. But I don't think there would be a lot of "spatter". Since the blood is no longer pumping and likely had been drained (gulp I can't stand that thought) clean up may have been far more easy than any of us would suspect.

BBM

WE don't have evidence of anything. LE does, we don't. So we are working on logic and whatever information we are given. I am basing my assumptions on pictures taken from inside the home, and the evidence seized in the search warrants. 1+1=2 to me. If others don't agree with my math, that's fine by me.

So...do I have "evidence" that Zahra was dismembered in the bathroom? No, I don't. What I do have are claims to that effect by EB, pictures of the bathroom after LE were done with it, and search warrants that clearly state that LE removed the drain traps from both the bathroom and kitchen. I also have my own intelligence which tells me that the logical place to dismember someone would be in a bath tub. So, in my mind...1 + 1 = 2.

I also have no "evidence" that rooms were painted recently. But LE seized 6(?, forget exact number) cans of paint from the home. I can also tell from pictures of the bathroom, that LE went to alot of trouble to peel away the latex paint covering the tiles there. I assume they didn't do that just because they needed to occupy themselves with some busy work. So, my logic tells me that, at the very least, the bathroom was recently painted.

As for the mattress and boxsprings that were removed, possible carpet being removed from her bedroom, possible paint job in there also...I doubt EB would be able to explain that away to AB. Where does she tell him his daughter is while she's doing all that? Sleeping on bare subflooring in a freshly painted room, thick with fumes, while suffering a "stomache bug" and being "broody" from her period?

Can you explain away a few of these things? Maybe. But taken as a whole, my personal opinion is that the ONLY way Adam Baker didn't know what was going on in that house was if, in fact, he didn't live in that house.

All just my math and MOO, and probably the last comment I'm going to make with respect to what Adam Baker did and didn't know, because my mind is very clearly made up on this point.

 

[Clue Hopper]

I'm in need of feedback please. Something just came to mind when I was taking my sheets out of the washer. There was a comforter and pillows found in the Camry. Could that be the supposed comforter that Elisa said held remains? or could that be Adam's dog house?

I remember when I was younger my neighbor had a camper on the back of his truck he had His name's Dog house written on both sides of it. I remember asking why? He told me that when his wife was mad he had best leave. So he would go sleep in the camper. Sometimes it was for a few days.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I'm in need of feedback please. Something just came to mind when I was taking my sheets out of the washer. There was a comforter and pillows found in the Camry. Could that be the supposed comforter that Elisa said held remains? or could that be Adam's dog house?

I remember when I was younger my neighbor had a camper on the back of his truck he had His name's Dog house written on both sides of it. I remember asking why? He told me that when his wife was mad he had best leave. So he would go sleep in the camper. Sometimes it was for a few days.

BBM

No, IIRC, pillows and comforter were retrieved from AB "company vehicle". The comforter EB claims was used in the disposal was, according to her, placed in a dumpster somewhere.

 

[Clue Hopper]

BBM

No, IIRC, those were also retrieved from AB "company vehicle".

So sleeping in the so called dog house could be plausible. (I'm not saying this is truth.)

I also wonder if it was the said comforter.

Ugh! this case. I can't believe I'm doing laundry and thinking these things.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

The problem IMO with that theory is that the announced it was a homicide only three DAYS after she was reported missing (Oct 12th) . On Oct 15th they entered the house with AB and IIRC spent several hours in the house (this is when they removed the mattress).

AFTER this event the house still was not secure and had been released. AB was free to go there if he so chose (and he did at least once to get belongings).

There is NO WAY there was evidence that was clearly visable and I'm sure LE was looking at that point for ANY sign whatsoever (remember, they had already declared it a homicide investigation) . LE would not have allowed the home to remain open and given AB access to it had they found a single shred that led them to believe she was murdered or dismembered there.

Do we have confirmation FROM LE that any of the items removed (ie; dry wall, drains,etc.) even HAVE any evidence of dismemberment from the home? I know it's been noted that a blood spatter expert was called in, but could that have been because they were NOT finding what EB had told them was there ? ? ?

BASICALLY right now the only evidence we have is that Zahra *WAS* indeed dismembered and that EB had obvious knowledge of it.
Everything else as to where or when it happened or who did it or what caused her death.... Is ALL coming from EB and I'm not trusting much of what she says at all. Yes, she did lead them to the body (parts). However, I don't think this means she's being truthful.... it was to HER benefit to do so. She's not going to do anything out of the goodness of her *cough* heart. Of course she's going to go with a story that benefits HER and makes her guilty of the lesser crimes.

As far as what the police removed ... (ie the walls, floor, piping) I'm not sure they did that because they actually found or saw something. They did it based on EB's claims that they WOULD find something in those areas. (if anyone is following the Skleton boys case - that father has claimed he killed the boys, he left them at a cabin, no wait he left just dumped them off somewhere, no wait I didn't kill them at all).

I do not question for a minute that LE has gotten some (if not all) of the test results back on the drains, walls, etc. Only they know if what EB said would be there is actually there. I am concerned about this part probably more than anything else right now.

If it's NOT there .... it makes sense that they are stumbling for charges. EB wasn't truthful. They have no evidence of the dismemberment at the house. They do not know who did it , when or where. They have no cause of death, no murder weapon, and no clear motive. They NEED more information to press further charges.

If it *IS* there ... they have proof of the dismemberment at the very least. Likely they can determine WHEN it took place. It's possible that the reported latex gloves may even point to WHO did this. It's UNLIKELY that they will ever determine a COD or find a murder weapon. This brings them MUCH closer to making some charges...........
and I'm sick when I say I don't think we aren't seeing it head that way.

Good points ~ all, bellyup! I defer to your logic. And thanks too, as I do want to still be able to think that Zahra's own father didn't betray her.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

So sleeping in the so called dog house could be plausible. (I'm not saying this is truth.)

I also wonder if it was the said comforter.

Ugh! this case. I can't believe I'm doing laundry and thinking these things.

Could be. I've never been able to get a handle on why pillows, comforter, 2 toothbrushes and 3 passports were found in the "company work vehicle". I have wondered if AB and EB might have slept in the truck due to everything that was going on in the house, maybe they were going to try to skip town with the passports. But I honestly have no answers for that.

 

[thisjusthurtsmyheart]

Unfortunately, I think you are right about everything. But, has it been verified that EB DID receive money? I know AF said so, but then that is just hearsay. I would be very curious to know if the guy in London really sent money. Cause no way was he sending it just to talk to a woman. Even a woman who was posing as her much younger and more attractive daughter.

I believe that it was said at one point in time that LE was going to suppeona bank statements that were at a bank inside of Wal-Mart. I dont know if they ever found anything but I do know that they were looking into monetary transactions. Also, I couldn't figure out the Wal-Mart thing but then I thought about the Wal-Mart close to me has a Wood Forest Bank inside of it and they give second chance checking. I know that that is for the people (no offense) that can not open a regular checking account on their own. It happens sometimes to good people. I understand that but with all the charges that she incurred from the bad check charges she wasnt going to pass through tele-check. So it makes sense that she would go through that facility. If that is what it is that brought her there in the first place. I do not know exactly what they found in those records but I am assuming that it had to do with the 10k that EB was supposed to have gotten from the man that shall not be named. I have also attached a link to the MSM that I found it on.

Sorry it took so long to get back on this...work can be a real bear.

http://www.wcnc.com/news/zahra-baker/Cousin-Visits-Elisa-Baker-in-Jail-106915208.html

 

[thisjusthurtsmyheart]

The problem IMO with that theory is that the announced it was a homicide only three DAYS after she was reported missing (Oct 12th) . On Oct 15th they entered the house with AB and IIRC spent several hours in the house (this is when they removed the mattress).

AFTER this event the house still was not secure and had been released. AB was free to go there if he so chose (and he did at least once to get belongings).

There is NO WAY there was evidence that was clearly visable and I'm sure LE was looking at that point for ANY sign whatsoever (remember, they had already declared it a homicide investigation) . LE would not have allowed the home to remain open and given AB access to it had they found a single shred that led them to believe she was murdered or dismembered there.

Do we have confirmation FROM LE that any of the items removed (ie; dry wall, drains,etc.) even HAVE any evidence of dismemberment from the home? I know it's been noted that a blood spatter expert was called in, but could that have been because they were NOT finding what EB had told them was there ? ? ?

BASICALLY right now the only evidence we have is that Zahra *WAS* indeed dismembered and that EB had obvious knowledge of it.
Everything else as to where or when it happened or who did it or what caused her death.... Is ALL coming from EB and I'm not trusting much of what she says at all. Yes, she did lead them to the body (parts). However, I don't think this means she's being truthful.... it was to HER benefit to do so. She's not going to do anything out of the goodness of her *cough* heart. Of course she's going to go with a story that benefits HER and makes her guilty of the lesser crimes.

As far as what the police removed ... (ie the walls, floor, piping) I'm not sure they did that because they actually found or saw something. They did it based on EB's claims that they WOULD find something in those areas. (if anyone is following the Skleton boys case - that father has claimed he killed the boys, he left them at a cabin, no wait he left just dumped them off somewhere, no wait I didn't kill them at all).

I do not question for a minute that LE has gotten some (if not all) of the test results back on the drains, walls, etc. Only they know if what EB said would be there is actually there. I am concerned about this part probably more than anything else right now.

If it's NOT there .... it makes sense that they are stumbling for charges. EB wasn't truthful. They have no evidence of the dismemberment at the house. They do not know who did it , when or where. They have no cause of death, no murder weapon, and no clear motive. They NEED more information to press further charges.

If it *IS* there ... they have proof of the dismemberment at the very least. Likely they can determine WHEN it took place. It's possible that the reported latex gloves may even point to WHO did this. It's UNLIKELY that they will ever determine a COD or find a murder weapon. This brings them MUCH closer to making some charges...........
and I'm sick when I say I don't think we aren't seeing it head that way.

I have read the search warrants and it appears to me that LE has great reason to believe that there was blood evidence. I cannot say that they called a blood spatter analyst in for no reason. In my opinion they probably had no idea when they put luminol all over the house it was going to light up like a christmas tree. At that point they probably knew that the forensics in this case were gonna be difficult and they were gonna need the help of an expert in dealing with and having certifications in that area or field. Which to me means that there was such an enormous amount of blood loss or transfer that they did not know which way or where it came from. I am going to link the page for you to look at the warrant. In one of the warrants it is revealed that they took 33 blood swabs and numerous tissue scrapings. Along with many other pieces of evidence. It also states in the warrants that they removed tissue and hair from drains. They also got the gloves from the house and trash bags too. So suffice it to say it is safe to assume that the dismemberment did in fact happen in that house (of horrors).

http://charlotte.news14.com/content...-reveal-possible-sexual-assault-in-baker-case (this is the entire article, scroll all the way down for the pages of warrants and it is the blood spatter is #13)

I am not by any means saying that I at all change my mind about EB but I do think that in every lie there is those truths also. So with that being said even if she told some truths that eventually led to the info that LE wanted to know then they will definitely go easier on her then they will AB if he just stood around with that freakishly zoned out look on his face...faking the entire "I love her so much routine". She will most likely get a plea deal and he will most likely get more time then she will for rolling over on her "would be" husband. I can bet that she has probably already got a plea deal in the works which may be why they let go of LD her appointed lawyer. I am almost sure of it.

In my personal opinion, if they can't prove what the manner of death is then they cannot prove who may have had anything to do with it. I hate to say this but my fear is that the only thing that we will know is the manner of cover up and concealment. We may never know how this beautiful child died. That is wrong on so many levels and that means that there may never be charges brought against the perpetrator/s of this horrendous crime. But at least someone will stand trial the desecration of a corpse and concealment of a crime. There has to be some jail time for that right?

Some not all is my personal opinion....but I think its good anyway!:blushing: