Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021 #2

[ilovewings]

Isnt the big question who put live bullets in the gun???

 

[Thinker22]

It is not possible to check a revolver like this to see if it is clear unless the cylinder is spun.

Actually, it IS possible to check. at 3:59 in the linked video it shows how to.

Big thanks to whomever posted this video in the first thread. I learned a lot from it. My only Colt revolver is a somewhat newer double action with a non-fixed cylinder.

 

[Arkay]

@RANCH that's a great find, AB's history of gun use on TV and movies. And a good question. I wonder if his prior use of weaponry in production would count for or against him in this situation?

@gitana1 @PrairieWind
I wish you two could hold a mock court here on WS! I would be fascinated.

 

[PrairieWind]

I have a question. If in a future civil or criminal case evidence is presented that shows Alec Baldwin had personally checked a firearm was safe or someone showed him it was safe during the filming of previous movies, can that be used to show he knew the importance of personally knowing a gun was safe for him to handle?

Link below to IMFDB showing films where he has used firearms.

Alec Baldwin - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games

I think it really depends. If I am the Plaintiff's attorney, I am absolutely going to make that case. Whether the Judge allows it or not, who knows. It really comes down to what is the standard in the industry. And what I am hearing these last few days is that there maybe isn't a real standard. In the last couple of days I have heard or read experienced armorers and directors give widely different statement about what is supposed to happen. If there was an actually standard where an armorer showed the actor that the gun is not loaded, etc, and that didn't happen here, as an experienced actor, I would argue AB should have not accepted the gun. If that is not the case and the actor is generally expected to accept the armorer's assurance, then it would be a tough case to make.

 

[gitana1]

MOO

I totally agree! And I still can’t understand why someone would be pulling the trigger during a rehearsal? Method acting?

MOO

They really pull the trigger during the shoot. So they have to practice doing that. And making sure the shot lines up with the camera. That’s not method acting. It’s just regular acting.

 

[RANCH]

'Rust' assistant director admits he didn’t check all rounds in gun before fatal shooting

There are more new details in this article than what is below, but it would be over 10% if I put it here.

According to a crew member, who asked not to be identified because they were not authorized to speak on record, the shot being rehearsed at the time of the shooting was intended to be a close-up that would show Baldwin’s hand and holster and look down the barrel of the revolver.

According to an earlier affidavit filed by the Sheriff’s Office, Halls allegedly yelled “cold gun,” meaning the weapon was not loaded, as he was handing it to Baldwin. But the crew member remembers Gutierrez Reed as being the one to have pronounced the gun “cold.”

Filming a closeup down the barrel would most likely require the use of dummy rounds that had real bullets in them so that they would be visible to the viewer.

Was that necessary during a rehearsal? No. JMO.

 

[gitana1]

I think there are ways so that it doesn’t get muddied. I agree with the practice of the armorer, AD and actors involved double-checking it in each other’s presence prior to it being put in an actor’s hands.

But I don’t understand why real guns or bullets were on site to begin with.

I don’t either. They’re not supposed to be.

That being said, again, the actor cannot be responsible for prop safety unless they’re an expert assigned to that. Otherwise they’d be responsible to be a safety expert for every prop they use.

For example, let’s say they’re harnessed into a rig that carries them over the audience at some sort of show. The rig fails. They drop. They’re miraculously un-injured but they fall on an audience member’s head, and that person dies.

Is the actor responsible for making sure the harness was safe prior to using it? No.

The only way they’d be responsible is if they grossly deviated from how they were supposed to use it. Example? Baldwin decides to put his own “blanks” into the gun and practice with that. He injures someone. THEN he would be responsible.

Bottom line- not everyone is a gun owner. Not everyone is required to be an expert as to gun safety. Even if they are handed one to use. Moreover, the standard rules for gun safety do not apply on sets all the time- like never pointing a weapon at someone.

 

[Luna20]

Isnt the big question who put live bullets in the gun???

YES in my opinion, as well as why was there any live ammo anywhere…period.

 

[Satchie]

Actually, it IS possible to check. at 3:59 in the linked video it shows how to.

Big thanks to whomever posted this video in the first thread. I learned a lot from it. My only Colt revolver is a somewhat newer double action with a non-fixed cylinder.

So, although you yourself own guns and have probably handled many, it seems this particular type of gun is complicated and unusual, and requires special knowledge on how to handle and load safely.

That suggests to me that it's not reasonable to expect that an ordinary actor/AD, (even one with a basic training in safely handling a modern shotgun for hunting), should have known how to safely check this gun, and especially, how to check whether the gun was absolutely not loaded with any live bullets...

 

[gitana1]

But that's an industry standard, not a legal one. IANAL but I am of the opinion for justice to be served, Baldwin will be culpable.

Industry standards often determine whether someone is negligent. They’re rigorously set up for a reason.

Baldwin is simply not culpable here. He is not the safety expert. It may seem like common sense to gun owners. But again, prop guns aren’t treated the same as guns in the real world.

It was not supposed to be loaded with live rounds. Live rounds weren’t supposed to be on set. It wasn’t even supposed to be loaded with blanks. The weapons master and prop master were responsible for ensuring that that was the case and Baldwin had every reason to be able to rely on their expertise before handling the prop, without checking it himself. Because he was not the expert in gun safety.

Not everyone even knows how to check the chamber. Or to tell the difference between a live round or a blank, which was not the issue here, but it proves the point.

Baldwin would be culpable when it comes to negligence if he grossly deviated from what he was supposed to do. Like I mentioned before, doing something like making his own decision to load the gun himself, for example.

Or, if he played a role in the hiring of the unprofessional prop and weapons masters.

I expect he will be named in any lawsuit. But as producer. But if he is named as negligent for his handling of the gun, he will not be found liable, ultimately. Because legally, he’s not liable.

 

[RANCH]

Questions I have about this film production.

Who was responsible for hiring HGR as head armorer for this film?

Did they know that she only had one prior film credit?

Was she paid a prevailing wage or was she paid a much lesser amount?

How much actual on the job experience with firearms on film sets does she have and did the person who hired her look at any job references?

 

[Thinker22]

This BBC article is the first I've seen where the make/model of the gun is identified.

Police identified the firearm shot by Mr Baldwin as an antique-edition F LLI Pietta Long Colt .45 revolver.

Alec Baldwin shooting: Sheriff describes film set 'complacency'

 

[gitana1]

I would disagree with this a bit. Baldwin, as a producer may or may not have some liability personally, but probably not. But he very well may have some liability personally as the one who fired the gun. Yes, I agree an actor working with a production company should be able to rely upon professionals on the set regarding firearms and rely on their assurance that is a "cold gun." However, an individual is always responsible for their own torts, separate from the torts of others. As an experienced actor, and one who had handled firearms, did he have a heightened duty to check this gun? Perhaps. But it is also widely accepted that an actor does not point any gun at anyone and pull the trigger. Why he did so is a mystery. I have no doubt that he did indeed believe this gun was "cold." However, the gun never should have been pointed at anyone, let alone the trigger pulled while doing so. If I was an attorney representing a victim, I would sue the production company, the armorer individually, the assistant director individually, whoever brought the live ammunition to the set, and AB individually. I may not be able to get an award against AB, but I could keep it in court. As for criminal liability, I don't see any criminal action on AB's part.

I disagree. He’s simply not responsible for the safety of props unless he handled it outside of normal instructions. He was expected to practice with the prop and guns indeed ARE pointed at real people on sets.

There’s no personal liability for his use of the gun unless he did something weird like load the gun himself with a live round. OR unless the set adopted a rule that applied to him that he broke.

I have zero doubt.

His responsibility as producer is a different issue, however.

 

[Luna20]

AB may be called into question for not being more cautious in his hiring of 2 individuals who have reason to pause. Her-a novice and the AD being fired for safety issues on a previous film. I think I would have instinctively checked myself. Was he trying to cut cost by hiring them?

If there was a surgeon in the OR that was previously fired for safety issues I would think those in the new OR would be cautiously aware.

 

[gitana1]

AB may be called into question for not being more cautious in his hiring of 2 individuals who have reason to pause. Her-a novice and the AD being fired for safety issues on a previous film. I think I would have instinctively checked myself. Was he trying to cut cost by hiring them?

If there was a surgeon in the OR that was previously fired for safety issues I would think those in the new OR would be cautiously aware.

They were trying to cut costs and several people walked off set as a result of safety issues. It was a mess all around.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

‘Rust’ armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed tied to friend's death

Rookie armorer on Baldwin’s ‘Rust’ set tied to friend’s fatal crash


An insurance company for the rookie “Rust” armorer in charge of weapons when Alec Baldwin accidentally shot dead his cinematographer reportedly paid her close friend’s family $50,000 last year so she couldn’t be sued after he was killed in a drunken motorcycle crash.

Hannah Gutierrez-Reed’s friend Tyler Dyer wrecked his motorcycle in Arizona after attending a party with her and her boyfriend Aaron Butcher in August last year, TMZ reports.

more at link

Clearly, HGR doesn't mind at all breaking serious laws / rules. This goes straight to character.

 

[Luna20]

Somebody

Anyone know who sb is?

 

[Satchie]

AB may be called into question for not being more cautious in his hiring of 2 individuals who have reason to pause. Her-a novice and the AD being fired for safety issues on a previous film. I think I would have instinctively checked myself. Was he trying to cut cost by hiring them?

If there was a surgeon in the OR that was previously fired for safety issues I would think those in the new OR would be cautiously aware.

I notice from IMBD, Dave Halls has worked in films as an AD for 25 years, he's definiteley not a novice in the industry like the Armorer. I can't count all the films he's worked on that are listed there, probably a hundred.

Also he has many film credits from 2021 and 2020, whereas the Freedom's Path film he was fired from was filming in 2019. So he seems to have worked on 6 or more productions since that incident.

I think it would be useful to know exactly what the incident and error was, before linking it to this one.

ETA Freedom's Path filming two years ago: Local studio shooting civil war feature film ‘Freedom’s Path’ in Fayetteville

 

[Dotta]

Anyone know who sb is?

Not me!!!!
I live on another continent

 

[DI_Isokawa]

This BBC article is the first I've seen where the make/model of the gun is identified.

Police identified the firearm shot by Mr Baldwin as an antique-edition F LLI Pietta Long Colt .45 revolver.

Alec Baldwin shooting: Sheriff describes film set 'complacency'

If correct, that is a side loading weapon and the YouTube video I posted some time back shows how it is loaded, unloaded, and checked.