Alec Baldwin fired prop gun, killing 1 on movie set, Oct 2021

[WillieMac]

The cart with guns was supposedly outside because of covid protocols. Which really doesn't make sense to me, because cart is not going to infect anyone with covid. So why would it have to be outside?

Interesting if true. Link to source?

 

[jjenny]

Interesting if true. Link to source?

Alec Baldwin Was Told Gun in Fatal Shooting on Set Was Safe, Officials Say - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

 

[WillieMac]

Guns are not supposed to be left un-attended.

Agreed! Did AB & the AD really not realize that the gun the AD declared to be Cold & that AB fired had been left alone before they continued using it without in fact verifying that it was Cold?

 

[WillieMac]

Alec Baldwin Was Told Gun in Fatal Shooting on Set Was Safe, Officials Say - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Thank you. I'd missed that tidbit. A requirement to leave the guns on a tray outside must have made it incredibly ly difficult for an Armorer who was also tasked with Prop Master Assistant duties to maintain watch over all of the weapons on site.

 

[10ofRods]

I have seen/read a lot of interviews with directors, producers, prop managers and armorers since this shooting, all saying what is "supposed" to happen. And they all seem to be a little different. So I am guessing that there is a general protocol to be followed. I don't know if that is in writing somewhere or not. but given the different explanations, I am also guessing that how those rules are actually followed an applied varies greatly. You can have all the safety regulations in the world, but they wont do any good in they are not followed, by EVERY one, EVERY single time. We still don't know all the facts here, just beginning to find out some really. But clearly there were a lot of breakdowns by multiple people here.

It's in writing. I don't have time right now to go find it, but it's quite explicit and it is the protocol required by the Propmaster's Union. Further, non-union films are not usually released in the same manner as others - and I wonder, if this is indeed a Netflix thing, whether Netflix would ever touch it again, based purely on the union issue.

The upshot is that cast. members who will be handling prop guns must undergo training in advance, and of course, the rules are clear - never point at anyone you don't want to kill (just like any gun handling).

Shots directly at the camera must be done by a remote camera operator who is at least 50 feet away and plexi-glass must be in between them and the camera. The actor is still not supposed to point AT the camera person - but at the camera, which is behind plexiglass as well.

It is well known that "independent films" skip some of these protocols. But again, I doubt that the companies that financed this film would have been okay with the union members walking out over safety and the production continuing with scab labor.

At any rate, it's obvious the protocol wasn't followed...

 

[Lux et Veritas]

From the below NYT article (updated today):

In addition to Mr. (Larry) Zanoff, five other experts in the use of firearms on film or television sets said that it was against usual protocol for an assistant director to hand a gun to an actor. One of the experts, Mike Tristano, a veteran professional armorer based in Los Angeles, said that typical practice on a film set would be for the armorer to hand the gun to the actor and that the chain of events described in the affidavit struck him as a “red flag.”

Alec Baldwin Film Set Had Previous Accidental Gun Discharges, Crew Members Say

BBM

I knew it! The second I first read that AD Dave Halls - instead of the armorer - "grabbed a gun off the cart" and handed it to AB, it felt wrong, wrong, wrong and so dangerous. And that was before I read about DH's prior history over the years.

btw, where exactly was 'expert' armorer HGR when all this was going down?

 

[happyday]

"Rust" assistant director was fired from previous movie after gun incident injured crew member
The AD was fired on his last film for a firearm incident.
oh boy….

 

[10ofRods]

Disagree.The one who is hired and tasked with the sole job of fire arm safety is at fault.

So, you think that if a hospital hires a doctor who is actually incompetent (and not even licensed), the hospital has no liability?

I think whoever hired this young woman, who said publicly that she didn't think she knew how to do the job, is at fault way more than the young woman. She said she was "nervous" about being able to do the job:

Head armorer on Alec Baldwin movie 'Rust' was "nervous" about experience level before taking job

Now, I don't know about you, but I think the person who hires someone who isn't certain they can do such a dangerous job is at fault more than the person hired. And I think a jury. might well agree with me - which is why this will be a huge settlement and probably out of court. And it'll be interesting to see if the insurance is anywhere near adequate to the task of providing compensation to the victim's family in this case.

 

[Datchery]

We still don't know that Baldwin pointed the gun at anyone, or that he pulled the trigger. It may have been an accidental discharge.

Doesn't mean he was acting completely according to protocol, but makes a difference, IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

It doesn't take much time to give anyone basic gun safety training. There is no excuse not doing that with anyone handling a firearm anywhere. Not just on a film set. JMO.

The actors are supposed to be train pre-production (to follow all rules of gun safety - including checking to see whether there are live rounds in the gun). Either that didn't happen, or the actor didn't follow the protocol.

I don't believe for a minute that he was supposed to fire right at the camera, from close range, and without the protocols for that kind of shot.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Thank you. I'd missed that tidbit. A requirement to leave the guns on a tray outside must have made it incredibly ly difficult for an Armorer who was also tasked with Prop Master Assistant duties to maintain watch over all of the weapons on site.

Which goes back to the general unsafe atmosphere due to cutting corners to save money. So many failures that seemed to have started at the upper management level. MOO

 

[happyday]

BBM

I knew it! The second I first read that AD Dave Halls - instead of the armorer - "grabbed a gun off the cart" and handed it to AB, it felt wrong, wrong, wrong and so dangerous. And that was before I read about DH's prior history over the years.

btw, where exactly was 'expert' armorer HGR when all this was going down?

She was also serving as an assistant to the prop master so she could have been busy with that job.

 

[10ofRods]

We still don't know that Baldwin pointed the gun at anyone, or that he pulled the trigger. It may have been an accidental discharge.

Doesn't mean he was acting completely according to protocol, but makes a difference, IMO.

What is an accidental discharge? What could cause a Colt .45 to accidentally discharge? Is there really such a thing?

Negligence is the only way a gun gets fired when it ought not to. But if you can find some examples somewhere, I would absolutely read them.

At any rate, despite all the crew talking about this incident, no one has said that the vintage Colt had a faulty trigger. But it did have a LIVE ROUND inside of it, which is human error.

 

[Dotta]

Dbm

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

We still don't know that Baldwin pointed the gun at anyone, or that he pulled the trigger. It may have been an accidental discharge.

Doesn't mean he was acting completely according to protocol, but makes a difference, IMO.

Per the witness who survived the shooting, he was practicing drawing his gun and pointed it towards the camera.

Alec Baldwin shooting: Actor was practicing drawing gun when it discharged - CNN

 

[RANCH]

We still don't know that Baldwin pointed the gun at anyone, or that he pulled the trigger. It may have been an accidental discharge.

Doesn't mean he was acting completely according to protocol, but makes a difference, IMO.

Are you saying that Alec Baldwin may have dropped the gun and it fired? Or something else?

 

[PrairieWind]

The actors are supposed to be train pre-production (to follow all rules of gun safety - including checking to see whether there are live rounds in the gun). Either that didn't happen, or the actor didn't follow the protocol.

I don't believe for a minute that he was supposed to fire right at the camera, from close range, and without the protocols for that kind of shot.

This is part of the confusion I am hearing the last few days. I am hearing armorers and prop people saying different things. Some have said actors are not allowed to do anything with the gun. One I heard said they do not seek to "train" actors. This is something that may have to change. Perhaps actors that handle firearms should be required to obtained separate training with firearms and then when handed a firearm on the set, they must themselves double check for safety. I see resistance from the armorers in that regard.

 

[Datchery]

Are you saying that Alec Baldwin may have dropped the gun and it fired? Or something else?

I'm going by this article: Alec Baldwin 'Rust' Movie Shooting Updates: "Super Unsafe" Accidental Gun Discharges Reported (decider.com)

The source refers to it as "3 accidental discharges," and the article describes it as "prop gun misfires." I'm not sure if either is the correct language, but neither of those phrases sound like what you would use if someone had deliberately pulled a trigger.

ETA that this is referring to the three earlier incidents, not this one. But it raises the possibility that there was something off about the guns.

 

[jjenny]

This is part of the confusion I am hearing the last few days. I am hearing armorers and prop people saying different things. Some have said actors are not allowed to do anything with the gun. One I heard said they do not seek to "train" actors. This is something that may have to change. Perhaps actors that handle firearms should be required to obtained separate training with firearms and then when handed a firearm on the set, they must themselves double check for safety. I see resistance from the armorers in that regard.

Yep, I've seen statements that actors aren't supposed to check the guns, that it should be done by the armorer prior to handing the gun to the actors.

 

[jjenny]

So, you think that if a hospital hires a doctor who is actually incompetent (and not even licensed), the hospital has no liability?

I think whoever hired this young woman, who said publicly that she didn't think she knew how to do the job, is at fault way more than the young woman. She said she was "nervous" about being able to do the job:

Head armorer on Alec Baldwin movie 'Rust' was "nervous" about experience level before taking job

Now, I don't know about you, but I think the person who hires someone who isn't certain they can do such a dangerous job is at fault more than the person hired. And I think a jury. might well agree with me - which is why this will be a huge settlement and probably out of court. And it'll be interesting to see if the insurance is anywhere near adequate to the task of providing compensation to the victim's family in this case.

She was talking about the previous movie, not this one. Apparently because the previous one went "really smoothly" as far as she was concerned, she wasn't any longer nervous about her level of experience.