Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #38

[alioop]

Couple of thoughts - if Allison is no longer a director of WOTS, and if WOTS is the entity that is hiring (and presumably racking up the bills) for the legal eagles, then it is to the advantage of her estate that she is NOT a director any more - her estate would then also be responsible for the legal bills. If the legal team are being hired by GBC directly (or NBC), then they would have to transfer the money out of WOTS (who I gather owned the house) into their personal names - and that would invoke all sorts of tax implications. They could distribute the money as dividends to the directors of WOTS, but it would become taxable as personal income. If they kept it in WOTS and paid the legal bills out of there, then there is the question as to how to account for that expense as a legitimate business expense for WOTS.

I'm no accountant, obviously, but I wonder what they have up their sleeves in terms of getting the money OUT of the sale? And if they are honouring the share that belongs to Allison's brother, as well as Allison's estate?

Also, from a legal point of view, would Allison's share depend on her having been a director when the property was bought, or that she may not have been a director when the property was sold? Which would take priority in terms of her entitlement?

I would think that the client for the purposes of the defence legal fees is GBC and not any of his companies. I am sure that he would have personally signed a costs agreement with this lawyers. However how he finds these funds from assets that may be available to him is another matter. He needs lots of money fast and the sale of the house is the way to get it. I believe that he doesn't really care about the tax implications of getting money out of WOTS as that is low on his list of priorities and not an immediate problem as tax returns wouldn't have to be lodged until early 2014 for the current tax year ending 2013 for any sale done now.

Allison's directorship or being removed as a director does not affect her and now her estate's rights as a shareholder.

Does anyone have any idea if WOTS is the entity taking the wrap for the legal costs. Surely they can only be in GBC's name? As a mere 1 Trustee of 4, GBC would not be acting in the Trusts best interests. I don't think the other Trustees would allow this to happen. IMHO

As far as searches reveal, WOTS is owned by just GBC and Allison equally, having 1 share each and that they beneficially own these shares and not on trust. However, the WOTS itself as a legal entity may be the trustee of a trust in which Allison's family members have an interest. That trust hopefully will be properly documented.

Hi All

Just catching up after a few weeks away. This house sale issue is looking very unsavoury indeed.

Regarding the directorship of WOTS, depending upon how the company was structured, and what the percentage of shares Alisons owned, her estate maybe entitled to a seat on the board. Without a copy of the constitution of the company it would be impossible to theorise how it was structured as there are just too many possibilities.

However consider the following scenario - GBC and Alison owned 50% of WOTS each. Alisons shares vest in her estate upon her death and are controlled by the executor. A special general meeting can be called, subject to the rules of the company, and other directors can be appointed by a vote of shareholders.

This is a very simplistic scenario but not entirely out of the realm of possibility. If GBC owns more than 50% of the shares then he controls the vote, effectively controlling the company.

Company affairs can get very messy and complicated.

Totally agree Actus. As they appear by the search I have seen, your assumption that they own one each is correct. I think we will be seeing a new director appointed soon.

 

[alioop]

Keentoknow could you answer a couple of questions for me please. If GBC is meeting with his lawyers in remand, will they have a contact visit so they can sit at a table and look at documents together? Also if the lawyers have something for him to sign does the remand authorities have to give approval to him signing it.? What I am trying to find out is can they come and see him with stuff relevant to his defence but also get him to sign documents relating to the management of his companies.


I also think that GBC may appoint new lawyers to deal with Mr Dickie and all his lawyer's probings as to Allison's estate. GBC's criminal lawyers are already a bit busy with things to do for him and probably don't want to be involved in the civil side of GBC's problems.

 

[DrWatson]

Allison's directorship or being removed as a director does not affect her and now her estate's rights as a shareholder.

Thanks Alioop - I was a bit concerned, partly about the rights of the estate, but also about the liabilities of the estate if things were still being fiddled or manipulated by GBC, NBC, or their lawyers. I just hope that Allison's estate, and by proxy, Geoff Dickie, don't find themselves on the wrong end of a huge bill for legal representation to defend GBC on the one hand, and for the legal fees for selling the house that was apparently owned by WOTS on the other.

They really know how to make things complicated, don't they?

That would have really rubbed salt into the wound - having Allison's estate partly liable for the legal fees to defend GBC against the charge of murdering her..!

Never mind - it's probably just my overactive imagination working in its usual warped way :blushing:

 

[marlywings]

Mountain Misst I find it hard to believe a property so close to the water would be so cheap, even if prices are spiralling down. Prices go down and then up again. As an investment I would hang on to that property like my life depended on it simply because of its close proximity to water.

I honestly believe the bc clan are still very connected to that property through the new buyer. I think they just wanted the Dickies out.

This is just me speculating. I am no realestate whiz or anything.

I just had a look on realestate.com.au & there's another house for sale in that same street...offers over $450,000 so perhaps in the current market that is the going price for older style houses. Although as you say, a house in that location is worth holding on to, at least until the market rises again.

 

[enthralled]

I just had a look on realestate.com.au & there's another house for sale in that same street...offers over $450,000 so perhaps in the current market that is the going price for older style houses. Although as you say, a house in that location is worth holding on to, at least until the market rises again.

wish I had a spare $450,000.oo and I would snap it up now. rent it out for a while and hang on to it as long as I could. Please lotto, please

 

[enthralled]

Mountain Misst I find it hard to believe a property so close to the water would be so cheap, even if prices are spiralling down. Prices go down and then up again. As an investment I would hang on to that property like my life depended on it simply because of its close proximity to water.

I honestly believe the bc clan are still very connected to that property through the new buyer. I think they just wanted the Dickies out.

This is just me speculating. I am no realestate whiz or anything.

my apologies to mountain misst after hearing another property in the street is advertised at such a low price also.

 

[Amee]

wish I had a spare $450,000.oo and I would snap it up now. rent it out for a while and hang on to it as long as I could. Please lotto, please

Id buy it at that price and either rent it out or knock it down build a new home.
Its on a nice size block of land. Anything near water is usually worth a bit.
Bargain!

 

[Mountain Misst]

Mountain Misst I find it hard to believe a property so close to the water would be so cheap, even if prices are spiralling down. Prices go down and then up again. As an investment I would hang on to that property like my life depended on it simply because of its close proximity to water.

I honestly believe the bc clan are still very connected to that property through the new buyer. I think they just wanted the Dickies out.

This is just me speculating. I am no realestate whiz or anything.

Owners Name(s): Owners Address:
WOTS – WORLD OF TOP STEP PTY LTD
SUITE 324, 58 HIGH ST, TOOWONG, QLD 4066

For Sale History
Current Listing Status: For SaleDays Listed: 22 Days% Listing Change:
Listing Price: Date: Agency Name: Agent Name: Phone:
Auction 16/08/2012 (snip) (snip)
For Sale 16/08/2012 (snip)

Address: (snipped by MM), PARADISE POINT, QLD 4216
Type: House
Area: 506 m²

Last Sale Date: 09/07/2001
Last Sale Price: $165,000
Sale Estimate $446,861
Probable Range: $403k – $491k

Paradise Point in on the Broadwater not the ocean - and with respect, this is the hard-earned retiree's quiet address at the northern end of the Gold Coast.

If your nose were in the air and plastic in your wallet, you may call it the poor man's Sanctuary Cove. None of us fit that criteria now do we?

 

[Aunty]

I agree Blue Bottle that the mortgage, if any on this property and caveats, if any need to be paid out regardless. However, wouldn't it be prudent to have a say in how the residual funds are dispersed? I just hope that the Trustees and Administrator of one said Trustee lodge what they can to ASIC in order to gain enough control to overturn this sale. That means acting RIGHT NOW to fall within the 5 day cooling off period. Failing this cut off it would still be beneficial to be able to disperse funds.

A level 1 or level 2 tier accountant would have the knowledge I would think to really help out right now. Price Waterhouse or William Buck come to mind as firms I might turn to in this situation.

I'm just concerned that he has done a secret sale to his lawyers to cover his fees. They will make sure the sale is watertight if that is the case.
Scenario I
They (GBC and solicitor)agree on an accurate value of say $ 1mill ( being unit land with water views)
The solicitor and GBC agree that they will buy the property for $400,000 so GBC can clear the mortgage and pay the realestate agents fees.
The solicitor makes a secret profit of say $ 600,000 .
GBC pays less capital gains tax on the sale and the solicitor has money ( but in property)
GBC has also managed to put his legal fees payment before his other creditors waiting for the money he still owes them.
I read somewhere that one of his solicitors , is about to be disbarred for shonky tax evasion and similar under the table deals with clients , so it does go on with shonky solicitors, and some solicitors will do anything for money.
They probably devised and used their knowledge of the LAW to do the deal.
The court should ask for full and frank disclosure of all solicitor bills and payments.
Scenario 2
OW could be paying his solicitor bills via another new company ( with shareholders who donated when she sent out that email begging for money) If the property was sold to this new company, then the shareholders would now jointly own a 1mill property that was purchased for $400,000

I am just trying to work out what they are all up to.
Follow the solicitor fees and who is paying them. OW stands out big time.

 

[DrWatson]

I read somewhere that one of his solicitors , is about to be disbarred for shonky tax evasion and similar under the table deals with clients , so it does go on with shonky solicitors, and some solicitors will do anything for money.

Hi Aunty I think you're probably referring to Michael Bosscher, who was one of the "ambulance chasers" who tried to get on GBC's team, being a high profile case. Chris Nyst was the other one. We've heard nothing of either of those since, in relation to GBC.

However, Bosscher is either about to be bankrupted, or has just managed to put things off for a little while, including being disbarred (is that the right expression, Alioop?).

Of interest, though, is that the same Michael Bosscher is representing the defendant in the Daniel Morcombe case - presumably on Legal Aid.

 

[Makara]

So it seems that the committal hearing has been set down for 26 November. I don't know how I missed this!

Baden-Clay is in Arthur Gorrie Correctional Centre awaiting a committal hearing on November 26, which is expected to run for two weeks before being adjourned until January.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ntrol-her-estate/story-e6freon6-1226465022390

 

[alioop]

I'm not so sure if that is necessarily in the best interest. I have no idea if the so claimed mortage on that house is being paid regularly and if it is not being paid regularly, then the losses could be such that the bank seizes the house anyway and forces a sale which could easily be at a lower cost that it is being 'sold' for now. That sort of situation where the banks can do that easily is pure evil as far as I'm concerned. But then, that's another story.

Being a Company Director can be complicated business and even though Allison is no longer one because of her death (that's normal practice to take a name off at death), that does not mean her estate isn't liable for some of debt that has been incurred while she was Director. Depends on so many viariables and how things were set up.

Mr Dickie has a huge task ahead of him and not an easy one by any means. If he's not Business and Legal savvy he would need the Legal people to do it for him and that costs many many dollars. Too many dollars.

Excellent post Blue Bottle.

So it seems that the committal hearing has been set down for 26 November. I don't know how I missed this!

Baden-Clay is in Arthur Gorrie Correctional Centre awaiting a committal hearing on November 26, which is expected to run for two weeks before being adjourned until January.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ntrol-her-estate/story-e6freon6-1226465022390

As if you would have missed that Makara!. You haven't. Its a stuff up by the courier mail. That is the details for the Morcombe committal as per link http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-05/procedural-hearing-today-for-morcombe-case/4243466

 

[Liadan]

I just had a look on realestate.com.au & there's another house for sale in that same street...offers over $450,000 so perhaps in the current market that is the going price for older style houses. Although as you say, a house in that location is worth holding on to, at least until the market rises again.

Marley - generally sale price is dependent on the SIZE of the property - so if the one he just sold was (just for example) say 10sqm and $1000 dollars and the one up the street is 30sqm and still $1000 then we need to worry. I don't know of any of the details of property so we would need to really compare them on their basic and fundamental attributes before we make a judgement.

I only advise because it seems to me that GBC would know that he is only getting half then has to pay capital gains tax - so half of something is better than half of nothing!!!!!

 

[Keentoknow]

Keentoknow could you answer a couple of questions for me please. If GBC is meeting with his lawyers in remand, will they have a contact visit so they can sit at a table and look at documents together? Also if the lawyers have something for him to sign does the remand authorities have to give approval to him signing it.? What I am trying to find out is can they come and see him with stuff relevant to his defence but also get him to sign documents relating to the management of his companies.



I also think that GBC may appoint new lawyers to deal with Mr Dickie and all his lawyer's probings as to Allison's estate. GBC's criminal lawyers are already a bit busy with things to do for him and probably don't want to be involved in the civil side of GBC's problems.

His POA would be able to sign documents.

http://www.correctiveservices.qld.gov.au/Resources/Visitors/Legal_Practitioners/index.shtml

http://www.correctiveservices.qld.g...rrectional_Centre_Legal_Visits_Fact_Sheet.pdf

 

[Nads]

Well thought out Auntie, but it's not a million dollar property. Onthehouse.com estimates $580000 to almost $650000 but I wouldn't think it would be any more than this. Although they only do estimates.

 

[Nads]

Double post.

 

[marlywings]

Excellent post Blue Bottle.



As if you would have missed that Makara!. You haven't. Its a stuff up by the courier mail. That is the details for the Morcombe committal as per link http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-05/procedural-hearing-today-for-morcombe-case/4243466

Yes it will be the committal hearing for Daniel's case. I posted the links a couple days back in the following thread if anyone's interested....

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7354&page=8

 

[KG1]

I just removed some posts. The issue is that we don't put the names and addresses of people not involved in crimes on the threads. What we can do is use initials and link to the sites with the information when sleuthing stuff on GBC.

If your post was removed and you want it restored with a link, please contact Marlywings and she'll fix it for you when time allows.

Remember, next time use initials and links to your site and make sure it ties in with MSM reports (and I think these posts did tie in to the crime, so no problem there).

:cheers:

Kimster, you must be very happy with the news out of the US today (our time). Drew Peterson has been found GUILTY by a jury of his peers, of the murder of Kathleen Savio. He's facing 60 years jail, but his defence lawyer states that there will be an appeal. Wish they could get him for Stacy Peterson too. Off topic I know, but in light of your avatar, I know you will be very happy, along with thousands of others. Another real sleaze!

 

[marlywings]

Marley - generally sale price is dependent on the SIZE of the property - so if the one he just sold was (just for example) say 10sqm and $1000 dollars and the one up the street is 30sqm and still $1000 then we need to worry. I don't know of any of the details of property so we would need to really compare them on their basic and fundamental attributes before we make a judgement.

I only advise because it seems to me that GBC would know that he is only getting half then has to pay capital gains tax - so half of something is better than half of nothing!!!!!

The other house is on same size block of land, the house itself is similar size also. If anything this other house is a newer style of house so seems to me that would be around about the asking price for that type of house/size block in that area in today's market.

 

[alioop]

His POA would be able to sign documents.

http://www.correctiveservices.qld.gov.au/Resources/Visitors/Legal_Practitioners/index.shtml

http://www.correctiveservices.qld.g...rrectional_Centre_Legal_Visits_Fact_Sheet.pdf

Thanks Keentoknow.
From the info in the link it seems that lawyers can have their clients sign legal documents.
"If private interview rooms are not available, it is possible to ask visits staff about possible alternatives. For example, staff may be able to place you
in a non-contact booth and ensure that no other personal/legal visits are occurring in the neighbouring booths to maintain client confidentiality. Staff can assist with the signing of documents in such cases. Alternatively, you may request to be placed in the general contact visits area but separate from other social visits that are occurring, to provide privacy to discuss court matters."

BBM. I guess what I am getting at is the POA is no good for any signing by GBC in his capacity as a director so could he sign documents personally as director from remand.