Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #41

[alioop]

wouldn't Allison have broken bones if thrown/pushed over the bridge ?

We know from the second bail hearing that she didn't have any broken bones but Doc Watson has previously posted that a dead body thrown from a bridge may not break any bones. If she was still in the same place where she ended up from being thrown off the bridge, we know that was muddy which may have contributed to no broken bones.

 

[Maigret]

We know from the second bail hearing that she didn't have any broken bones but Doc Watson has previously posted that a dead body thrown from a bridge may not break any bones. If she was still in the same place where she ended up from being thrown off the bridge, we know that was muddy which may have contributed to no broken bones.

Would it have been apparent that she was thrown ? Perhaps that's why they are saying she wasn't washed down

 

[Couldbe]

Would it have been apparent that she was thrown ? Perhaps that's why they are saying she wasn't washed down

Link refers:http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...e-supreme-court/story-e6freoof-1226536987434#
"4.04pm: Mr Boyle said Mrs Baden-Clay's body was found 14km away from the couple's home at Brookfield, at the Kholo Creek bridge.
He said there was no evidence she'd fallen, adding the water level was below the place where her body was found.
"Within a very short time of her being dead she was in that position," he said.
"This is 14km away from his house, where, if he did kill Mrs Baden-Clay at the house and move her, it would have been within a very short period of time that she ended up in that particular position under the bridge."

....wonder what would be clarified as 'a very short time'?
The last paragraph ....could he be implying that GBC (travelling at av 65 kph) would have taken at least 25 mins to get out there and dispose of Allison into that position under the bridge.
If her death occurred at his house, then allowing time for getting her body into the vehicle and adding this onto the other 25 mins, this would then be outside of the 'very short time'. JMO

 

[DrWatson]

We know from the second bail hearing that she didn't have any broken bones but Doc Watson has previously posted that a dead body thrown from a bridge may not break any bones. If she was still in the same place where she ended up from being thrown off the bridge, we know that was muddy which may have contributed to no broken bones.

Sorry for the brevity - bit busy - but three points:

1. A totally relaxed body (eg dead or drunk) can sustain surprisingly little in the way of broken bones in what would otherwise be a significant fall, due to the absence of trying to break the fall, and breaking the arm or leg instead. We regularly see drunks who have fallen over walls and down banks with no broken bones at all. Fri/Sat night PFO parade (Pissed and Fell Over) - happens every week!

2. The mud and scrub may have broken the fall

3. While she was found in a position that was several feet down from the bridge level, there's nothing to say that she wasn't rolled over the edge a bit closer to where creek bank is much closer up to the bridge, and she simply rolled further down to the final resting place. We can't necessarily assume that she dropped where she was found. When the police say that she was placed in that position soon after death, they are referring to the position of the livor mortis and other signs that she hadn't moved. But an initial roll down the bank wouldn't have changed that - it takes a few hours for livor mortis to develop - usually 3-4 hours at least.

And when the police refer to her as being above the water level, I'm assuming that they are saying that she remained high and dry during that flood surge, and the position she was in was the position she had been in since that first night. That did surprise me a bit, as I, along with most here, assumed that she got washed downstream on the flood surge, and just snagged up under the bridge where she was found - but it would seem not.

OK - back to the real world

 

[Judicious]

thanks Alioop and Doc, I didn't think of the soft muddy landing. I was just thinking because Allison would have been so active before her death fighting off her murderer that when she was killed that rigor mortis would have set in immediately and knowing it doesn't leave the body for sometime that if Allison was thrown there not long after her death there may have been broken bones.
thanks again Alioop and Doc for your great imfo

 

[Judicious]

Hi Doc, Just a question relating to your last post 'point #1..drunk and dead bodies being relaxed.....I'm under the understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong ) that if you are very active when your heart stops beating, as Allison would have been fighting off her murderer then Rigor Mortis sets in immediately...is that not why often when someone is fighting for their life a piece of hair will be found in their closed fist as Rigor Mortis set in immediately. hence their would not be relaxed. please correct me if I'm wrong as I am not a Doctor.

 

[they'll get you]

I am appalled he dropped Allison over the side of a bridge with total selfishness, total disregard to this lovely woman, mother to his children & daughter to decent people. I hope his nightmares of Allison's last moments haunt him forever. Some murderers might go to to extra effort of burying a body even if it is to hide it properly with some dignity but no not this bloke, his wouldn't exert himself. He absolutely disgusts me.

 

[DrWatson]

Hi Doc, Just a question relating to your last post 'point #1..drunk and dead bodies being relaxed.....I'm under the understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong ) that if you are very active when your heart stops beating, as Allison would have been fighting off her murderer then Rigor Mortis sets in immediately...is that not why often when someone is fighting for their life a piece of hair will be found in their closed fist as Rigor Mortis set in immediately. hence their would not be relaxed. please correct me if I'm wrong as I am not a Doctor.

Not quite right there, Judicious. Perhaps a popular misconception with all these CSI shows on TV, which have almost nothing to do with real world forensics.

Rigor mortis (i.e.the stiffening) sets on in 3-4 hours usually, reaches a maximum at about 12 hours, then passes off (from top to bottom incidentally) over the next 24-48 hours.

Livor mortis, to which I referred in the post above, is the gravitational pooling of blood and blood pigments, indicating the position that the body had been lying in. For example, if a body is lying on its back, then the livor mortis (a.k.a. lividity) shows up as a blueish-purplish blotchy discolouration on the bit that was lowest - the back. The limbs reflect this also. So you can assess what position a body was in due to the position of the livor mortis - which is what I think the prosecution were referring to in the bail hearing. They were suggesting that due to the livor mortis, the body would appear to have been in the same position since shortly after death (i.e 3-4 hours) as the livor mortis would indicate no change in that position.

Livor mortis stays put, whereas rigor mortis fades away over 48-72 hours post mortem. But both take 3-4 hours to set in. It's not instantaneous, even if the victim is high on adrenaline fighting for their life. The main factor that can vary the onset time is the ambient temperature - which would have been taken into account in Allison's case.

Hope that makes sense...

 

[Maigret]

Not quite right there, Judicious. Perhaps a popular misconception with all these CSI shows on TV, which have almost nothing to do with real world forensics.

Rigor mortis (i.e.the stiffening) sets on in 3-4 hours usually, reaches a maximum at about 12 hours, then passes off (from top to bottom incidentally) over the next 24-48 hours.

Livor mortis, to which I referred in the post above, is the gravitational pooling of blood and blood pigments, indicating the position that the body had been lying in. For example, if a body is lying on its back, then the livor mortis (a.k.a. lividity) shows up as a blueish-purplish blotchy discolouration on the bit that was lowest - the back. The limbs reflect this also. So you can assess what position a body was in due to the position of the livor mortis - which is what I think the prosecution were referring to in the bail hearing. They were suggesting that due to the livor mortis, the body would appear to have been in the same position since shortly after death (i.e 3-4 hours) as the livor mortis would indicate no change in that position.

Livor mortis stays put, whereas rigor mortis fades away over 48-72 hours post mortem. But both take 3-4 hours to set in. It's not instantaneous, even if the victim is high on adrenaline fighting for their life. The main factor that can vary the onset time is the ambient temperature - which would have been taken into account in Allison's case.

Hope that makes sense...

So if she had been washed down the livor mortis would not have matched her position so it was immediately obvious

 

[Judicious]

Thanks heaps Doc, Thanks for clarifying that Doc...I know all the other stuff re Rigor Mortis how long it normally takes to set in and how long it lasts and Lavidity..and how they can tell if a body has been moved due to lavidity etc...however I always believed that if someone was killed whilst their muscles were tense in a struggle that Rigor Mortis set in immediately and now I know that's not true..thank you... and no I don't watch CSI..to false for me .. however I do watch the CI chanel on fox as they have true crimes on (the Beaumont Kiddies tonight)... (I was going to wait till my son came to pick up the kids later to ask him that question as he's a Doctor,but it got the better of me )..thanks again Doc

 

[DrWatson]

So if she had been washed down the livor mortis would not have matched her position so it was immediately obvious

Exactly.

 

[DrWatson]

Thanks heaps Doc, Thanks for clarifying that Doc...I know all the other stuff re Rigor Mortis how long it normally takes to set in and how long it lasts and Lavidity..and how they can tell if a body has been moved due to lavidity etc...however I always believed that if someone was killed whilst their muscles were tense in a struggle that Rigor Mortis set in immediately and now I know that's not true..thank you... and no I don't watch CSI..to false for me .. however I do watch the CI chanel on fox as they have true crimes on (the Beaumont Kiddies tonight)... (I was going to wait till my son came to pick up the kids later to ask him that question as he's a Doctor,but it got the better of me )..thanks again Doc

You're very welcome

 

[BreakingNews]

Exactly.

But she wasn't washed down, so L.M. should have been the same?

 

[DrWatson]

But she wasn't washed down, so L.M. should have been the same?

Yes. That's what it seems like - the assumption from the prosecution's statements at the bail hearing would imply that the livor mortis matched the position in which she was found. There could have been other things too, such as the impression in the mud, perhaps the impact in the dirt from where she landed... those are complete guesses of course, but may be the sort of thing that would corroborate the evidence of the livor mortis.

 

[Judicious]

Hi Doc, my son's just left and tells me it's actually called Cadaveric Spasm (another name for it being 'instant rigor'). It causes muscle stiffening that occurs the moment your deceased usually if you have died a violent or drowning death. It often gets confused with Rigor Mortis because the dead person usually still has it when R.M. sets in. Hence this is why parts of material/hair from the persons killer have been found in closed fists...hence the death grip...

 

[Couldbe]

Hi Doc, my son's just left and tells me it's actually called Cadaveric Spasm (another name for it being 'instant rigor'). It causes muscle stiffening that occurs the moment your deceased usually if you have died a violent or drowning death. It often gets confused with Rigor Mortis because the dead person usually still has it when R.M. sets in. Hence this is why parts of material/hair from the persons killer have been found in closed fists...hence the death grip...

The way I see it, for Cadaveric Spasm to have occurred, and for Allison to have ended up in that particular position under the bridge, her death would have been brought about virtually at the bridge area.

 

[alioop]

Could anyone help me out with reminding me what time Scraps the dog was said to be going crazy at the back fence. Thanks.

 

[LadyBird1]

Hi Doc, my son's just left and tells me it's actually called Cadaveric Spasm (another name for it being 'instant rigor'). It causes muscle stiffening that occurs the moment your deceased usually if you have died a violent or drowning death. It often gets confused with Rigor Mortis because the dead person usually still has it when R.M. sets in. Hence this is why parts of material/hair from the persons killer have been found in closed fists...hence the death grip...

Hmm Now that is interesting. Agree with Doc W about the 3 hours or so with Rigor Mortis; but you have brought in a brand new notion with this Cadaveric Spasm.
Bear in mind, that her killer thought he/she would have reckoned on cleverness in eliminating all evidences in closed fists.
Circumventing the Law by whatever means available was possibly foremost in priorities.

 

[alioop]

There is 200 to 300 mm of rain predicted for greater brisbane area this weekend. Maybe similar conditions to the rainfall after Allison went missing. Could locals please keep an eye on the water levels at Kholo creek crossing for us and maybe take some photos if there is a lot of water. Stay safe of course.

 

[marlywings]

Could anyone help me out with reminding me what time Scraps the dog was said to be going crazy at the back fence. Thanks.

I don't recall a time being given for when the infamous Scraps started barking. The reports from back then...

April 24, 2012

A resident on a neighbouring property said her dog was disturbed on the night Ms Baden-Clay disappeared.

"It is unusual for Scraps as she is never yapping, but she went crazy on Thursday night ... she went out like a bullet down the yard and kept barking," she said.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...lison-baden-clay/story-e6freoof-1226336572342

April 23, 2012

The Brookfield resident said a fellow neighbour told her of their dog barking in the yard, which shares a fence with the Baden-Clays.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ng-in-brookfield/story-e6freoof-1226335681703