Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #43

[GEANIE]

Late in the afternoon on day three of the committal hearing, Phillip Broom, one time business partner of Gerard Baden-Clay took the stand. Under cross examination by Mr. Davis for the defence Mr. Broom pulled no punches in regard to what he knew about GBC's affair with Toni McHugh. I feel sure that there is a lot more to come from Phillip Broom but this was the committal hearing, not a trial.

What is interesting is that at almost the same time as Phillip Broom was in the witness stand, GBC's sister Olivia Walton chose to walk outside of the court building with a contingent of media in tow. She proceeded to give her 'interview', as many of us have now seen. Clearly a tactic to draw media attention away from what Phillip Broom was saying about GBC and his affair with Toni McHugh. Did she think she was so important that the media would drop everything in court just so that they could hang on her every word? Of course she did! Thankfully some media representatives did report on Phillip Broom's testimony, which was so much more riveting than Olivia Walton's inane ramblings.

For the record, I want to include here two excerpts from Phillip Broom's testimony (albeit very similar) from day three of the committal hearing so that it is not lost in the self absorbed and cunning tactics of Olivia Walton or OW, as she has now been dubbed by many.

What I also find interesting is that Olivia Walton slipped out of the courtroom at lunchtime and was followed by the media. She had the opportunity at that stage to grant them an interview. Why didn't she? Probably hungry, it was lunchtime after all. Must get the priorities right.

MSM Transcripts of Phillip Broom's statement on day three of the committal hearing.

1. The court was told Baden-Clay had many conversations with his former business partner from Century 21 Westside, Phillip Broom, about the affair with Ms McHugh.

Mr Broom said Baden-Clay spoke of needing a bigger car to ferry around both his own children and Ms McHugh's.

"At some points Gerard was leaving his wife to be with Toni, at other points he was leaving Toni to remain with his wife," Mr Broom told the court.

"As complex as it was in nature, it was confusing to me as to whether or not they were in the throes of an affair, had cooled off in their affair (or) had rekindled their affair."

But defence barrister Peter Davis said Mr Broom's business relationship with Baden-Clay "didn't end well".

"You obviously don't like him ... do you?" Mr Davis asked Mr Broom.

"You want to say that you're just giving honest evidence here - but you're here to sink the boot in, aren't you?"

Mr Broom disagreed, saying he and Baden-Clay had a "healthy respect" for each other's business skills.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...edge-in-business/story-e6freoof-1226596787533

2. Mr Broom, however, said he first noticed the affair the following year.

‘‘[It was] at one of our staff member’s engagement party ... I remember it being a confirmation that potentially something was happening’’.

Mr Broom said he and Mr Baden-Clay discussed the affair on many occasions thereafter.

It was complex, Mr Broom said.

‘‘It was difficult to judge whether he was leaving his wife to be with Toni, or he was leaving Toni to be with his wife.

"As complex as it was in nature, it was confusing to me as to whether or not they were in the throes of an affair, had cooled off in their affair or had rekindled their affair."

However, he recalled Mr Baden-Clay and Ms McHugh discussing the need for a larger car to accommodate his three daughters and her two sons, while on a business trip to Sydney.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...court-hears-20130313-2g0yz.html#ixzz2NTuGNOrL

Olivia Walton - out to lunch.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ic-gaze-in-court/story-e6freoof-1226595105748

Olivia Walton's interview.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...ister-of-gerard-badenclay-20130313-2g0z2.html

Olivia, may I call you Livvy?

Lord. Love. Lust. Loud (screams). Lawyers. Ligature. Lividity. So many 'L' words come to mind Livvy but the one that stands out to me above all others is LIAR. And of course there are a lot of people who feel livid at a senseless loss of life - the murder of Allison Baden-Clay. May she rest in peace.

My opinion only and not that of Websleuths.

Think you'll find TM's boys are twins and about 12 ish, also at least an older brother in 20's

 

[Judicious]

Yes, I don't think that is exactly the image he meant to portray to the rest of the world. World's greatest lover and all.

I have quiet a chuckle with visual images of him...I also have a chuckle at what I wrote in my previous post :banghead: maybe I'm sleep deprived!!!! If G did use a CPAP and removed it to go to the bathroom, then that WOULD be evidence that he wasn't a sound sleeper. :banghead:

roll on Monday

 

[Obsessor]

Still gobsmacked by FirstTimers post about what was going on in court. I cant believe the hide of GBC asking for them to be moved, becasue he was feeling uncomfortable. What sort of man would do this? He is despicable and cowardly.
I too wish he didn't have a corner in that box in which he can hide.

Would he have been taken to the court room before the day to see where he would be put etc? Its just that he seemed to go straight into the corner like he knew that where he would sit?

 

[linette]

I agree totally Linette, I have this visual image of him laying next to one of his many floosies with the mask and tube all hooked up :floorlaugh: don't think that would be his style.... My Husband has a CPAP and the mask has to be removed if u go to the bathroom through the night, so if G did have a machine I don't believe they could take that as evidence as all he would have to say is that he removed it when he went to the bathroom and has forgotten to put the mask back on.

MOO

That vision was in my head too. lol

 

[alioop]

Still gobsmacked by FirstTimers post about what was going on in court. I cant believe the hide of GBC asking for them to be moved, becasue he was feeling uncomfortable. What sort of man would do this? He is despicable and cowardly.
I too wish he didn't have a corner in that box in which he can hide.

Would he have been taken to the court room before the day to see where he would be put etc? Its just that he seemed to go straight into the corner like he knew that where he would sit?

No he would not have been given a preview tour. When he walked into the courtroom that would be the first time he was in that room.

 

[Judicious]

Still gobsmacked by FirstTimers post about what was going on in court. I cant believe the hide of GBC asking for them to be moved, becasue he was feeling uncomfortable. What sort of man would do this? He is despicable and cowardly.
I too wish he didn't have a corner in that box in which he can hide.

Would he have been taken to the court room before the day to see where he would be put etc? Its just that he seemed to go straight into the corner like he knew that where he would sit?

He may have asked his Lawyer the layout of the new court room so he knew where to sit and which way to face before he entered. If he was innocent I believe he would have faced everyone, looked them in the eye and not been such a coward.

my opinion only

 

[Judicious]

I would like to know if when they have each break does G get returned to the holding cell to have his lunch. I would imagine he gets taken into the court in hand cuffs. If he does have to wear hand cuffs then I would think that would be very humiliating for him.

 

[Obsessor]

Alioop, does it appear to you that Olivia is a witness for the committal? I hear she is not doing what the other witnesses are- sitting where they do etc?
If not. I wonder why she isn't sitting in the court listening??

(although I suppose if you haven't heard, you cant be accused of knowing what has been presented can you???)

 

[linette]

Sorry, I timed out before I'd posted the above and lost the post, and I meant to add this- with each press statement I have seen of Olivia, and the written statement announcing Allisons death by her husband Ian, I fail to feel the sincerity they are trying to put across. I see they are trying, but to me they come across detatched and appear to be acting.

MOO

I agree with what you said in both posts.

Yes, very detached. Infact if she was an actress playing that part in a movie I'd be saying she was a bad one. Not convincing, but seems like she is trying to convince us.
If she loved Allison so much why were her first media outings focussed on her brother? ...ofcourse there was the odd "allison come home" thrown in... but nuh.

I wonder if her normal demeanor {pre Allisons death} was also shaky & nervous? Is that the way she is? I'd be interested to know whether this behaviour is very out of character for her.
I know a couple of people that always look and appear stressed in the way they talk and act, even if they're not. I'm just curious. In my mind I am 100% certain she knows more. She can't really believe he is innocent.

It would be interesting to know what her relationship was like with Allison. were they close at one time... or did they just have the obligatory 'sister-in-law' relationship?
Or was their not much friendship there at all? We don't know any of this.

Her little press conference thing left me thinking "Why did she even bother doing it?" It lacked any depth, said alot yet said nothing.

Once you think why did she bother, it makes you really start thinking about WHY she did it.

 

[linette]

Still gobsmacked by FirstTimers post about what was going on in court. I cant believe the hide of GBC asking for them to be moved, becasue he was feeling uncomfortable. What sort of man would do this? He is despicable and cowardly.
I too wish he didn't have a corner in that box in which he can hide.

Would he have been taken to the court room before the day to see where he would be put etc? Its just that he seemed to go straight into the corner like he knew that where he would sit?

I know, the part about wanting her family removed got to me the most out of all of it. I mean, who does he think he is? The more I learn the more convinced I am that he is NEVER going to fess up. NEVER!!! I hope I'm wrong.

 

[bearbear]

In the initial statement by Olivia to the Media: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ry-disappearance/story-e6freoof-1226338290711 'yesterday broke down as she spoke on behalf of her brother, and detailed the strain and grief that the family has had to bear since Allison's disappearance a week ago' -
'Ms Walton said in the days leading up to her disappearance, Allison was her usual self.'
"I spoke to her the night before she disappeared on Thursday night and she seemed fine," she said.
"I saw her last week and she seemed normal, delightful - her normal, easygoing, beautiful-natured, thoughtful, kind-hearted self.
"As far as I know there have been no, there is no, we don't know anything about Allison's whereabouts."
"Allison suffers from depression, my thoughts are simply consumed with where she might be. I'm not interested in the speculation and rumours."

..... what conflicting statements appeared to have been uttered by Olivia! The inference seemed to be that Allison had taken off to somewhere.

GBC's Barrister has suggested that suicide was a possibility. At the Committal, Dr Hoskins also told the court he did not believe Mrs Baden-Clay had a fatal toxic level of an anti-depressant drug in her system, but he could not rule it out.

NOW yesterday .......Meanwhile, Baden-Clay's sister Olivia Walton today proclaimed her firm belief that he was innocent.

Outside the court, she appealed for police to investigate every avenue. (No talk of depression any more!)
So now what is the inference?
Following what she knows was discussed at the Committal, Olivia appears to have accepted the unlikelihood of suicide!!

Is this a step closer in the process of elimination by Olivia in establishing/revealing the strongest possibility of what happened to Allison!

notice she uses the same phrase "as far as i know" when saying she doesnt know anything about allisons whereabouts, like she did this week outside court. i guess in her mind as long as she says that shes not lying?

 

[DrWatson]

Question regarding the Telstra phone records presented (in the 2nd bail hearing):
see CM: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...re-supreme-court/story-e6freoof-1226536987434



Has anyone seen these phone records? Are they available for purchase by the general public?

Yes and Yes. But not a lot of help. Nothing much in there we don't already know. And some is downright puzzling, until you realize how an iPhone "locates" all towers in the vicinity even though it doesn't connect to them. The location data, in particular, is pretty useless - it suggests his phone connected to multiple towers, VERY widely spaced, most not being in line of sight of any one spot even when triangulated, and with identical timestamps.

See here for why the location data from the phone and from the telcos would be not much use, especially in an area like Brookfield with sparse distribution of towers:

http://tomstokes.wordpress.com/2011/04/21/preliminary-analysis-of-the-iphone-location-log/

And

http://wellpreparedmind.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/detailed-analysis-of-iphone-location-data/

Apologies to the non tech-heads for those, but I think people like CaptB and others would find them particularly interesting, and enlightening as to the problems of trying to analyse location data.

 

[linette]

notice she uses the same phrase "as far as i know" when saying she doesnt know anything about allisons whereabouts, like she did this week outside court. i guess in her mind as long as she says that shes not lying?

Yep. When someone says "as far as I know" or "to the best of my knowledge" it still leaves the door wide open. If they were to add "... but I'm going to do my best to find out." then you'd take them more seriously.
But if they just say that and don't want to know anything more than you just tend to discount what they've said.

 

[Obsessor]

In the initial statement by Olivia to the Media: http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ry-disappearance/story-e6freoof-1226338290711 'yesterday broke down as she spoke on behalf of her brother, and detailed the strain and grief that the family has had to bear since Allison's disappearance a week ago' -
'Ms Walton said in the days leading up to her disappearance, Allison was her usual self.'
"I spoke to her the night before she disappeared on Thursday night and she seemed fine," she said.
"I saw her last week and she seemed normal, delightful - her normal, easygoing, beautiful-natured, thoughtful, kind-hearted self.
"As far as I know there have been no, there is no, we don't know anything about Allison's whereabouts."
"Allison suffers from depression, my thoughts are simply consumed with where she might be. I'm not interested in the speculation and rumours."

..... what conflicting statements appeared to have been uttered by Olivia! The inference seemed to be that Allison had taken off to somewhere.

GBC's Barrister has suggested that suicide was a possibility. At the Committal, Dr Hoskins also told the court he did not believe Mrs Baden-Clay had a fatal toxic level of an anti-depressant drug in her system, but he could not rule it out.

NOW yesterday .......Meanwhile, Baden-Clay's sister Olivia Walton today proclaimed her firm belief that he was innocent.

Outside the court, she appealed for police to investigate every avenue. (No talk of depression any more!)
So now what is the inference?
Following what she knows was discussed at the Committal, Olivia appears to have accepted the unlikelihood of suicide!!

Is this a step closer in the process of elimination by Olivia in establishing/revealing the strongest possibility of what happened to Allison!

This post is really interesting Couldbe.
It demonstrates the jumbled, grasping at anything, absolutely anything explanations she was happy to come up with, except that her bother could have done it.
Frantic, covering all the innocent bases, but not cohesive, logical or consistent. Never looking for clues, information, pieces of the puzzle, just frantic grabbing for a quick fix.

 

[Happygolucky]

He may have asked his Lawyer the layout of the new court room so he knew where to sit and which way to face before he entered. If he was innocent I believe he would have faced everyone, looked them in the eye and not been such a coward.

my opinion only

If i was in court accuses of a crime for which I was innocent, I believe I would be sitting exacting where GBC was if I had the choice.. There are two seats in that corner (I know I went and looked) and they are obviously meant to be used. I would not want a court full on onlookers hanging on my every expression. Nevertheless I did have the opportunity on Monday morning to observe GBC for the morning session. After lunch a "reserved" sign had been placed by the Dickie family so I sat elsewhere. He did glance up occasionally at the gallery--the part that he could see and for the most part sat quietly in the corner, sometimes looking directly at witnesses, sometimes looking at the folder on his knee, sometimes putting on and taking off his reading glasses. I did not feel his behaviour inappropriate in what was obviouisly a very stressful situation.

After lunch he would have been made to feel very uncomfortable--a female from the Dickie family (she actually told me she was from the Dickie family when I sat next to her during the morning session), positioned herself side on and leaning slightly forward from the far left seat of the front row made it clear she was looking straight at him for the afternnoon. I thought I saw her
give him a wave but from what I gleaned from her brief comments to me during the morning, I am sure it was not meant to be a friendly wave. In the morning she had wanted to sit where she could see his face and it was quite clear to me that she could not stand GBC.

 

[Obsessor]

What I dont understand, is if you are accused of something you didnt do, you sit back and let other people speak for you. I wouldnt be able to do that. (never one to back down I must say.
Llike so many on here have said, if you were innocent, why wouldnt you reiterate this at every opportunity and scream it from the rooftops?
Even though they say, dont speak it could make you look worse, surely that really only applies to the guilty, where lying can be so hard to do convincingly, therefore you damn yourself more everytime you open your mouth.

To sit back and say nothing from day 1????? You are damning yourself anyhow.
I dont see why he would do that unless he knew he looked guilty.

 

[Obsessor]

Dr Watson, we should get Marly to add under your name, Verified Thoracic and Vascular Surgeon, and Tech-head. You're equally as good at both!!

 

[linette]

What I dont understand, is if you are accused of something you didnt do, you sit back and let other people speak for you. I wouldnt be able to do that. (never one to back down I must say.
Llike so many on here have said, if you were innocent, why wouldnt you reiterate this at every opportunity and scream it from the rooftops?
Even though they say, dont speak it could make you look worse, surely that really only applies to the guilty, where lying can be so hard to do convincingly, therefore you damn yourself more everytime you open your mouth.

To sit back and say nothing from day 1????? You are damning yourself anyhow.
I dont see why he would do that unless he knew he looked guilty.

Spot on.

Just think, there's a man who loved his wife and children and suddenly she goes missing. That would be shocking and he would ofcourse be doing everything he could to find her. Then just over a week later her body is discovered. OMG! His life will never be the same again, he has lost the woman he loves, and he worries for his children. How is he going to get them through this? What if whoever did this has a personal grudge against him? Wow, so he does all he can to protect his kids from not just the media, but from whoever is still out there. His parents and her family would all be beside themselves with grief.
The man would find it hard to be able to return to work under these horrific circumstances.

So... this seems very similar to what happened in this case, doesn't it?????? :what:

Oh that's right, he made a phone call to the police when she was 30 mins or so late and thought she should now be a missing person. Oh hang on, he also went back to work, didn't he? And what?? His family didn't do everything they could to drive the streets and look for her? OMG, are you telling me he called the insurance to check up on how much his wife was worth dead... even before her body was identified?????? Surely not!!

 

[AAAA]

Can anyone tell me if GBC would be taken back to Aurthur Gorrie each afternoon or would he be kept overnight in the watchouse cells?

 

[Obsessor]

Spot on.

Just think, there's a man who loved his wife and children and suddenly she goes missing. That would be shocking and he would ofcourse be doing everything he could to find her. Then just over a week later her body is discovered. OMG! His life will never be the same again, he has lost the woman he loves, and he worries for his children. How is he going to get them through this? What if whoever did this has a personal grudge against him? Wow, so he does all he can to protect his kids from not just the media, but from whoever is still out there. His parents and her family would all be beside themselves with grief.
The man would find it hard to be able to return to work under these horrific circumstances.

So... this seems very similar to what happened in this case, doesn't it?????? :what:

Oh that's right, he made a phone call to the police when she was 30 mins or so late and thought she should now be a missing person. Oh hang on, he also went back to work, didn't he? And what?? His family didn't do everything they could to drive the streets and look for her? OMG, are you telling me he called the insurance to check up on how much his wife was worth dead... even before her body was identified?????? Surely not!!

We know he no longer loved his wife, or he wouldnt have been having an affair, but he could still not have looked so guilty had he claimed he didn't do it- loudly!!!
He could have helped with the search by way of appealing for information just for the sake of the children if nothing else.