Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #43

[DrWatson]

Dr Watson, we should get Marly to add under your name, Verified Thoracic and Vascular Surgeon, and Tech-head. You're equally as good at both!!

LOL :floorlaugh:

Thanks Obby - but the Tech-head stuff just comes from a lifelong interest in all things technical, computers, and other boy "stuff"....

 

[linette]

We know he no longer loved his wife, or he wouldnt have been having an affair, but he could still not have looked so guilty had he claimed he didn't do it- loudly!!!
He could have helped with the search by way of appealing for information just for the sake of the children if nothing else.

I think he loved himself above all others. Probably thought everyone else should too.

 

[mrs plod]

Yes and Yes. But not a lot of help. Nothing much in there we don't already know. And some is downright puzzling, until you realize how an iPhone "locates" all towers in the vicinity even though it doesn't connect to them. The location data, in particular, is pretty useless - it suggests his phone connected to multiple towers, VERY widely spaced, most not being in line of sight of any one spot even when triangulated, and with identical timestamps.

See here for why the location data from the phone and from the telcos would be not much use, especially in an area like Brookfield with sparse distribution of towers:

Doc,
Is the spacing of the phone towers the reason phones were helpful in the Jill Meagher case? More towers in the city area? Do you think there is anything more police can do with the B C phones to gain more information?

 

[mrs plod]

Can someone point me to the info re Gerard telling kids

mummy might have fallen down a hole

? I had heard he said it but dont know where it came from.

 

[Judicious]

Yes and Yes. But not a lot of help. Nothing much in there we don't already know. And some is downright puzzling, until you realize how an iPhone "locates" all towers in the vicinity even though it doesn't connect to them. The location data, in particular, is pretty useless - it suggests his phone connected to multiple towers, VERY widely spaced, most not being in line of sight of any one spot even when triangulated, and with identical timestamps.

See here for why the location data from the phone and from the telcos would be not much use, especially in an area like Brookfield with sparse distribution of towers:


Doc,
Is the spacing of the phone towers the reason phones were helpful in the Jill Meagher case? More towers in the city area? Do you think there is anything more police can do with the B C phones to gain more information?

this maybe of help..The maximum distance between a cellphone and a cell tower depends on many different factors. The connecting technology, landscape features, the power of the transmitter in the tower, the size of the cellphone network cell and the design capacity of the network all play a role. Sometimes the celltower transmitter is set to low power on purpose so that it doesn't interfere with neighbouring cells. Often hills, trees or buildings interfere with transmission. Any of these factors might prevent you from getting a signal, even if a cell tower is quite close.

 

[DrWatson]

Doc,
Is the spacing of the phone towers the reason phones were helpful in the Jill Meagher case? More towers in the city area? Do you think there is anything more police can do with the B C phones to gain more information?

Well, I'm not a forensic tech, as you know, but I would think that the much more densely populated areas, and high traffic areas, like the freeways etc in Melbourne, would have a much higher ratio of phone cell towers per square kilometre. This, in turn, would allow much more accurate tracking as the phone was "handed off" from one tower to the next.

But out at Brookfield, we have the Brookfield tower near the exchange on Upper Brookfield Rd, the Kenmore Tower up in the main Kenmore shopping centre about 5Km away in one direction, and the nearest in the other direction would be the one at the Vet Farm at Pinjarra Hills - also several Km away. Brookfield is not surrounded by a close network of towers, compared to somewhere like a CBD, or that area in Melbourne where the accused drove Jill Meagher's body. Also, Brookfield is quite a hilly area, so line-of-sight connection to towers is quite variable. The BC house would be in direct line with the Telstra tower at the Brookfield exchange, and it MAY be able to connect to the Kenmore tower which is on Moggill Rd in the centre of Kenmore, right on the bend opposite the OLR church.

But the GBC phone records show the locations of towers from Chapel Hill, Mt Coot-tha, Kenmore, etc etc, and all with the identical timestamp. So that probably would be consistent with the phone just registering the database of all towers within a several Km radius at that time, as per those links I just posted above.

EDIT: Thanks Judicious - you posted while I was still typing Yes, and in particular, the lay of the land around Brookfield, being quite hilly, would be very different from the freeway etc in Melbourne. And as I said, the number of towers per square Km in Melbourne's high population suburbs would be much greater.

 

[linette]

MRS PLOD: Olivia told the police that morning that Gerard had explained their mothers absence by saying she had probably fallen down a hole... someone will supply a link I'm sure.

I've been searching for a link but most of the stuff coming up at the moment is other forums.

I can say though that it has been published.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

Well, I'm not a forensic tech, as you know, but I would think that the much more densely populated areas, and high traffic areas, like the freeways etc in Melbourne, would have a much higher ratio of phone cell towers per square kilometre. This, in turn, would allow much more accurate tracking as the phone was "handed off" from one tower to the next.

But out at Brookfield, we have the Brookfield tower near the exchange on Upper Brookfield Rd, the Kenmore Tower up in the main Kenmore shopping centre about 5Km away in one direction, and the nearest in the other direction would be the one at the Vet Farm at Pinjarra Hills - also several Km away. Brookfield is not surrounded by a close network of towers, compared to somewhere like a CBD, or that area in Melbourne where the accused drove Jill Meagher's body. Also, Brookfield is quite a hilly area, so line-of-sight connection to towers is quite variable. The BC house would be in direct line with the Telstra tower at the Brookfield exchange, and it MAY be able to connect to the Kenmore tower which is on Moggill Rd in the centre of Kenmore, right on the bend opposite the OLR church.

But the GBC phone records show the locations of towers from Chapel Hill, Mt Coot-tha, Kenmore, etc etc, and all with the identical timestamp. So that probably would be consistent with the phone just registering the database of all towers within a several Km radius at that time, as per those links I just posted above.

EDIT: Thanks Judicious - you posted while I was still typing Yes, and in particular, the lay of the land around Brookfield, being quite hilly, would be very different from the freeway etc in Melbourne. And as I said, the number of towers per square Km in Melbourne's high population suburbs would be much greater.

Perhaps the telco records (ie phone bills) would give a tech like our CaptB a little more insight into the possible phone movements (of both GBC's and ABC's phones) than the data extracted from GBC's phone by QPS forensic techs alone? Do you know Doc, if there are any details of these phone bills available that CaptB might be able to look at? (on MSM of course Marly )

 

[linette]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...baden-clays-face/story-e6freoof-1226537344568

MRS PLOD... here's a link. It's towards the end of the article {past the pics of his face and the razor}where they mention about falling down the hole.

 

[Obsessor]

One more thing, regarding the implausibility of Olivias statements, is the only suggestion she offers as to why Gerard was not involved is that he "loved" Allison.
She reiterates *we loved Allison", "Gerard loves Allison", and "I love her" statements, but in our minds we negate that because we know he was having not one but several affairs, one being serious enough that he was talking openly to people about leaving Allison for.

IF she is to believe Gerard,and convince us of his innocence, surely she needs more convincing than, "he loved her". I know we do.
What about offerring to the public a statment such as "he is a wonderful father, he would never wish this pain on his girls in a million years, " or something like, "he could never hurt anyone...this is killing him that he is under suspicion", because we cant go with the "loved her" clauses at all.

An allibi or reaonable alternative would be great Olivia. Enough of the love statements with nothing else please.

 

[Makara]

Think you'll find TM's boys are twins and about 12 ish, also at least an older brother in 20's

Yes Geanie, TM's twins are about that age or perhaps a little older. There are no older or younger children. :twocents:

 

[Couldbe]

Livvy is preaching.

The emphasised pauses, the choking back tears (non-existant and easily brushed aside yet again), the written sermon/statement, the furrowed brow, the deep contemplative facial expressions..... she is using a preaching technique, to make the congregation/listener believe she truly believes what she is telling us.

Delivering information that they are privvy to, but others may not be fully aware of, is what they do. This is how they live. I'm not criticising that in any way, but just commenting on the delivery of her message, and the slipping in of her additional little lie at the end, was just something else she wanted us to swallow once she had gained our trust.

I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt and say she is truly in denial, poor lady, but I cant. She has seen and heard far too much. Could be wrong.??

Thankyou for your post yesterday Crime and Pnishment. You are in a difficult position, as are all your fellow church friends. It must be quite uncomfortable at times dealing with the unspoken...as I imagine this is most of the time.

I was particularly interested in your opinion that Olivia is mistrusting ( i cant remember your word at the moment) of the police's investigation. I think GBC did his magic on her from the very first morning regarding this. He tried to do the same to Kerry-Ann but she saw the scratches. Olivia musn't have "seen" them (denial).

I'm wondering if the reason she is parading around outside the court room, not listening to the proceedings, and marching in and out like she owns the place etc, is a direct message to the police and prosecution that she doesn't believe any of the crap and therefore is not prepared to listen.???
She did state before that she was not interested in ruimour and innuendo. Maybe she is grasping onto that and has truly not considered the evidence as real, but as proof that GBC is being framed.

I dont know...just thoughts...hope you all dont mind my ramblings...

Obsessor .... what you say about a preaching technique is taken on board.

In trying to understand and interpret Olivia's comments to the Media and her actions:

Okay, GBC has said that he knew he would be a/the suspect. Olivia knew this too and said:
Link http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ry-disappearance/story-e6freoof-1226338290711 "I think with any missing persons case it is a mystery and people are always going to talk."

Damage control:-

Switching in and out of 'objective' and 'emotional':
Right from the beginning when Allison had been missing for a week, Olivia has uttered her summing up of the situation in an objective and intellectualising style with regard to the investigations by Police and the interest of the Media and the Public. This seems to have been uttered in the style of an 'observer' and making defensive statements of GBC's involvement.
Ms Walton said her brother, Gerard, was struggling to put on a brave front for the couple's three young daughters.

Switching into objective style: "He is understandably completely devastated," Ms Walton said.

"When he is not with the police he is here with the children, trying to be as normal as possible with them in what is an unthinkable situation.

"He is doing all that he can to assist in finding Allison and that is our primary concern."

Switching to her emotional side ...."(We) just cry out to her if she can hear us, if she sees this: Please, darling Al, come home. We love you so much and we want you home."

What's this style? Ms Walton said the family had not been distracted by the high-profile nature of Allison's disappearance, or the public speculation about where the 43-year-old might be.

Then switching to her emotional side ....... as well as articulating 'feelings' for Allison (not necessarily belonging to her) "I am overwhelmed by the support of the community, and I just want to thank them from the depths of our hearts for how much you love Allison," she said. (At this point, the large volume of interested Public didn't know Allison to actually love her ....... they were all doing everything they could trying to assist the Police in desperately searching for Allison.

Switch back to objective (well sort of emotional - love towards the Baden Clays too: "The support for the children, for Gerard, for Allison, for us as the extended family, has been unbelievable."

....... does look like it reflects some sort of 'damage control' style and
a controlled release of some considered thoughts .....(although as you have said: demonstrates the jumbled, grasping at anything, absolutely anything explanations she was happy to come up with, except that her brother could have done it.)

 

[The Falcon]

Yes and Yes. But not a lot of help. Nothing much in there we don't already know. And some is downright puzzling, until you realize how an iPhone "locates" all towers in the vicinity even though it doesn't connect to them. The location data, in particular, is pretty useless - it suggests his phone connected to multiple towers, VERY widely spaced, most not being in line of sight of any one spot even when triangulated, and with identical timestamps.

See here for why the location data from the phone and from the telcos would be not much use, especially in an area like Brookfield with sparse distribution of towers:

http://tomstokes.wordpress.com/2011/04/21/preliminary-analysis-of-the-iphone-location-log/

And

http://wellpreparedmind.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/detailed-analysis-of-iphone-location-data/

Apologies to the non tech-heads for those, but I think people like CaptB and others would find them particularly interesting, and enlightening as to the problems of trying to analyse location data.

The list of phone calls made on 19th PM and 20th AM would all be recorded on a phone bill. To a specific number, from a specific suburb, to a specific phone number. You have a time-line and an engaging of two parties, in conversation or texting. Also the length of time used. The police perhaps are keeping this under wraps as crucial evidence of a persons implication in the crime. It can prove the phone use. Can they say " Oh somebody else used my phone. It wasn't me. I was asleep all night." Yeah right!lease:

 

[Obsessor]

Obsessor .... what you say about a preaching technique is taken on board.

snipped for brevity

Sorry Couldbe, I should have said I was referring to the mini-sermon/statement she made to the media outside court the other day when I said she was preaching. I did mean that speech in particular.

 

[Obsessor]

Next she'll be saying- "he loved her, but he needed the money!" :what:

 

[DrWatson]

The list of phone calls made on 19th PM and 20th AM would all be recorded on a phone bill. To a specific number, from a specific suburb, to a specific phone number. You have a time-line and an engaging of two parties, in conversation or texting. Also the length of time used. The police perhaps are keeping this under wraps as crucial evidence of a persons implication in the crime. It can prove the phone use. Can they say " Oh somebody else used my phone. It wasn't me. I was asleep all night." Yeah right!lease:

Indeed - that is all on the phone records, which are available from the court. But I'm not able to refer to them here (WS rules) and the location data is quite misleading apart from the actual calls and texts made. What I'm trying to get at is that the calls themselves are locatable in both time and place and destination. But the geolocation data of the phone BETWEEN calls - and there are LONG gaps - is very misleading due to the reasons outlined in those two links I posted above.

 

[alioop]

Can anyone tell me if GBC would be taken back to Aurthur Gorrie each afternoon or would he be kept overnight in the watchouse cells?

He would be taken back to AG each night.

 

[alioop]

Indeed - that is all on the phone records, which are available from the court. But I'm not able to refer to them here (WS rules) and the location data is quite misleading apart from the actual calls and texts made. What I'm trying to get at is that the calls themselves are locatable in both time and place and destination. But the geolocation data of the phone BETWEEN calls - and there are LONG gaps - is very misleading due to the reasons outlined in those two links I posted above.

If there was any evidence found of middle of the night calls when he said he was asleep we would have heard about it by now. So I think it is fairly safe to say there aren't any, either mobile or landline.

 

[DunnoZo]

I agree totally Linette, I have this visual image of him laying next to one of his many floosies with the mask and tube all hooked up :floorlaugh: don't think that would be his style.... My Husband has a CPAP and the mask has to be removed if u go to the bathroom through the night, so if G did have a machine I don't believe they could take that as evidence as all he would have to say is that he removed it when he went to the bathroom and has forgotten to put the mask back on.

MOO

I feel your pain. I think it's worse for us who sleep next to them..

True if he used the bathroom excuse, but if the times do coincide with the details of the phone history it would be interesting. If he used the machine regularly (which I'm highly doubting) he wouldn't be on the couch all that much, but have a " regular" sleeping spot. The machine needs a table/tubes/etc. for those of you unfamiliar with it. A night w/o it makes my OH tired & cranky

A shout out to Mountain Mist, if you ever visit this site!:rocker:

 

[Makara]

The list of phone calls made on 19th PM and 20th AM would all be recorded on a phone bill. To a specific number, from a specific suburb, to a specific phone number. You have a time-line and an engaging of two parties, in conversation or texting. Also the length of time used. The police perhaps are keeping this under wraps as crucial evidence of a persons implication in the crime. It can prove the phone use. Can they say " Oh somebody else used my phone. It wasn't me. I was asleep all night." Yeah right!lease:

BBM:

Hi Falcon, the phone records are freely available for purchase and are not being kept under wraps by the police. They are part of GBC's affidavit for the second bail hearing. I've purchased these records but due to WS's TOS I'm unable to post or discuss them. Having said that, these records are for only one of GBC's many phones and it is my belief that he had many. So yes, police may in fact be withholding records from other phones at this time.

MOO.